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Thread: Aluminum Classic Valve

  1. #31
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    So, does a pneumag get around this issue because there is no feedback on the trigger reset from the on/off to trigger or does it still get disqualified simply because of the way the on/off functions?

    In other words the rules only look at how the function of the on/off works and not how the force is felt at the trigger.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by rawbutter View Post
    Can you put a classic on/off inside an x-valve to eliminate reactivity?
    Yes, but the trigger pull is really hard. Since you have direct line pressure acting on the pin in an Xvalve, the pull weight is probably 2/3 harder than a classic mag.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by zondo View Post
    So, does a pneumag get around this issue because there is no feedback on the trigger reset from the on/off to trigger or does it still get disqualified simply because of the way the on/off functions?

    In other words the rules only look at how the function of the on/off works and not how the force is felt at the trigger.
    This is a very interesting thread...

    I would think one (and possibly the main) reason for having an all mech league would be to limit ROF... and to me the pneumag would go against this concept the same way reactivity would... you can still rip on those things even though they don't have batteries (from my admittedly limited experience... I have only seen videos of them firing... but one can easily conclude you would have a very high ROF from seeing them)...

  4. #34
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    easiest fix is limited paint say 500 to 600 rounds per player passed out by officials 5 minutes prior to game start, all unused paint thrown in trash when leaving field under the watchful eye of an official.

    i'm sure the league doesn't want to work this hard so they will just ban markers they don't like.

  5. #35
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    I would vote for 1 full hopper, two pods, no sharing paint.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mondoatx View Post
    This is a very interesting thread...

    I would think one (and possibly the main) reason for having an all mech league would be to limit ROF... and to me the pneumag would go against this concept the same way reactivity would... you can still rip on those things even though they don't have batteries (from my admittedly limited experience... I have only seen videos of them firing... but one can easily conclude you would have a very high ROF from seeing them)...
    But it still takes skill to walk a pneumag for anything longer than 3-4 shots... and lots of tuning and practice. It's still pure semi and no guarantee on what the actual rate of fire would be like you would get with an e-gun. You do not have a board to make up for clumsy fingers and short stroking. Again, it is a physical skill.

    I say let it fly, if you can do it! Even let warpfeeds or other force fed hoppers in. the pool of people that can pull >13BPS on a pure mech trigger for longer than 4 rounds is not large.

  7. #37
    You can have reactivity without "bounce". If that's implied, then they really need to change the name of it. I think half the problem technically is people are just throwing words around without pinning down what they really mean.

    And by the way, force alone doesn't produce actual work.

    In some cases you can relate force to work ("this return force ratio *might* produce bounce in some guns"), but good luck crafting a rule where it is both effective *and* doesn't unnecessarily rule out certain configurations. Some guns will RT at 850PSI or less, some will never RT at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by zondo View Post
    So, does a pneumag get around this issue because there is no feedback on the trigger reset from the on/off to trigger or does it still get disqualified simply because of the way the on/off functions?

    In other words the rules only look at how the function of the on/off works and not how the force is felt at the trigger.
    I don't see a feedback path so it wouldn't be considered "reactive". It's just "a really light trigger". Whether or not it gets banned is, again, a matter up to the fickle, inconsistent minded rulemakers. It's a good litmus test to see what the spirit of the rulemakers really is.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mondoatx View Post
    This is a very interesting thread...

    I would think one (and possibly the main) reason for having an all mech league would be to limit ROF... and to me the pneumag would go against this concept the same way reactivity would... you can still rip on those things even though they don't have batteries (from my admittedly limited experience... I have only seen videos of them firing... but one can easily conclude you would have a very high ROF from seeing them)...
    OK, so this I think is the unspoken heart of the matter, and where we separate the men from the bearded lady-men.

    The mech question isn't about ROF, because you could just limit ROF and call it a day.

    It's not about paint limit because you could just limit paint and call it a day.

    It's about game design.

    You want to design games where choices have meaning.

    In current open play, if you want to go hard, it's a pretty easy choice. Pick up an electro gun with an electro hopper, go hose people. The choice is so easy that it's meaningless.

    But what if we were go around and kick everybody's crutches out from under them? "No batteries. Now what are you going to do?"

    Now people have to start making equipment choices which actually mean something.

    It is exactly the same thing as when a video game maker goes in and nerfs a certain aspect of the game when it becomes boringly overpowered. They nerf that, then everyone scrambles to find the next OP thing, and sometimes they wind up finding something that was even more powerful than the original thing that was nerfed.

    That's when things get entertaining.

    "Accuracy by aiming."


    Definitely not on the A-Team.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoatBoy View Post
    You can have reactivity without "bounce". If that's implied, then they really need to change the name of it. I think half the problem technically is people are just throwing words around without pinning down what they really mean.

    And by the way, force alone doesn't produce actual work.

    In some cases you can relate force to work ("this return force ratio *might* produce bounce in some guns"), but good luck crafting a rule where it is both effective *and* doesn't unnecessarily rule out certain configurations. Some guns will RT at 850PSI or less, some will never RT at all.



    I don't see a feedback path so it wouldn't be considered "reactive". It's just "a really light trigger". Whether or not it gets banned is, again, a matter up to the fickle, inconsistent minded rulemakers. It's a good litmus test to see what the spirit of the rulemakers really is.




    OK, so this I think is the unspoken heart of the matter, and where we separate the men from the bearded lady-men.

    The mech question isn't about ROF, because you could just limit ROF and call it a day.

    It's not about paint limit because you could just limit paint and call it a day.

    It's about game design.

    You want to design games where choices have meaning.

    In current open play, if you want to go hard, it's a pretty easy choice. Pick up an electro gun with an electro hopper, go hose people. The choice is so easy that it's meaningless.

    But what if we were go around and kick everybody's crutches out from under them? "No batteries. Now what are you going to do?"

    Now people have to start making equipment choices which actually mean something.

    It is exactly the same thing as when a video game maker goes in and nerfs a certain aspect of the game when it becomes boringly overpowered. They nerf that, then everyone scrambles to find the next OP thing, and sometimes they wind up finding something that was even more powerful than the original thing that was nerfed.

    That's when things get entertaining.

    I agree 100%. Clash of clans is a perfect example of the game nerfing.

    And this is also why I said all they really need to do is say E marker and non force fed hopper or mech marker and force fed hopper allowed.

    In the end there are full auto mech guns. Granted today they are really old guns. But they exist. And then there is the mag.

    In reality the rt bounce concern went out the window once every 10 year old with a 200 dollar credit from daddy could score them an E marker capable of sub 20bps.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by zondo View Post
    So, does a pneumag get around this issue because there is no feedback on the trigger reset from the on/off to trigger or does it still get disqualified simply because of the way the on/off functions?

    In other words the rules only look at how the function of the on/off works and not how the force is felt at the trigger.
    It shouldn't affect the pneumag or any other pneumatic trigger. If that were the case, then the only guns allowed would be blowback sear trippers. A design shouldn't be banned just because it is good. It should only be banned if it allows a rate of fire above what the user can legitimately do on their own.


    Quote Originally Posted by BigEvil View Post
    Yes, but the trigger pull is really hard. Since you have direct line pressure acting on the pin in an Xvalve, the pull weight is probably 2/3 harder than a classic mag.
    The trigger pull force would be the same as a classic because the dump chamber requires the same pressure as a classic does to fire a ball, which is about double that of a RT/X valve. The direct line pressure is only on the return force. So the return force for the classic pin in an X-valve would be the same as the return force for the RT pin. The reactivity would be greatly reduced because the differential is about 2 to 1 vs 4 to 1 using a RT pin.
    Except for the Automag in front, its usually the man behind the equipment that counts.

  10. #40
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    Judging from many of the replies that I have seen to a discussion on Mags in the NXL I get the feeling that most want no part of it.

  11. #41
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    Will they ever get to a NASCAR style competition where the markers are as well defined as race cars? They would all be the same brand and model with strict modification guidelines.

    Shirley, the Kee-glomeration could afford that.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigEvil View Post
    Judging from many of the replies that I have seen to a discussion on Mags in the NXL I get the feeling that most want no part of it.
    Most of the mag guys or most of the NXL guys?


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  13. #43
    I'm not really a car guy.

    I'm thinking fun/interesting in kind of an America's Cup way.

    http://www.theverge.com/2016/5/25/11...gn-team-oracle

    Or if you're into model aircraft... I believe the fastest RC model aircraft is currently... a glider.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_soaring

    We'd never reach the level of R&D or interest of either of those though.

    Back to the topic, I don't see AGD popping out an aluminum Classic valve. The valve is, after all, just the valve. The entire ecosystem around the valve has languished, and rehashing the valve while still pushing the same warmed-over ecosystem would be a amazing exercise in futility.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by zondo View Post
    Most of the mag guys or most of the NXL guys?
    How many mag guys do you know that play in the NXL ?

    Mag guys play woods, not balloons in an open field....
    "When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty." Thomas Jefferson

  15. #45
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    Most of that comes from uneducated speculation on how they operate. Its too bad. People often jump to conclusions based on misconceptions, not just in paintball. Any mag can be made to operate without being runaway reactive. Its easily tested. Any mechancial marker can be made to go full auto. That would mean all markers would be banned. Not because they are bad, but because they have the capability to be bad. Rule need to be put in place and any marker that meets those rules should be able to be used.

  16. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoatBoy View Post
    Back to the topic, I don't see AGD popping out an aluminum Classic valve. The valve is, after all, just the valve. The entire ecosystem around the valve has languished, and rehashing the valve while still pushing the same warmed-over ecosystem would be a amazing exercise in futility.
    Lightweight bodies with expanding anno options, new frames and triggers, an array of factory available feednecks...yeah, the ecosystem is languishing alright! smh

    So many haters.

    If we wanted a company that redefines itself each year by releasing new milling, we wouldn't be fans of AGD!

  17. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKR View Post
    Lightweight bodies with expanding anno options, new frames and triggers, an array of factory available feednecks...yeah, the ecosystem is languishing alright! smh

    So many haters.

    If we wanted a company that redefines itself each year by releasing new milling, we wouldn't be fans of AGD!
    Yet, the numbers that the private sector(XMT, Magnus, Tuna, KAM, Luke) are doing (20 bodies here, 50 frames there, 12 forgrips, etc) is NOT thriving. This is life support, not life. If you care to see at a field who is buying new guns, what they are using, that is life. If you look at PE, for example, they are updating, changing, improving their lineup of guns because they are selling, they are getting feedback from the players in what they want, what they need. Regardless of where they are played at, PE is looking at the future, not to the past. AO can't even do half the pre-orders to completion, do 100 parts of ANYTHING, or get someone to actually agree on any 1 part that is actually NEEDED.

    I love mags, but if AGD wants to grow and live, it will need 1 person to make decisions on a path, 1 person to fund it, and 1 person to make the parts.

    And before any of you even think i don't know what i am talking about, i see what Inception Designs is doing and they are pushing into the market, making a name for themselves and trying to put their mark on the paintball world. AO, can't even agree on what they like for a foregrip...

  18. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKR View Post
    Lightweight bodies with expanding anno options, new frames and triggers, an array of factory available feednecks...yeah, the ecosystem is languishing alright! smh

    So many haters.

    If we wanted a company that redefines itself each year by releasing new milling, we wouldn't be fans of AGD!
    Or we can just shoot cockers. Nothing like that going on with that platform right ?

  19. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody View Post
    And before any of you even think i don't know what i am talking about, i see what Inception Designs is doing and they are pushing into the market, making a name for themselves and trying to put their mark on the paintball world. AO, can't even agree on what they like for a foregrip...
    AO is no indication of anything, even in it's heyday was a poor barometer of the retail market.

  20. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody View Post
    Yet, the numbers that the private sector(XMT, Magnus, Tuna, KAM, Luke) are doing (20 bodies here, 50 frames there, 12 forgrips, etc) is NOT thriving. This is life support, not life. If you care to see at a field who is buying new guns, what they are using, that is life. If you look at PE, for example, they are updating, changing, improving their lineup of guns because they are selling, they are getting feedback from the players in what they want, what they need. Regardless of where they are played at, PE is looking at the future, not to the past. AO can't even do half the pre-orders to completion, do 100 parts of ANYTHING, or get someone to actually agree on any 1 part that is actually NEEDED.

    I love mags, but if AGD wants to grow and live, it will need 1 person to make decisions on a path, 1 person to fund it, and 1 person to make the parts.

    And before any of you even think i don't know what i am talking about, i see what Inception Designs is doing and they are pushing into the market, making a name for themselves and trying to put their mark on the paintball world. AO, can't even agree on what they like for a foregrip...
    PE isn't allowing the aftermarket to dictate their business plans. That is one important difference in your analysis. Everyone loves to see the cool stuff from Luke, XMT, and the rest but the end result is a built 'Mag over a grand. Life sustaining, volume sales are not going to come from a 'Mag with a price tag of over $1000...not in today's economy. AGD needs to focus on 'Mags in the $500-$600 range to keep the lights on and throw in some high end stuff along the way to generate interest. I don't have a sales analysis of the PE company but I'll bet their bread and butter is the market in the $500-$750 (and under) range.

  21. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by JKR View Post
    Lightweight bodies with expanding anno options, new frames and triggers, an array of factory available feednecks...yeah, the ecosystem is languishing alright! smh

    So many haters.

    If we wanted a company that redefines itself each year by releasing new milling, we wouldn't be fans of AGD!
    That's actually my point. You have managed to somehow in one sentence compile a list entirely composed of useless rehash items.

    Do you think I'm talking about "new milling"? Is that what you took from my statement?


    Quote Originally Posted by JKR View Post
    PE isn't allowing the aftermarket to dictate their business plans. That is one important difference in your analysis. Everyone loves to see the cool stuff from Luke, XMT, and the rest but the end result is a built 'Mag over a grand. Life sustaining, volume sales are not going to come from a 'Mag with a price tag of over $1000...not in today's economy. AGD needs to focus on 'Mags in the $500-$600 range to keep the lights on and throw in some high end stuff along the way to generate interest. I don't have a sales analysis of the PE company but I'll bet their bread and butter is the market in the $500-$750 (and under) range.
    It's a good bet that anything that AGD produces now, in 2017, will be priced at late-80s level prices. Except they will adjust upward for inflation. They will price themselves out of the market, then complain that there's no market.

    Why?

    Because history repeats itself.

  22. #52
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    Have you seen the prices of the new stuff Tim has been working on ?

    Its not low end pricing by any means, but it seems competitive at least.

    http://www.airgundesigns.com/category-s/107.htm



  23. #53
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    My .02 (never played in a tournament, but started playing in late 90s)

    I believe the Genesis of this rule/school of thought starts back when electros started becoming mainstays in tournaments. ROF caps and the like are obviously able to be regulated. AGD cornered the market on performance (high) mechs that could achieve uncappable ROF. Everyone can remember playing with/against guys who had a cheater or workaround on their marker to achieve a higher rate of fire in those days.

    ^this speaks to the letter of the law, no matter how misinformed it is and all the talk about force returning the trigger, and one pull one shot, etc

    Now to the spirit of the law. I would imagine the rules committee wants non-RT/runaway mechs. This is easily achievable. And should be an easy clarification. Talk about reviving a segment of the market and some old rivalries.

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  24. #54
    It's simple,

    I build mags all the time that DO NOT BOUNCE. You can try as hard as you want to short pull, slight pull, tease pull....however you want and the gun will not bounce.

    Bounce is created by setting the firing point as close as possible to the ready to fire point. Most guns can be set-up to do it. I can make a cocker bounce fire too. It just doesn't work as well because the gun is not capable of returning to the ready to fire state as fast as a mag.

    The bottom line is there is no reason to ban mags other than "they"(those making the rules and running the league) are most likely Cocker fans and don't want to compete against a superior mechanical gun.

    I've tried contacting the NXL to discuss this. No one bothers to respond. No ones even contacted AGD at all about the league. The Automag is only the most iconic gun besides the Autococker that started the whole competitive sport side of paintball. And these jokers ban them for no reason at all, other than they have no understanding of the tech and don't want to get beat by them.

    I guess we'll have to start a competing league.
    AGD is in the house!
    Custom gun builds. All the parts. New Website. Factory Service available!
    www.airgundesigns.com

  25. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoatBoy View Post
    That's actually my point. You have managed to somehow in one sentence compile a list entirely composed of useless rehash items.

    Do you think I'm talking about "new milling"? Is that what you took from my statement?




    It's a good bet that anything that AGD produces now, in 2017, will be priced at late-80s level prices. Except they will adjust upward for inflation. They will price themselves out of the market, then complain that there's no market.

    Why?

    Because history repeats itself.

    If not new milling, then what? AGD has the best performing mechanical semi around...very little room for improvement - maybe some efficiency improvements. It is extremely durable and robust and performs better than any other mechanical semi.

    Lighter weight? That is subjective as there are many that prefer mechanical 'guns and a bit of nicely balanced weight to said 'guns.

    So, the guts are solid...that leaves trigger frames, triggers, lightened bodies, and better feednecks. Improvements or options that customers want in these items are hardly "useless".

    Honestly, other than aesthetics, what are you talking about?

    Pricing? Well, you get what you pay for. If you want to support American industry as opposed to Chinese made battery powered options, that's up to you.

    Not sure your particular dislike for AGD but you might want to consider hanging out in a different corner of the electronic world, just in case you missed the familiar name within the web address.

  26. #56
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    He shoots mags.

    Came to Tunaball a few years back too.



  27. #57
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    Believe it or not this is really not the center of AGD. There a whole other culture of mag users that buy from the AGD store not even knowing this website exist! If you think that Tom, Dave or now Tim were/are only selling to the fine members of AO you are severely under rating this reach of the AutoMag!
    ......You know you want one!!

  28. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandman View Post
    It's simple,

    I build mags all the time that DO NOT BOUNCE. You can try as hard as you want to short pull, slight pull, tease pull....however you want and the gun will not bounce.

    Bounce is created by setting the firing point as close as possible to the ready to fire point. Most guns can be set-up to do it. I can make a cocker bounce fire too. It just doesn't work as well because the gun is not capable of returning to the ready to fire state as fast as a mag.

    The bottom line is there is no reason to ban mags other than "they"(those making the rules and running the league) are most likely Cocker fans and don't want to compete against a superior mechanical gun.

    I've tried contacting the NXL to discuss this. No one bothers to respond. No ones even contacted AGD at all about the league. The Automag is only the most iconic gun besides the Autococker that started the whole competitive sport side of paintball. And these jokers ban them for no reason at all, other than they have no understanding of the tech and don't want to get beat by them.

    I guess we'll have to start a competing league.
    there were many ways they could have set a bps cap and they didnt even bother.

    500 balls per player
    gravity feed or no force feed hoppers
    rting penalties

    but instead they chose to cut off a whole chunk of the people that would have/wanted to enter/travel play and give them money.

    While i see a big surge in people wanting to shoot mech's again, i wish the industry wasn't so one sided.

  29. #59
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    Did they exclude Automags ?

    Is it official ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by captian pinky View Post
    there were many ways they could have set a bps cap and they didnt even bother.

    500 balls per player
    gravity feed or no force feed hoppers
    rting penalties

    but instead they chose to cut off a whole chunk of the people that would have/wanted to enter/travel play and give them money.

    While i see a big surge in people wanting to shoot mech's again, i wish the industry wasn't so one sided.
    It's almost like the tournament side of the industry blacklisted AGD after the original RT was released and they have never allowed the thought of reconsidering there stance on the subject.

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