Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 38

Thread: Twist lock , freak boring

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    West By God Virginia
    Posts
    3,405

    Twist lock , freak boring

    I've got a couple crown point twist locks I'd like to freak IF possible
    Can it be done ?
    Who can do it ??

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Location
    Tucson, Arizona
    Posts
    121
    Doc has told me he can bore cocker threaded barrels for freak inserts. Perhaps he has the set up to do twist lock barrels?

    https://www.automags.org/forums/showt...t-Freak-Barrel

    Post in that thread or find him in that thread to pm him.

    I also am interested in this.

    I do not know for certain, but if it's a one piece barrel significantly longer than the inserts, would the barrels original diameter limit the largest size insert you could use?

    For example if the barrel is .686, you might have trouble using the .691 or .693 inserts and paint?

    Anyone know?

    Jim
    yes, i could have purchased something new for the same money.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Mt. Pleasant, SC
    Posts
    2,741
    twistlock freak boring is done by cutting the front boring and threading for a tip. It is not done like a standard threaded back.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Inception Designs HQ
    Posts
    3,067
    Most people won't touch twistlocks to freak bore. The best you could do is, have the crown points cocker threaded then use a that with a twistlock adapter or just as a stand alone barrel. Which could possibly be freak bored (which you would have to see if there is enough meat to handle the insert).

    But i just dont know why people continue to use twistlocks anymore. Yes TK made them and while the idea behind them is good, the plethora of cocker bodies, not to mention the weight savings alone.

    Come on people, come join the 21st century

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    West By God Virginia
    Posts
    3,405
    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody View Post
    Most people won't touch twistlocks to freak bore. The best you could do is, have the crown points cocker threaded then use a that with a twistlock adapter or just as a stand alone barrel. Which could possibly be freak bored (which you would have to see if there is enough meat to handle the insert).

    But i just dont know why people continue to use twistlocks anymore. Yes TK made them and while the idea behind them is good, the plethora of cocker bodies, not to mention the weight savings alone.

    Come on people, come join the 21st century

    because I was stupid enough to sell my TL adpt , and I want to build a Q loaded Mag again , for Mag Fed games

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    WV
    Posts
    392
    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody View Post
    But i just dont know why people continue to use twistlocks anymore. Yes TK made them and while the idea behind them is good, the plethora of cocker bodies, not to mention the weight savings alone.
    I like the Minimag body. The Minimag body uses twist lock barrels and shoots very well with them.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Inception Designs HQ
    Posts
    3,067
    Not saying that they don't shoot good. I am weighing the difference between the lack of modern barrels made for twistlocks, and the ease of use and availability of cocker barrels in all sizes and flavors. Not to mention the simple fact that to get a regukar cocker barrel freak bored is far easier, cheaper and simpler than to try and find someone willing to take on the job, that won't cost less than a full barrel system and one where you don't turn a 1 piece barrel into a 3 piece monstrosity that may or may not shoot like the original or your memories told you...

  8. #8
    I like mag threaded barrels, as well. They can be removed, cleaned, and locked back into place much quicker and easier than autococker barrels, which are rather tedious to unscrew. Of course, if finding a smaller bore size is important to you, then your options will be very limited with mag barrels. They may not be the industry standard, but from a functionality standpoint, I think they are a better design.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Inception Designs HQ
    Posts
    3,067
    Quote Originally Posted by ghost flanker View Post
    I like mag threaded barrels, as well. They can be removed, cleaned, and locked back into place much quicker and easier than autococker barrels, which are rather tedious to unscrew. Of course, if finding a smaller bore size is important to you, then your options will be very limited with mag barrels. They may not be the industry standard, but from a functionality standpoint, I think they are a better design.
    Again, that was because in the early days, the bore consistency to work with the bolt of the mag, dictated the need for the bore to be a specific size. The ULE fixed that, and the new fixed cocker threads fix the 5min to take it off. I do not know about you, but i have used paint that has been around .68 to .69 and everything in between. You might get lucky in a TW freak back or even some fixed barrels, but most are not.

    Simply put, carbs still workx but fuel injection is so much better. There are multiple reasons why TW died. No real sense keeping them alive.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Halifax, N.S., Canada
    Posts
    8,039
    A cocker barrel is more stable for accuracy than a twistlock barrel. This is due to the orings around the barrel that keep tension on it. If the barrel were an exact fit to the body, it wouldn't be an issue. But most barrels are not an exact fit, so there is movement during the firing of the gun. This is called barrel wobble. Some barrels are worst than others. A good fitting twistlock barrel won't have that much wobble and it may not even be noticable.

    I have a set of different sized twist lock backs for my mag that I used to use before I had my ULE body and I loved them. They were from an Equation barrel system. I even ended up buying a set of insert backs with cocker threads for the Equation set once I had my ULE body. It is my favourite barrel of all my barrels.
    Except for the Automag in front, its usually the man behind the equipment that counts.

  11. #11
    Nobody,

    Meh. To each his own. You got your reasons for why you prefer autococker threads, but I still like me some twist-lock.


    athomas,

    That makes sense in theory, but I really do not think that there's any difference in accuracy at all between autococker and automag threaded barrels. Has it ever been demonstrated that barrel wobble actually occurs with automag threaded barrels while firing?

    Hmm, I've never heard Equation barrels. What was the smallest bore size in the set you had?
    Last edited by ghost flanker; 03-02-2017 at 01:30 AM.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Inception Designs HQ
    Posts
    3,067
    Quote Originally Posted by ghost flanker View Post
    Nobody,

    Meh. To each his own. You got your reasons for why you prefer autococker threads, but I still like me some twist-lock.


    athomas,

    That makes sense in theory, but I really do not think that there's any difference in accuracy at all between autococker and automag threaded barrels. Has it ever been demonstrated that barrel wobble actually occurs with automag threaded barrels while firing?

    Hmm, I've never heard Equation barrels. What was the smallest bore size in the set you had?
    If reasons equate to availability, commonality, lighter, better body options, better flexibility in use with both paint and guns. Well yes, it is better. Even going with a ULE body means you remove a weak point, the feedneck, then yes, so much better.

    Don't get me wrong, i loved my TW Lapcos. The new detent is a godsend of simplicity and ease, though it came too late to the game. If anything, twistlock barrels are fine, it was always the body that was the sore point. Changing the body opens up a whole world of new and better options for barrels. Want to use a Stella, or a PE or whatever that was never around or made for TWs. A rotary phone works, but isn't a touchtone, cordless, or a cell phone much better than that dinosaur?
    Last edited by Nobody; 03-03-2017 at 06:03 AM.

  13. #13
    The substantially lesser availablity/commonality of twistlock barrels is a nonissue for me. Just because something is not as common doesn't necessarily mean its design and functionality are inferior. In fact, I rather enjoy the fact that twistlocks are unique. Generally, paintball barrels really only affect air efficiency and cosmetics, and I personally think that aftermarket barrel "upgrades" are highly overrated. A large collection of barrels to select from isn't really necessary. One barrel per gun is all I need; anything more is a waste of money. Plus, I often go with the stock barrel to preserve the original look of the gun, anyway. But that's just me. If you're a barrel whore and frequently like to change things up on your gun, then cocker barrels will probably be more appealing. It all comes down to what's important to you.

    I'm not saying that I don't like cocker barrels, though. They're totally fine. And the fact that they have a wider variety of body options is a big selling point. As much as I love twistlock barrels, I highly prefer center-feeds over powerfeeds. That's one thing you and I agree on. Fortunately, I'm lucky enough to own a stainless centerfeed twistlock body and it's practically the best of both worlds: low profile and 1-second barrel removal. That being said, I understand that centerfeed twistlock bodies and barrels are quite rare (though standard twistlock barrels can be modified for centerfeed rather easily) and not everybody can have one, but that's not a fault of the twistlock design. From purely a functionality standpoint, I think the 1-second removal time of both the barrel and the breech for cleaning is a major advantage over cocker barrels that should not be overlooked.

    If I could design the perfect mag, it'd have an aluminum centerfeed body and a twistlock barrel.
    Last edited by ghost flanker; 03-03-2017 at 09:37 AM.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    West By God Virginia
    Posts
    3,405
    My problem with TL's is bore size ,, when ya drop a Pball thru a barrel , and it Falls thru , you lose , air efficiency , consistency and accuracy , find me some TL's in the 680/684 range and then I would be ok , the stock barrels are way big on bore size ( IMO ) , and with freak backs sellin for 100$ ( insanity IMO ) now , at this point this is all a mute point anyway ( for me ) I just went with a warp ULE body

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    9,305
    Talk to Ty Mcneer. He will do anything for a Klondike Bar...

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Sunny Florida- Woot!
    Posts
    5,240
    Quote Originally Posted by BigEvil View Post
    Talk to Ty Mcneer. He will do anything for a Klondike Bar...
    I was going to mention the same. He agreed to do one for me once, but it wasn't cheap. IIRC, he was looking in the $75 range and he really didn't want to do it.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by maniacmechanic View Post
    My problem with TL's is bore size ,, when ya drop a Pball thru a barrel , and it Falls thru , you lose , air efficiency , consistency and accuracy , find me some TL's in the 680/684 range and then I would be ok , the stock barrels are way big on bore size ( IMO ) , and with freak backs sellin for 100$ ( insanity IMO ) now , at this point this is all a mute point anyway ( for me ) I just went with a warp ULE body
    I'm not a fan of the big bore sizes of twistlock barrels, either. However, based on research conducted by Punkworks;

    Overbore
    - Poor efficiency
    - High consistency

    Bore-matched
    - Moderate efficiency
    - Poor consistency

    Underbore
    - High efficiency
    - High consistency

    Furthermore, no differences in accuracy were found between overboring, underboring, and bore-matching at all. All linear barrels, whether big or small, are essentially equal in accuracy when all else is equal. Though overboring will indeed negatively affect air efficiency up to 20 fps, it performs quite well, otherwise ... better than bore-matching, it would seem. But if efficiency is a serious concern for you, then a mag may not be what you want to be using, anyway.

    https://www.youtube.com/shared?ci=q0QxwvYNym4

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Inception Designs HQ
    Posts
    3,067
    Quote Originally Posted by ghost flanker View Post
    I'm not a fan of the big bore sizes of twistlock barrels, either. However, based on research conducted by Punkworks;

    Overbore
    - Poor efficiency
    - High consistency

    Bore-matched
    - Moderate efficiency
    - Poor consistency

    Underbore
    - High efficiency
    - High consistency

    Furthermore, no differences in accuracy were found between overboring, underboring, and bore-matching at all. All linear barrels, whether big or small, are essentially equal in accuracy when all else is equal. Though overboring will indeed negatively affect air efficiency up to 20 fps, it performs quite well, otherwise ... better than bore-matching, it would seem. But if efficiency is a serious concern for you, then a mag may not be what you want to be using, anyway.

    https://www.youtube.com/shared?ci=q0QxwvYNym4
    Oh ghost flanker, if you believe that more than what your own experience is, i just can't help you.

    Anyway, a TW is more like 3sec removal, but that is semantics...

    I have a plethora of barrels and some are gun specific, but most are me seeing what the paint does and which gun with what barrel. Air efficiency is not a huge factor to me. Whether limiting paint to what you can carry/shoot or free air.

    But availability of a TW freak back, the cost of it now, & the cost of getting a TW cut is not cost effective. A freak'd Dye Aluminium is about $35 and about the same as to get a barrel freak bored and the cost of a freak barrel(guesstimating the costs, haven't looked at the costs in a bit). The $75+ to get a TW freak'd and the cost of a freak back is $100.

    But the biggest deal is the TW body is the weight and the feedneck. It was never over the performance or advantage of the twistlock vs threaded barrels. Though both have their own individual faults, it is the system implemented tbat falls in the long run.

  19. #19
    I have some color match crown points, but went to ULE bodies and so wanted to get them cocker-threaded.
    Cocker threading a crown point is relatively easy, but you loose a few inches of barrel length as the breech area has to be cut off.

    If you were willing to cocker-thread the barrel, you could then freak bore it pretty easily. It definitely has plenty of wall thickness.
    Then you can use a Doc's adapter for TL bodies and simply screw into ULE bodies.

    As others have mentioned, this is a very roundabout way to accomplish something that is of arguable benefit; but it can be done.
    To me, the value of a complete color kit with a ULE body was worth the money and time. So maybe the end product is worth it to you.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    West By God Virginia
    Posts
    3,405
    Quote Originally Posted by ghost flanker View Post
    I'm not a fan of the big bore sizes of twistlock barrels, either. However, based on research conducted by Punkworks;

    Overbore
    - Poor efficiency
    - High consistency

    Bore-matched
    - Moderate efficiency
    - Poor consistency

    Underbore
    - High efficiency
    - High consistency

    Furthermore, no differences in accuracy were found between overboring, underboring, and bore-matching at all. All linear barrels, whether big or small, are essentially equal in accuracy when all else is equal. Though overboring will indeed negatively affect air efficiency up to 20 fps, it performs quite well, otherwise ... better than bore-matching, it would seem. But if efficiency is a serious concern for you, then a mag may not be what you want to be using, anyway.

    https://www.youtube.com/shared?ci=q0QxwvYNym4

    I'm going to start this with ,, I'm just a stupid mechanic

    But if you don't think you lose Accuracy when you over bore ,, well I guess that's the way You think ,,, I KNOW different
    If you think Cockerpunk is a Scientist , good for you ,,, BUT he's not
    Yes he did all these barrel tests and produced some " Findings " basically his Thoughts on paper ,, and most really don't care about what he thinks or says
    It's been MY EXPERIENCE in the field , shootin the same marker for about 13 years now , barrel to paint bore matching improves Accuracy , consistency over the chrono & air efficiency ( which I really don't care about , although I do get 3 pods and a hopper out of a 45/45 ) ALL improve with Paint to Bore matching
    The only time you Won't make things better with a paint/bore match is when you are shooting Garbage paint ,
    When I have to shoot Garbage paint I overbore ( I only shoot Garbage when nothing else is available , I will spend the extra for Good paint )
    Want to know who can tell ya about Accuracy ?? the guys I shoot at ,, I can't tell ya how many times over the years I've been told ; Man that thing ( my AGD ) shoots fn darts , I've had a FSR shooter tell me at 100 feet it shoots just as accurately as their SAR 12
    Now of course this is all just my opinion ( and Experience ) ,, I have no Science to back it up
    As I said before this thread is a mute point for me , I'm no longer interested in having a TL barrel cut for a freak

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Halifax, N.S., Canada
    Posts
    8,039
    Quote Originally Posted by ghost flanker View Post
    I'm not a fan of the big bore sizes of twistlock barrels, either. However, based on research conducted by Punkworks;

    Overbore
    - Poor efficiency
    - High consistency even for inconsistent paint

    Bore-matched
    - Moderate efficiency
    - Poor consistency when paint is inconsistent

    Underbore
    - High efficiency
    - High consistency
    - higher chance of barrel breaks

    Furthermore, no differences in accuracy were found between overboring, underboring, and bore-matching at all. All linear barrels, whether big or small, are essentially equal in accuracy when all else is equal.
    If all paint is equal then all barrels will operate very similarly. We can't guarantee absolute equality within the same case in most instances. Consistency does equate to accuracy, since consistency affects the velocity and arc on the ball. That even holds true for paint that flies straight with a natural gravitational arc.

    maniacmechanic: You do lose a bit of accuracy when you overbore compared to paint matching, but you gain overall accuracy over a wider range of paint sizes and shapes. If you were to throw a mix of 10 different manufacturers balls in a hopper, you would get better overall performance from an overbore barrel than one that was borematched to one of the paint sizes. That same performance characteristic helps improve overall accuracy for mishaped balls.

    ghostflanker: Barrel wobble is a thing. You can actually see the vibrational movement of the barrel in extreme cases. Its not a hugh detriment but it does increase the shot spread a bit. Some barrels are worst than others due to the differences in the outside diameter of the back section. I used to wrap the barrel with tape to take up some of the slack in the body to help prevent it. The twistlock barrel is as accurate as a cocker barrel if tested where accuracy is measured by holding the barrel fixed.

    The smallest equation insert in my kit is 0.683". The largest is 0.693". They are stainless, so nice and tough. I love the kit which contains 6 inserts. They are the best barrels I own.

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    West By God Virginia
    Posts
    3,405
    Never in my paintball career have I put more than 1 type of paint in my hopper ( to play anyway ) , it's been the rare occasion when I found a major size change in paint bag to bag ( again Garbage paint )

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Halifax, N.S., Canada
    Posts
    8,039
    No, no one would put more than one paint type into their hopper. It just illustrates a point. But even good paint often has inconsistencies. Overboring evens out those inconsistencies. It isn't even so much about those inconsistencies as it is about protection. If you have even 1 bad ball in your batch and it happens to get shot in a bore matched barrel, the chances of a barrel break increase significantly. Then all paint shot after that are usually inconsistent until you clean everything out. Overboring reduces that chance as well. Most serious tournament players overbore to protect against breakage and don't worry so much about accuracy, because there isn't much difference in accuracy among barrels when using good paint. The All Americans used to run 0.695" barrels on all their guns all the time, even when paint was much smaller than that. Their accuracy was quite good and took them to several world championships.

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by maniacmechanic View Post
    ...if you don't think you lose Accuracy when you over bore ,, well I guess that's the way You think ,,, I KNOW different
    If you think Cockerpunk is a Scientist , good for you ,,, BUT he's not
    Yes he did all these barrel tests and produced some " Findings " basically his Thoughts on paper ,, and most really don't care about what he thinks or says
    It's been MY EXPERIENCE in the field , shootin the same marker for about 13 years now , barrel to paint bore matching improves Accuracy , consistency over the chrono & air efficiency
    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody View Post
    Oh ghost flanker, if you believe that more than what your own experience is, i just can't help you.
    Ok, well my personal experience tells me that paintball accuracy is virtually the same between any of my barrels ... as far as I can tell, anyway. But my personal experience means nothing to the person to whom I'm presenting my argument, and rightfully so. Using only personal experience to support my claim will not be very convincing to anyone who is not already in agreement with me. What is needed here is demonstrable evidence.

    Psychology has shown that different people can perceive the same observation very differently, especially if certain biases of theirs differ. Humans are fallible as all hell when it comes to stuff like this, and we are all highly susceptible to something called expectation bias. Now, could I be the one whose personal experience is in total error? Absolutely. My expectation bias towards the idea that barrel accuracy is a total myth, when it's actually not, could be skewing my perception of my observations, not unlike a placebo effect. This is precisely why it is so important to remove all subjectivity by testing things in a fair, scientific manner. So, yes, I will believe demonstrable evidence over anecdotal evidence every time. Gordon and Bryce may not be scientists, and Gordon may not be likable as a person, but those things have no bearing on whether the barrel tests they performed were scientifically sound and incorporated proper statistical analysis of the results to determine their significance. Furthermore, their testing methods were highly transparent to the community on techpb which effectively enabled sufficient peer review. As far as I am aware, no other quality tests have ever replicated their experiments and failed to reproduce their results. If you have access to, or are able to demonstrate convincing evidence that contradicts or dispels Punkworks' barrel test results, I invite you to share it here. If you can demonstrate that Punkworks' test results are really nothing more than Gordon's subjective thoughts on paper or are otherwise unreliable as evidence, please share it. If you do, I will happily change my stance on this topic; I'd rather find out I'm wrong than win an internet debate and continue to believe in something that isn't true. But if you cannot support your claims, then I will have no choice but to follow the evidence that is available to me.
    Last edited by ghost flanker; 03-05-2017 at 08:14 AM.

  25. #25
    athomas,

    It's been demonstrated in tests that underboring to less than .010 does not result in a higher frequency of barrel breaks compared to bore matching. If you have data which contradicts the sources I've cited, I'd like to take a look.

  26. #26
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    West By God Virginia
    Posts
    3,405
    due to popular request ,,, it's back !!

  27. #27
    Awesome. Thank you!

  28. #28
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Halifax, N.S., Canada
    Posts
    8,039
    Quote Originally Posted by ghost flanker View Post
    athomas,

    It's been demonstrated in tests that underboring to less than .010 does not result in a higher frequency of barrel breaks compared to bore matching. If you have data which contradicts the sources I've cited, I'd like to take a look.
    You are correct. There isn't much difference between these two (borematching and underboring). The major difference is between underbore and bore matching compared to overboring. Even bore matching has an issue when you get a single odd paintball. This usually doesn't show up in normal rental paint, but will show up in fragile paint. If you jam that oversized paintball into a barrel opening that it doesn't fit into, the chances of it breaking go up significantly. I qualify the oversized paintball as one that has an odd size that causes one orientation to be larger than the opening it is going into.

    I don't have my actual test data anymore, so it can't be used for a real scientific evaluation. That is long gone since my last move. The numbers were significant for the paint that was tested when it was done. The paint was not that bad for odd shapes but was really brittle so it showed the exaggerated consequences which was great for testing. The bore-matched (not even underbored) barrel had a breakage rate of about 5%. The overbored barrel had a breakage rate of about .1%. It was so significant of a difference it was astounding.

    I had another paint that numbers weren't tested for that couldn't be shot out of a slightly underbore barrel without breakage (ie; 100% breakage) because it was so brittle. The barrel wasn't really under-bored that much. The paint was smaller than the barrel except it was slightly tighter than what I would consider to be an ideal borematch. Overboring allowed that paint to be used without breakage.

    As an engineer I like exaggerated values trailing off to infinity. It often shows extreme events even if those events might never occur in use for the average user. The extremely fragile paint we used represented those infinity values. The normal user would probably never encounter those extremes so normal paint might act the same in an underbored barrel compared to a borematched or overbored barrel. In extreme cases however, the data does show that there is a difference. As the paint goes toward the fragile range the chances of breakage does go up for underbored barrels. This could be an issue for extreme tournament grade paint.

  29. #29
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Jeet yet ?
    Posts
    8,132
    Quote Originally Posted by maniacmechanic View Post
    due to popular request ,,, it's back !!
    Nice.

  30. #30
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    waiting for winter
    Posts
    1,769
    my $.02, I prefer twist locks. since I came back to paintball in late 2013 I have not been happy with any paint/barrel combination I have tried regardless of which mag I was using. 2 years ago at Tuna ball I could not hit Big Evil from 20 feet away on the fort field in 3 or 4 tries before he put me out. back in the 90's using a 16 inch spaa barrel I could lob paint well past 150 feet accurate enough to at least make people duck or move while covering teammates, now days I can't get people to duck at 30 feet. last year at Tuna ball using a freak on my X mag I could not consistently hold an 8 inch group on the back bunkers on the lego field. I bought a Stella from Simon and was still getting lit up by people I could not touch.

    now back to the topic of this thread.

    Ty McNeer and maybe XMT can do it but not with just any twist lock. if someone will measure a freak back for me(mine are still buried behind my hunting gear) the standard insert is 5 inches long. add length for the breach and the threaded end and you need a donor barrel that has enough meat at the where the tip threads in to be able to cut the threads. most tw barrels have only have 4 inches at the back to hold in the body then they either taper or are reduced in diameter and most of these won't work. the only barrel that comes to mind as usable is the old bull barrels that used to come with them. then there is the cost. it will probably cost as much to have this done as it would to just buy one of the existing backs off of ebay or one of the bst forums. there is currently a new in package stainless one on ebay.

    my other $.02.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •