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Thread: New mag owner and issues

  1. #1

    New mag owner and issues

    So I got a new mag. My first mag. Ule rt custom from agd. When I got it it had the size zero carrier in the power tube and two shims with the gold/shortest spring. I also have a ninja shp tank that is as it is when you buy it meaning I haven't taken any shims out or anything. Also using the standard on/off not the ult. I took the two shims out of the power tube as they were causing the gun to leak badly out of the bolt.

    However when I air it up I get a leak out of the bolt regardless of no shims but a lot less than with them. Once I fire the gun however it is fine-ish. It leaks but less almost not at all. When I am playing though after shooting several shots (about 8 or so) the gun will not fire or just chuff a ball out and the trigger will not reset unless I smack the back of the gun (velocity adjustment) then I can shoot a few more shots and same thing. At first I thought it was the macro line because if I fiddled with it, the trigger would reset and I could go again but then I shortened the macro and still same thing so then I got a longer macro and still same problem only fiddling with the macro wouldn't do the trick.

    I plan on getting steel braid line to hopefully maybe help with that but I still don't understand what is going on. Should I maybe try a different oring in the power tube to maybe get a larger spacer in there and then play around with adding shims? Also I was getting ball chops left and right so I tried using the red spring but that made me have to turn the velocity up way high to get it to cycle so I had to trim it to be able to bring the velocity down to acceptable level and I was still getting chops but less often. I do blame the paint partially for the chops as it was crap and really brittle. Something called APX fyre I think

  2. #2
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    As far as the chuffing and bolt reset is concerned I would be looking at the zero carrier as the problem. Too tight of a carrier will cause bolt stick, too loose will cause a leak. As far as shims in the level 10 they are likely not needed at all. I personally use the gold spring with all my level 10's because I find it easier to dial in. As far as the air leak that happens as soon as you air it up, after you change the carrier (maybe start at the 1.5 if you have it, and make sure you reuse the same carrier oring that you take out of the 0 carrier) put about 3 drops of oil in the asa and dry fire 15-20 shots to blow lube all through the valve. Report back and I'm sure somebody will have a more technical answer than me by then.

  3. #3
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    also, interesting name you have there.

  4. #4
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    Last of the Salzburg Clan

  5. #5
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    Did you hand tighten the field strip screw or did you use Allen key?

    Fiddling with the valve resetting the bolt points to misalignment with the body. This could be because the valve wasn't properly tightened down with Allen key.

    I forget what Tunamans exact advice was on allen key tightening, but around half a turn sounds about right?

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laku View Post
    I forget what Tunamans exact advice was on allen key tightening, but around half a turn sounds about right?
    Yeah. Tighten it down, but then back it out half a turn. That should keep the valve aligned correctly.

    The velocity might also be down a little bit. That could be contributing to the chuffing.

    Personally I would put the shims back in, then increase the velocity a little bit (like 1/8 turn at first, then maybe up to 1/4 turn if that doesn't help). Then make sure the field strip screw isn't too tight, and add a little more oil and shoot through a tank to make sure the Level 10 o-ring is set properly. If that doesn't help, then start over with the Level 10 (and a new o-ring).

    Congrats on the new mag, by the way, and welcome to the forum. I know this is frustrating now, but once it's set up properly, you shouldn't have to touch it again for years and years.

  7. #7
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    Shims aren't necessary and can cause false leaks so leave them out. You only need shims if bolt starts to pinch balls before it vents and that's extremely unlikely given the modern paint size.

  8. #8
    Velocity is at about 270-80 when it does work. Size zero carrier is what it came with installed plus two shims. I took the two shims out before playing as I had heard that you shouldn't ever need them and how they can cause "false leaks" whatever that means. If I follow the instructions that "nak" linked to then the zero carrier is the only carrier that keeps the bolt from slipping off when held vertically. And as the instructions mention, just a tap on a hard surface makes it release. I have not yet tried airing up with a different size carrier to see if it will leak or not though so I will try that tomorrow. I will also try tightening or loosening the f/s screw to see if that makes a difference. I wish that wasn't so particular especially considering that is something that gets screwed and unscrewed regularly.

    When I originally played with the gun the first time I was just using the gold spring and zero carrier and no shims with my 750 psi tank and it worked fine. I really had to crank that velocity up fhough to get to the field requirement. It started cycling at like 150 fps but if I put the red spring in it wouldn't cycle until I was at like 330 fps. But year for whatever reason it didn't like the shp tank but with the standard out put it worked fine but no reactivity to speak of.

    I played with it yesterday with my shp tank and it seemed to be working fine at first with a lot of reactivity (brought a smile to my face and tears to others haha) but as the day went on I just had more and more problems. I swapped out to the red spring hoping that would keep ball chops to a minimum but I had to trim it damn near to the length of the gold spring just to get me shooting at 270-280.

    But like I said I will try addressing the above mentioned items tomorrow and see if it helps. Hopefully it does. From the times that I have played with it even having the problems it does have I really like this gun, like a lot.

  9. #9
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    I tend to ignore the "dry fit" for the carrier o-ring in the directions I linked. I just use the largest one that doesn't leak. The "dry fit" method will get you close, but you should still go up until you get a leak. Then, back down one carrier. As the bolt stem o-ring wears, you may need to go down a carrier size...maybe.

    The field strip screw isn't that sensitive, in my experience. Snug, but do not over-tighten, with an allen key, and it's good to go.

    If I remember correctly, the Level 10 came out right before force-feed hoppers became mainstream. That said, I've never really needed the Level 10 once I got a Halo. Then again, I don't RT, so I guess it might be handy when RT-ing.

    With the details you provided, I still think you were fighting bolt stick due to the small carrier you're using. That led you to prematurely snip your red spring, essentially making it a gold spring. The red spring typically gives decent results for just about everybody. Try moving up carriers as previously mentioned. With the gold spring, you should be able to start shooting at a very low velocity. I'm guessing with the proper carrier, the red spring should start to cycle around 230-250, depending on your paint/bore match.

  10. #10
    Alright I'll try it tomorrow. Guess it's a good thing I can buy springs still. Thanks for the help everybody I'll get back tomorrow after I mess with it.

  11. #11
    Alright update.

    Got it fixed I think. I don't have a chrono so I cant play with that and I don't have paint so cant be 100% sure I fixed it but I think I got it. I ended up with the .5 size carrier no shims, gold spring and plenty of oil. I tried the larger carriers starting with the 1.5 which is the largest I have and they all leaked till I got to the .5. Even that one started to leak minisculy until I put some pressure on the bolt face with my finger then it seemed to stop. Oh and I made sure to tighten the f/s screw as tightly as I could by hand. I then dry fired a few times and seemed to work fine and then I put my finger in the breach and pulled the trigger. It reset. And I did it again and about 20 times more and it reset every time no problem. I guess I just kept getting hooked up on the instructions where it says use the carrier that makes it so that when the valve is held vertical the bolt doesn't easily slide off so I didn't bother with any of the other sizes other than zero because that is the only one that "worked" according to those instructions. Now I'll just have to get some crap paint and simulate ball chop conditions to really dial it in.

    Again thanks for the help.

  12. #12
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    Glad to hear it's working. Do you have other springs than the red one you clipped? That's what you'll need to dial it in. I would keep one red one as is, since that typically gives good results. Buy some extras to clip if you want to tweak it for different paints and/or velocities.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by nak81783 View Post
    Glad to hear it's working. Do you have other springs than the red one you clipped? That's what you'll need to dial it in. I would keep one red one as is, since that typically gives good results. Buy some extras to clip if you want to tweak it for different paints and/or velocities.
    Yeah I'm going to buy another spring/s. for now I just have what it came with so also the silver one. The field that I typically play at limits fps to 260 because they also have indoor fields and there's usually a lot of kids too but I'll definitely get a new red one and see how that works out. I have a shocker rsx also that I really like and it shoots great but something about a mech being able to shoot really fast and not chop paint really gets my pickle tickled especially when a lot of the younger "tourney agg wannabe" kids don't know what gun it is.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Gabehcoud View Post
    Yeah I'm going to buy another spring/s. for now I just have what it came with so also the silver one. The field that I typically play at limits fps to 260 because they also have indoor fields and there's usually a lot of kids too but I'll definitely get a new red one and see how that works out. I have a shocker rsx also that I really like and it shoots great but something about a mech being able to shoot really fast and not chop paint really gets my pickle tickled especially when a lot of the younger "tourney agg wannabe" kids don't know what gun it is.
    Glad you got it fixed. A properly tuned mag will last you many years. Also be aware that it typically takes a case of paint to break-in all the o-rings. You may need to tweak a bit in the future so have extra springs on hand and oil liberally at the end of day.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabehcoud View Post
    Yeah I'm going to buy another spring/s. for now I just have what it came with so also the silver one. The field that I typically play at limits fps to 260 because they also have indoor fields and there's usually a lot of kids too but I'll definitely get a new red one and see how that works out. I have a shocker rsx also that I really like and it shoots great but something about a mech being able to shoot really fast and not chop paint really gets my pickle tickled especially when a lot of the younger "tourney agg wannabe" kids don't know what gun it is.
    I believe the long silver one is best for trimming, since, as new, it won't start to shoot until a fairly high velocity that typically exceeds allowable limits. I'd keep a gold and red untrimmed on hand, and tune with the long silver one you have.

    Just remember, the easier it is on paint, the closer it is to the balance between spring force and dump chamber pressure, which means reliability goes down as other conditions change -- lubrication, temperature, etc. Basically, just don't overdue it for the paint you're shooting.
    Last edited by nak81783; 04-11-2017 at 09:24 PM.

  16. #16
    New update.

    So I ended up airing it up today just to put some paint through it and see what happens with some paint. Started leaking heavily down the barrel as soon as I aired it up. I have hanged nothing from post #11. So I take it apart and the bolt stays in the gun that's how loose it was. So I pulled the .5 carrier out and put the 0 carrier in added a little oil for good measure and presto. Put my finger in the chamber to simulate a half loaded ball and it reset every time no problems but seemed a little sluggish on the reset sometimes. Not a lot but still. So I added three shims just to see what happened. No leaks, and no sluggishness on the reset. I then switched to my clipped red spring which is about 1/4 inch or so longer than the gold spring because it did seem a little harsh on my finger. I then put a paintball in the feedneck with my finger in through the barrel to simulate it not feeding all the way and pulled the trigger, a lot. No chops. I even placed the seem horizontally so the the bolt would hit right on the seem, I pulled the trigger about 10 times and no chop. Dents but no chop. No this isn't some tourney paint but it's still a good sign. Hopefully this will be the last of my headaches. I guess I just got some large I.d. Orings.

  17. #17
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    When it leaked heavily down the barrel, did you try manually resetting the bolt? A shot or heavy leak down the barrel when first airing up is a sign the the small o-ring furthest back when you split the valve in two is bad/dirty. This allows the air a path to the dump chamber other than through the on/off top. Therefore, the sear may not be latching the bolt when air gets behind the bolt, resulting in a shot or heavy leak down the barrel.

    If the heavy leak was more than you had with the larger carriers, check out that little o-ring. Clean and oil as necessary.

  18. #18
    I did push on the bolt with my finger it made no real difference but after I pulled the trigger it leaked slightly less. It wasn't more than the larger carriers had leaked but still a lot. The bolt was all the way back when first airing up. Also once the leak had lessened after firing a shot, the smallest amount of pressure on the trigger would cause it to start leaking more again. However since I changed what I did it hasn't presented any problems yet but we'll see when I do go play again probably in two weeks time.

  19. #19
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    New mag owner and issues

    Shims only move the point where the bolt vents by 0.01" each. They won't help on sticking issues unless the bolt makes contact with something that can't move forward within those first few thousands to allow it to vent (balls do allow this).

    Most likely your sticking stopped because you removed and reinstalled the valve to change the carrier. Changing to the smaller carrier is I think still the right choice if it doesn't cause sticking.

    Edit. Typo
    Last edited by Laku; 04-13-2017 at 11:20 AM.

  20. #20
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    I recently acquired my first automag and have some questions about its behavior. It was built and purchased straight from AGD, so there's been no previous owners or modifcations.

    I've noticed two things that concern me.

    1. When I received the marker it didn't bounce. After about 1k rounds through it along with oiling the marker before every use (including a few drops down the ASA) it now is starting to bounce as the trigger feels like it is breaking in. It's a ULT with "stock" (I'm assuming that means stock trigger pin? AGD's site wasn't very clear on this) I thought the ULT was supposed to eliminate the bounce seen in older designs.

    2. Last time I fired the marker there was an air leak through the bolt down the breech. I was able to reach into the breach and gently push backwards on the center of the bolt which would then restore the seal and stop the leak until I fired again. This sounds like the o-ring issue described in the few posts above, but seeing as this is still a new marker with proper lubrication I am surprised an o-ring would fail that quickly.

    I'll investigate by disassembling the valve, cleaning it, and checking o-rings but are there any other diagnostic steps recommended?

  21. #21
    That is basically my same situation that I described above. I know it's not the o-rings failing but rather the gun just needing tuning as it breaks in, but as with you, this is my first mag as well so I just don't really know what I am doing

  22. #22
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    You could have some bad powertube carrier orings. If these have a less than perfect surface then they require a bit more tension to seal properly. That causes you to use a carrier size that is too tight for your setup and it can cause sticking issues. Using a size 0 carrier right out of the box is pretty rare.

    You won't need shims. Shims are only needed in the rare event that you have a mag rail that is out of spec such that the sear causes the bolt to sit too far back while in the ready postition. This could allow the bolt to move forward when the sear releases it, but not far enough to clear the vent hole. If this happens, any obstructions at the bolt face will cause the bolt to stop but it won't release air to be able to reset. Buy installing shims, you would push the carrier farther back so that the bolt wouldn't need to move as far to expose the vent hole. In a normal setup, the vent hole is so close to the oring sealing surface that any forward movement of the bolt will cause it to be exposed to vent air and reset.

    "False leaks" are real leaks but not ones that are caused by carrier issues. We call them false leaks because they don't require changing anything that seals air. You only need to remove shims to stop the leak. These false leaks are caused when installed shims push the carrier too far back so that the bolt stem vent hole is permanently exposed or right on the edge of the sealing edge of the oring. Quite often that leak can be stopped by going to a tighter carrier size which flattens out the inner edge of the sealing oring such that it covers the vent hole. So, the leak stops but the carrier and oring are tighter than they should be and you end up with random bolt stick issues.

    Have you tried a different tank? Yours might be 750, but have you actually checked the pressure with an accurate gauge? Level 10 mags act funny if the input pressure is too low.

    The fact that you had issues where your mag leaked but pushing on the face of the bolt caused it to stop or reduce is an indication that the vent hole is exposed. If no shims are installed, it could be a valve or bolt spacing issue. Is your rail bushing in place?
    Except for the Automag in front, its usually the man behind the equipment that counts.

  23. #23
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    athomas,

    This forum has discussed bad o-rings before. Do we know if AGD, their o-ring supplier, etc. take measures to prevent exposure to detrimental conditions, track shelf life expiration, etc.? With two new members having issues with new markers straight from AGD, out of spec or degraded o-orings seem a possibility. We know this isn't the norm for AGD-direct product.
    Last edited by nak81783; 04-14-2017 at 04:00 AM.

  24. #24
    I have two tanks. One I bought used from trademygun.com. They said it was 750 psi. No I haven't tested it. The other one is a new ninja shp with all the shims (1100psi?). With the SHP tank the problems are only exacerbated. With the 750 tank it's tolerable, meaning leaks less enough to wear I can actually play a game with it but yeah still leaks.

    If we're talking about bad orings. 2 of my 3 oring the gun came with require the size 0 carrier to prevent leaks. I haven't yet tried the other one. But now this makes me want to bet that it's going to be the same as the other two.

  25. #25
    I have two tanks. One I bought used from trademygun.com. They said it was 750 psi. No I haven't tested it. The other one is a new ninja shp with all the shims (1100psi?). With the SHP tank the problems are only exacerbated. With the 750 tank it's tolerable, meaning leaks less enough to wear I can actually play a game with it but yeah still leaks.

    If we're talking about bad orings. 2 of my 3 oring the gun came with require the size 0 carrier to prevent leaks. I haven't yet tried the other one. But now this makes me want to bet that it's going to be the same as the other two.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by nak81783 View Post
    athomas,

    This forum has discussed bad o-rings before. Do we know if AGD, their o-ring supplier, etc. take measures to prevent exposure to detrimental conditions, track shelf life expiration, etc.? With two new members having issues with new markers straight from AGD, out of spec or degraded o-orings seem a possibility. We know this isn't the norm for AGD-direct product.
    I don't know the answer to this one. Someone who has direct contact with AGD would have to chime in for that info.

    Gabehcoud: If the problem is the same with both tanks, then input pressure is probably not a factor. Good to know. It eliminates one possibility. The orings do seem suspect though. I am still leaning towards that possibility unless there is a problem with the bolt stem. It has happened a few times where the bolt stem separated from the body of the bolt just a tiny bit causing all sorts of problems. Do you have a way to accurately measure the total length of the bolt from tip to stem?

  27. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by athomas View Post
    I don't know the answer to this one. Someone who has direct contact with AGD would have to chime in for that info.

    Gabehcoud: If the problem is the same with both tanks, then input pressure is probably not a factor. Good to know. It eliminates one possibility. The orings do seem suspect though. I am still leaning towards that possibility unless there is a problem with the bolt stem. It has happened a few times where the bolt stem separated from the body of the bolt just a tiny bit causing all sorts of problems. Do you have a way to accurately measure the total length of the bolt from tip to stem?
    Do you mean measuring from the base of the tube inside the bolt to the end or what? If so then no not really

  28. #28
    Well I contacted Tim at AGD and linked this thread and explained the issue I was having. He responded back within hours maybe even less than that. Told me to send it in and he'll fix it and make up for the issues. Gotta love great customer service.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabehcoud View Post
    Do you mean measuring from the base of the tube inside the bolt to the end or what? If so then no not really
    I meant total length from the front of the bolt to the back of the stem that sticks out the rear of the bolt. Measuring that length will tell you if it is in spec. It probably is in spec, but it is a simple check if you have the tools.

  30. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by athomas View Post
    I meant total length from the front of the bolt to the back of the stem that sticks out the rear of the bolt. Measuring that length will tell you if it is in spec. It probably is in spec, but it is a simple check if you have the tools.
    Oh ok yeah I can do that just have to find my calipers

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