Weak Rt function, where to start?

[Thedeparted]

I just bought my first Mag in 18 years, had a 68 classic in high school. I bought an RT online and the guy selling it said it airs up and shoots fine but, "the RT function is weak."

Where should I start in diagnosing something like this? Thanks for any and all help, I just want this thing running perfect so I can get it in the field.

[captian pinky]

The rt effect is a result of 3 things. How broken in the orings are, rt on/off pin length, tank out put pressure.

I suggest pulling it all apart and checking to make sure it is clean and oiled. Then put your tank on it and see if it is setup the way you want. If it is not then you can adjust 1 of the 3 above. I don't recommend going shorter than a .740 rt on/off pin.

[Thedeparted]

Thank you for the quick reply, very much appreciated.

[Nobody]

Each RT reacts differently with each tank. So you can put on your 800psi tank and nothing but your friend's 800psi tank and it does something. Since this is going off what the seller is saying, it will react quite differently when it is in your hands.

With that, look at the length of your on/off, if the RT effect is not where yiu want it. All of the RT effect is from the on/off pin. You can shorten it to get a change to the trigger. Filing it down(go in small increments) and constantly see what is doing in the gun aired up, basically tunes the gun to the tank you are using.

[longi]

An Emag on/off pin and a reg that puts out any pressure above 850 will work well. I'd change the orings as well.

[Tunaman]

An Emag on/off pin and a reg that puts out any pressure above 850 will work well. I'd change the orings as well.

emag pin will be too short in any stock mag.

[ghost flanker]

When you say “RT effect”, are you referring to trigger bounce?

To clarify, RT just means that the trigger, immediately after firing, actively pushes back against your finger with greater force than what was required to pull it. Basically, it assists in speeding up the trigger reset process, but it’s still purely a semi-automatic function. On the other hand, trigger bounce is basically full auto — the bump stock of paintball, if you will — and is not what the manufacturer intended the gun to do. Trigger bounce is kind of an abuse of the RT function and is achieved by shortening the on/off pin and/or increasing your tank’s output pressure. The shorter the pin and/or the higher the tank output pressure, the easier it is to trigger bounce and the higher the rate of fire you can produce. I went down this road a few years back just to see how far I could take it; I used a Dye Rotor, a very short RT on/off pin, and an Armageddon adjustable HPA tank jacked up to about 1250 psi output. Here is the result:
https://youtu.be/saIsaOj11K0

Shooting ~25 balls per second at a tree stump in your backyard is fun and all, but that’s all you will ever do with it. It’s totally impractical and completely unethical for actual paintball play, and I’d never use this level of firepower against another human being. But it’s cool to explore. Just don’t shave down the on/off pin too much because if you do, full auto is ALL the gun will be able to do. That might sound like an attractive feature at first, but I assure you that it’s super annoying to not be able to control your rate of fire. These days, I much prefer a full length RT on/off pin (or a ULT) when I’m not playing pump. In my opinion, trigger bounce is wack and it just makes the gun feel like it’s broken to me.

[JimBobFett]

I don't know what to say ghost flanker... trigger bounce is the whole point of an RT after all. Sounds like you are making more of an argument against RT and X-Valves all together (or any other high ROF marker). In that case, don't buy RT/E/X-Mags in the first place? Stick to cockers, lol. I don't know why you say that 'trigger bounce' (like a bumpstock) isn't what the manufacturer intended the gun to do... it is pretty much exactly what AGD intended the marker to do if its a ReTro, RT, X, or E-Mag valve and exactly why people put SHP (1100-1500psi) tank regulators on these mags.

That being said, I think it is important to point out that there is the 'RT effect' and also 'run-away'; these may overlap and I'm sure many tune their mags to achieve a bit of both but they are two different things. Cutting the ON/OFF is more about causing run-away and can be done on ULT's even; this isn't so much about actually actively returning the trigger 'like a bumpstock' so much as narrowing the position window on a trigger to create a run-away automatic firing window. An RT trigger, if pulled slowly and firmly, should still only result in one firing, but a trigger set up to run away often pops off more than one shot when it hits that 'sweet spot' in the trigger pull. RT'ing is amplified by boosting supply pressure, and run-away is amplified by shortening the ON/OFF pin. To 'cash in' on the RT effect is more about finding the right force to hold your finger at and letting the trigger move it, while 'run away' is more about finding that right constant position in the trigger pull where it keeps firing without moving or barely moving.

[Nobody]

Cause & effect.

Please remember what the intention was when TK found this and what the intention was for, to help eliminate the possibility of short stroking the trigger thus causing problems with trying to fire too fast. The byproduct of that is that if you are good, or take steps to accentuate the effect is that you can fire faster and faster by the design of the valve.

By modifying and implementing the 3 methods(shortening the on/off, ULT and higher than normal pressures) you are moving the range to which this 'Reactive Trigger' come into play. Thus you can tap into the potential of the valve to be able to shoot at the speed that it can. There is a reason why the gun can shoot in the 30bps range without shootdown.

Now, the effect of this, as it is only governed by the end user, is to use all the options, mods and parts in a responsible way. No one needs to pump out fire that fast, but it surely is fun. Whether it is in a game or at a static target, it is fun to unload a hopper as fast as possible(which then is another test in seeing which hoppers can meet their own claims of feed rates).

But the effect of every RT is to reset the trigger positively so that it will return faster than you could possibly pull the trigger is and will always be more viable than a non-reactive trigger. It can be abused, but it shouldn't be avoided just because many don't understand why the trigger is the way it is.

[ghost flanker]

JimBobFett,

In no way did I make an argument against RT style valves. Your comment suggests to me that you either missed the point of what I was trying to say entirely or that you cannot fathom that you’ve essentially been using RT style valves (for lack of a better word) incorrectly. I’ve been shooting Automags of all types since the mid 90s and I actually know a quite a few things about them, so don’t be so quick to conclude that I’m uninformed regarding Automags and should therefore stick to cockers, instead.

I understand people use hpa tanks with extremely high output pressures to make their RTs acheive up to 25 bps or even higher — I’ve done it myself — but you are objectively wrong in saying that this is what AGD intended. But don’t just take my word for it. Below is a link to AGD’s instruction manual for the Automag RT. Please click on it and read the last two sentences of page 2.

http://www.otterpaintball.com/wp-con...-RT-Manual.pdf

Furthermore, read the bottom paragraph of page 4 of the RT instruction manual where it states that the average person who’s all pumped up with adrenaline can fire up to 6 shots per second with the Automag RT. Nothing about that rate of fire suggests that AGD is exploiting the full-auto-esq rapid-fire sweet spot that you claim is the whole point of a reactive trigger.

A properly set up Automag RT will have a trigger that pushes the user’s finger back to the starting position immediately after firing thereby assisting and speeding up the whole process of said finger to pull off the trigger, but is not so reactive that it readily sweet spots (even with practice) and allows multiple shots to fire when the “right finger pressure” is applied to the trigger. That is called trigger bounce and is simply not what the gun was designed nor intended by the manufacturer to do.

[Sandman]

So there are two truths to this story of ROF and the RT
You are both right.
Just be at peace with each other and know that there is truth to both of what you say.
The RT was an amazing discovery that forever changed paintball.
What it was intended to do and what we did with it and what we do with it now are all different stories.
I can say it was not the initial intention to create runaway or RT effect rates of fire....but we sure as hell did when we found out what it could do.

I remember the day Tom brought the early RT's to the paintball field and we all just stared at the ropes of paint leaving the gun. We were firing 20 balls per second with a friggin mag! Hell yes we were playing with the RT effect! That was like Gods gift to Automag users.

And as technology and the rules of paintball advanced so did the RT when ultimately the X-valve was the end result. The X-valve, although capable of runaway fire or raising the input pressure to "RT" more...it is not intended to do those things from the "factory". Those are user adjustments. Just like car manufacturer's don't condone "tuners" being used on their cars. We still do.

I can say now I'm more in Ghost Flankers camp. I don't like "sweet spot" triggers however you want to create it. I don't see the point. Uncontrolled rate of fire is no longer allowed anywhere that carries insurance. The stock x-valve can be walked at 12 BPS without needing to create a runaway situation or using SHP tanks. But if you want to, you certainly can!
Gotta love a MAG!

[JimBobFett]

I think you (Ghost Flanker) and I have a 'terminology problem' then as far as what we are communicating and how we are defining certain things; so yeah, "missed the point" I guess. I broke it down into "trigger bounce" or "RT effect", which to me is like a trigger implemented "bumpstock", and then "sweet spotting" for "runaway" or being very close to full auto. You said "On the other hand, trigger bounce is basically full auto — the bump stock of paintball, if you will — and is not what the manufacturer intended the gun to do." which to me didn't sound right (what confused me)... because wouldn't the "RT Effect" really be the "bump stock of paintball"? Its not like a bump-stock is shortening the trigger pull or achieving runaway full auto... it is forcing the return of the trigger with each shot, like the RT effect.

Maybe "bump stocks" ended up being a bad analogy the more I think about it... is it the trigger relative to the gun or the user that matters here? To me, a bumpstock isn't "runaway" but more like the RT effect... but moving the whole gun (excluding the stock), and I can see how one effectively holding the trigger in one spot while the gun does the work can seem like less of column A, more of column B. I say a bumpstock is more like the RT function, you say its more akin to "sweet spotting"... well, relative to the user's trigger finger, yeah, more "sweet spotting", relative to the gun itself, more like RT.

Anyways, I don't care to go down that rabbit hole anymore than necessary. All I was getting at is that you seemed very discouraging about the OP using the RT function to speed up the ROF, yet he only said that the RT function was weak... to what ends or for what reasons he says this we don't really know; maybe it wasn't a speed concern at all and just that the trigger doesn't develop much "return force" after a shot. I get it, that's essentially what you were asking about. But so what if he wants to use the RT function to speed things up? You yourself said "Basically, it assists in speeding up the trigger reset process, but it’s still purely a semi-automatic function." If he's not trying to speed it up to get a runaway full auto effect, why not go for as high as he can get? But once again, we may be on two different wavelengths anyways... "high speed" is a relative thing unless we start talking exact numbers --> and technically we don't know these things from the OP.

"Nothing about that rate of fire suggests that AGD is exploiting the full-auto-esq rapid-fire sweet spot that you claim is the whole point of a reactive trigger." That's actually not what I was saying... terminology mismatch perhaps, but no, I'm not suggesting "rapid-fire sweet spot" or "multiple shots per single pull" tuning as a goal; never said that. I just know its something people do. How about this, to be more clear; what do YOU consider a good ROF goal to be ONLY using the RT effect, not "sweet spotting for rapid fire"? I'm going to say that I see no problem with >6 BPS myself and I don't think cutting down an on/off pin to achieve that is necessary.

Sorry for mentioning Autocockers. It wasn't a personal insult or anything. I'm just sayin... a mech cocker can hit those speeds. Maybe its an unfair conflation on my part, but most mech tourney rules ban the "RT effect"; so I guess they shouldn't have a problem with it if it only does ~6BPS, no? What they should really be banning is "sweet spotting for full auto/runaway"... but they don't say THAT, do they?

edit: and then Sandman posted while I was typing and summed it all up nicely so never mind, lol. But just to clarify: I never said I was "pro sweet-spotting" for more than one shot per pull... just pointing out that yes, it is something that some people do and not the same thing as tuning for the RT effect. I didn't give my personal opinion about either really. To me, as long as its one shot per pull, its all good and go as fast as you want.

[Konigballer]

Furthermore, read the bottom paragraph of page 4 of the RT instruction manual where it states that the average person who’s all pumped up with adrenaline can fire up to 6 shots per second with the Automag RT. Nothing about that rate of fire suggests that AGD is exploiting the full-auto-esq rapid-fire sweet spot that you claim is the whole point of a reactive trigger.

Ghost Flanker, that verbage, as well as the recommended tank input pressure of 750psi, is the talk of a company that is trying to avoid any and all possible litigation, insurance complications, field or tournament banning, etc. AGD would have known very early in the testing of the RT prototypes what would happen when you increased the air input pressure to the valve. This was created at a time when high pressure, adjustable tank regs like the Air America Apocalypse were the norm. They probably found that out on the first day of the prototype valve! By telling users to set pressure to 750psi, you pretty much negate any possible problems arising from the RT valve's unintended, but phenomenal, performance capability.

This is similar to the way the Detroit 'Big Three' would intentionally underrate the official performance of their most powerful engines during the muscle car era of the late 60's in order to avoid at least some attention from insurance companies and law makers. Some cars, like the Ford Boss 429 Mustang, actually had their engines de-tuned by the factory. They knew good and well what those big block V-8's could really do, much like AGD also knew what the RT Valve could do, even if they officially acted as if they didn't. Heck, AGD did allude to the 'rt' ability when they touted performance capabilities up to 26bps using some kind of computer controlled trigger pulling mechanism. My bet would be that this was a computer controlled 'finger' that actuated the RT's trigger, then maintained the 'sweet spot' while some kind of adjustable tank reg was putting in some serious high pressure!

My take is it's fun to use RT/X valve's both ways! I have some setup to do one or the other, straight semi or 'rt'. That's the beauty of the valve design.

[ghost flanker]

Sandman,

Thank you for setting the record straight on us. Much appreciated!


JimBobFett,

I think you’re right about the terminology thing, and it’s not just you. I thought you meant “sweet spotting” when you referred to “RT effect”. I gotcha now. My bad on that. The term “RT effect” is confusing, though. Really, it’s all RT effect whether you’re talking about a semi-automatic RT straight out of the factory (as described by Thedeparted in his original post) or a runaway full-auto RT, right? I wholly concede the point on that, though.

As for my definition for “trigger bounce”, it is synonomous with “sweet spotting”. My comparison involving bump stocks was in regard to any RT trigger that can be “sweet spotted” to essentially shoot full auto (i.e. achieve more than one shot per physical trigger pull of the user’s finger) via any method of modification, be it overpressirization or on/off pin shortening, which alters and grossly amplifies the behavior of the trigger’s movement against the user’s finger to effectively render an otherwise purely semi-automatic gun (like a stock AR-15 or an unmodified Automag RT running 800 psi) into a fully automatic gun when the right finger pressure is applied to the trigger. And just like how the rate of fire can fluctuate up and down in a sweetspottable RT depending on the precise pressure being applied to the trigger, the same ROF fluctuations apply to a bump stocked AR-15, so I thought the comparison was uncannily accurate. Below are 2 videos that demonstrate what I understood to be trigger bounce, i.e. sweet spotting.

ReTro Valve Automag with a shortened on/off RT pin under 1100 psi.
https://youtu.be/Yb2OOl21bdE

X-Valve XMT Minimag with a ULT on/off shimmed to the max under 1100 psi.
https://youtu.be/3HIh3JytP2E

As you can see, both the Automag and the Minimag here are fully capable of semi-auto as well as full-auto depending on the finger pressure applied to the trigger. I assume you would refer to both videos as demonstrations of runaway, is that correct? Or would you say that runaway is only when single shots are difficult or impossible to achieve?


Konigballer,

I have no doubt that AGD knew what overpressurization in the RT valve could achieve when they developed it. And you may very well be correct regarding their reasons for advising their customers to avoid inputting such high pressures into their RTs. And yes, AGD touted that their new RT valve could achieve 26 bps with a mechically driven “finger”, but I don’t think they were giving their customers the proverbial wink-wink to go overpressurize their RTs. When AGD stated that, they were specifically referring to the RT’s resistance against shootdown, which was a common complaint of 68Automag users back then. That was the Automag RT’s selling point; it would always keep up with you no matter how fast you managed to pull the trigger, which itself was easier to fire more quickly thanks to the significantly lighter trigger pull and trigger reset assist of the RT. And I really do think that AGD built a machine that rapidly cycled an RT valve (at a normal pressure to achieve 26 bps just like how they said. Perhaps Sandman could share his experience with that, as well.

What was the first high-output adjustable HPA paintball tank (capable of output pressures well above 1000 psi) released to the public? Air America Apocolypse, maybe? Whatever it was, was it released before or after the debut of the Automag RT in 1996?