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Thread: Mag use in 2019's big mech Events

  1. #1

    Mag use in 2019's big mech Events

    Recently I've had conversations with both the NXL and the Iron City Classic event promoters. Both events do not have a specific ban on the use of any kind of gun or valve as long as it does not exceed the guidelines. I asked specifically if X-valves or RT valves were banned. They are not. However, you will have your gun, team, player etc... banned if you are an idiot and attempt to defeat the rules.
    The rules are constructed around not allowing a gun to rapid fire, burts fire, bounce fire, full auto or any other nonsense that a user tries to do that makes their gun shoot out of control. It's simple, set the gun up to shoot in control.

    One shot per pull.
    No RT effect .
    No Bounce.
    No rapid uncontrolled firing.
    No sweet spotting the pull.

    At this time there are no specific restrictions to any Automags as they have not had any issues so far. They have banned the use of double triggers on some guns like the CVO conversion, because they know for a fact that with a double trigger the gun can be walked at up to 17BPS. Therefore no double trigger on those guns. Mags have yet to be restricted in any way.

    Please, if you enter an event using any version of an Automag do not push the rules. Do these things:

    Do not set-up the guns with SHP tanks.
    Keep your output at 800 psi or less. You need to stop any RT effect.
    You may need lower input PSI with RT-style valves to eliminate the power curve on the RT effect.
    The RT effect is not allowed! Don't do it. It will get you banned and restrictions put on Mags.

    Do not use short on/off pins.
    Use a longer pin to keep the activation point far enough away so you cannot shoot more than one shot per trigger activation.
    .750 pins should be good but you might need longer depending on the specific gun and how it's been modded or built.
    There are so many modded parts (rails, bodies, frames) floating around it's impossible to say one length will work.

    Test your gun fully, so beyond any doubt it only shoots one ball per pull, and is impossible to make the gun double fire....EVER.
    You should not be able to find any kind of sweet spot in your trigger path to activate a double shot or more...

    If you need assistance in setting up a gun for an event, reach out via email to me and I'll work with you to make sure you are legal and stay legal.

    If you know of an event promoter banning mags because they are ignorant of the product, let me know I will reach out and educate them.
    Mech event promoters should understand that Mags are able to define and refine their rate of fire and that it is players who choose to create run away guns.
    Back in the day when the arms race for guns was on and no rules existed there was a wild west attitude. Anything goes! and Mags were excellent at anything goes! Not anymore.
    Smart promoters will punish the player for breaking the rules and not ban the gun.
    However, if players of a certain make of gun are found to always be breaking the rules then some promoters may feel they have no choice but to ban or restrict because they don't need the headache.
    Let's not let this happen.

    Let's get Mags back in the game, by playing by the rules. Use your skills to win.
    Last edited by Sandman; 02-14-2019 at 08:24 PM.
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  2. #2
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    Would switching to the UltraLight Trigger kit also help reduce bouncing? Or is that just as dependent on input pressure and set up?

  3. #3
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    FYI - X/RT/Emag valves shoot much more consistently at <850 psi. I have ones that I run at 700-750 that are awesome. IMO that is what you should be aiming for..

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRealKaz View Post
    Would switching to the UltraLight Trigger kit also help reduce bouncing? Or is that just as dependent on input pressure and set up?
    The ULT was never intended to work with SHP tanks. I'm sure it's been used in some set-ups with RT effect, but its intention is to reduce the weight of the pull not be reactive.
    Ultimately its up to you how you want it to feel. As long as it's passes the testing, do what works best for you.
    I think stock on/off with .750 pin or longer will work best to stay in the rules, but that's just my observation.

  5. #5
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    My T-Rex should be able to be tuned to fit the rules, I can even put a stiffer spring in the T-Rex to slow it down.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by luke View Post
    My T-Rex should be able to be tuned to fit the rules, I can even put a stiffer spring in the T-Rex to slow it down.
    The T-Rex is still using the AGD stock linkage and sear for firing, so it's not specifically restricted like guns with direct valve influence like the CVO.
    Ultimately it will be based on whether they have any issues with it on the field. If the events feel like the gun shoots too fast due to manipulation of the mechanism..they will ban or restrict.
    If a player plans to use your mechanism with a Mag they need to make sure it does not defeat the intent of the rules.
    Look at it like the electronic rules. 10.2 BPS. Basically they are trying to keep guns at 10bps. Mech guns can exceed that, but they don't want it. So it will be up to the player to make sure the gun is legal.

  7. #7
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    Yea, I was talking to a customer about this a few weeks back. On the T-Rex, I can change out the internal spring, tune the LPR and input pressure from the tank and get the correct length on/off to de-tune it, and as long as the player controls himself it shouldn't be a problem.

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    The solution I would like to see but know it will never happen...aluminum "Classic" valves being released!

  9. #9
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    First off, thank you sandman. You're the mag ambassador. I too would like to see mags vs cockers at these events like the old days. Although I'm a fan of cockers too. Mags have my heart. I hope the same observation will be used on cocker trigger pull. I think I read somewhere that nothing short of a 2mm trigger pull will be accepted.

  10. #10
    So general rules for tournament friendly 'Mags:
    - classic valves: none
    - X valves: no Reactive sweet spot, tank output below 1000psi, on/off pin no less than 0.750"
    - ULTs: same as X valves?
    - pneumatic triggers: same as X valves?

    But the AutoResponse frame is still a no-go, yeah?
    >>WTB<< Sydarm w/ constant air__WarpedMephisto half-c/f body__Ac!d c/f trigger__TASO humpback frame__an Oh-Mag

  11. #11
    Sandman posted: Let's get Mags back in the game, by playing by the rules. Use your skills to win.
    Already have Sandman.. Bottom left of the last Iron City Classic poster, what's that in my hand? :-) AGD!!!

    Name:  ICC Classic poster Dave Cilio.jpg
Views: 882
Size:  123.2 KB
    Last edited by DaveCilio; 02-14-2019 at 11:36 PM.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walking Stick View Post
    So general rules for tournament friendly 'Mags:
    - classic valves: none
    - X valves: no Reactive sweet spot, tank output below 1000psi, on/off pin no less than 0.750"
    - ULTs: same as X valves?
    - pneumatic triggers: same as X valves?

    But the AutoResponse frame is still a no-go, yeah?

    Honestly i would avoid the ult in double trigger frames as it could be considered walkable. same goes for the trex.

    also i believe there is a clause in the rules about markers not having trigger assist. I was reading this as basically a direct linkage between the sear of the marker unless it is a spool in which case it has to have a single trigger frame.

  13. #13
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    Thank you for making this post Sandman.
    If you end up needing help please let me know. I am more than willing to help keep them on the field.
    #BeardedWorks

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Walking Stick View Post
    So general rules for tournament friendly 'Mags:
    - classic valves: none
    - X valves: no Reactive sweet spot, tank output below 1000psi, on/off pin no less than 0.750"
    - ULTs: same as X valves?
    - pneumatic triggers: same as X valves?

    But the AutoResponse frame is still a no-go, yeah?
    Classic valves should not have any issues for sure. Unless you do something to modify the gun.
    800 psi or less....if you try using 1000 psi I'm sure you will be booted. It's been discussed about even banning output over 800psi in mech events.
    on/off pins under .750 are typically used to create a sweet spot. I wouldn't recommend it.
    ULT's can be used. Again no specific limitations. But if you make the gun capable of firing too fast and you decide to walk to trigger, it's gonna be on you. Make sure your shim stack doesn't create double, or multi-fire effects.
    Do a ULT with single trigger frame as Pinky suggested.
    Do Pneumatics with single trigger frame too.

    Autoresponse triggers are innately dangerous because you can't pull the trigger without firing two shots. Any kind of burst of double fire mode is banned at my field and I'm sure likely banned from Mech tournament use.
    Although I did not specifically address that frame, the assumption is those violate the rules.

    Lets' keep it simple, safe and under control.


    Quote Originally Posted by DaveCilio View Post
    Already have Sandman.. Bottom left of the last Iron City Classic poster, what's that in my hand? :-) AGD!!!

    Name:  ICC Classic poster Dave Cilio.jpg
Views: 882
Size:  123.2 KB
    Oh yeah!
    Last edited by Sandman; 02-15-2019 at 02:20 PM.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by JKR View Post
    The solution I would like to see but know it will never happen...aluminum "Classic" valves being released!
    Never going to happen from AGD. Costs basically the same to produce and the X-valve is quite better. Plus there are 100,000 classic valves already out there that will last until we are all dead.
    Just hit the gym for a week so you don't notice the weight difference!

  16. #16
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    Not to add to the confusion but some of the autoresponse frames do have a notch in the top of the pin that allows it to only fire on pull not on release. It essentially limits the pull to the first half. Just thought i would add it.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandman View Post
    Never going to happen from AGD. Costs basically the same to produce and the X-valve is quite better. Plus there are 100,000 classic valves already out there that will last until we are all dead.
    Just hit the gym for a week so you don't notice the weight difference!
    What about new aluminum backs for classic valves? for anodizing purposes of course, I know I have a pump build waiting for anodizing cause I want a an aluminum back and can't bear to send off my shocktech back and get that purdy lasering removed

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by alpha_q_up23 View Post
    What about new aluminum backs for classic valves? for anodizing purposes of course, I know I have a pump build waiting for anodizing cause I want a an aluminum back and can't bear to send off my shocktech back and get that purdy lasering removed
    The shocktech etch isn't that impressive. I think you should just get it re-anno to match your build.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk

  19. #19
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    When you see Bacci on occasion anything done to deface old paintball parts(no matter how cool it ends up being) always comes with a sense of shame lol

  20. #20
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    Alright, I'll give you that one. I retract my previous statement.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk

  21. #21
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    He already teased me about cocker threading/freak boring a splash barrel and pump milling a matching rail...
    I gave him this look ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ but deep down I cried a bit

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by alpha_q_up23 View Post
    When you see Bacci on occasion anything done to deface old paintball parts(no matter how cool it ends up being) always comes with a sense of shame lol
    And he is?

    Seriously, unless he is willing to over pay what a junk part is(really all aftermarket reg backs did nothing over stock), it is yours to do as you please. If he wants to preserve the part, have him replace it for you. He is nothing but a part hound masquerading as a historian. If it wasn't for Firpo, he would never get any of the guns he "rescues" ahooting. Just a man with a fat wallet...

  23. #23
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    I’ve seen plenty of fixes done by Bacci on the fly at throw together event days, including some of my own old markers. Anyone who has taken time out of their personal life to show you how cool old stuff could be and invest hours upon hours making videos and interviews for the public to check out is what the paintball community really needs. Sure Firpo May have a hand in helping but who wouldn’t want a master tech on their side?

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody View Post
    really all aftermarket reg backs did nothing over stock
    Yeah, you're totally right, they don't do anything over stock, cause as everyone knows who owns a classic valve, steel is as light as aluminum and can be anodized

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by alpha_q_up23 View Post
    Yeah, you're totally right, they don't do anything over stock, cause as everyone knows who owns a classic valve, steel is as light as aluminum and can be anodized
    Was talking about performance, not looks. Besides, i am plenty strong, lifting my ego(persona not marker) all over in this joint!

  26. #26
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    I would agree lighter is performance, but since you've got that covered with that ego of yours.. haha

    I just got signed up to a local mech tournament. Going to play around with a ULT to see if I can get it nice and light but with-in the rules.

  27. #27
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    Awesome to see your planning on using your mag, I’m doing a local 10man that consist of 7 pumps and 3 mechs, I’m pretty sure we will have at least 5 or 6 mags going that day, under 850 psi and we should all be good!

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandman View Post
    Never going to happen from AGD. Costs basically the same to produce and the X-valve is quite better.
    I understand your position from a company standpoint. However, I will say "better" is certainly a matter of opinion in this discussion.

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    We need a like button.

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