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Thread: Body Mechanics and Accuracy

  1. #1
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    Body Mechanics and Accuracy

    OK I've read just about every post about accuracy in paintball and I have idea about how instead of how to make you Marker accurate. What about how make yourself (your body) become more accurate with proper shooting positions and good techniques that will help develop a straighter shooting player.

    A.)The majority of players that I see shooting are cradling their marker close to their body and are trying to shoot as fast as possible in a short amount of time.

    B.)player is cradling their tank in the crease of thier forearm and bicep and yanking on the trigger with alot of force, with a bent wrist.

    C.)another style I see alot of a person with a large drop forward, which creates a marker with little or no extentsion of the tank beyond the marker and he or she will typically shoot the marker with it proped on their shoulder and pulling the trigger in a diagonal downward motion

    Does anyone take these things into consideration when trying improve on accurracy? do you think that these variables effect how accurate a person is or is not?

    Couple of things i think that may affect accuracy is when a person is shooting in position B he or she is typically shoots their marker with a bent or over extended wrist and when pulling on the trigger in this position wouldn't it create a jerking motion from both the contraction of upper body muscles such as the bicep and the shoulder.

    I was wondering if there has been any study or research or thought behind this? If so what do you think about my idea is something that you consider to be a problem is the great accuracy debate or Am I just trying to promote the power of the paintball elves?

    I have thought about the Z-grip and was wondering if you think that it not only eases stress on the wrist but helps in accuracy by allowing a player to shoot from a less ackward position.
    Obstacles are what you see when you take your eyes off of your Objective.

  2. Of course there is a difference in accuracy between different shooting positions.

    Think of it this way. If you had a 9mm Baretta (sp?) and held it at arm's length shooting targets, you would be WAY more accurate than if you cradled it with bent wrists closer to your body.

    At least, that's the way I see it.

    What do the rest of you think?

  3. #3
    YAY a topic i know something about!!

    anyway i am glad to see people thinking of this stuff because i see people in those horrible shooting positions you mentioned above all the time. infact most of the people i see do that.

    these are some things that if you do not do you will not be accurrate at all no matter how much money or how many balls you WAISTE on someone. if you do not take time to aim for each shot you may as well throw the balls by hand.


    when you fire a shot imagine the balls path down the barrel. it quickly is thrusted through the hollow cylinder then leaves it and travels through the air. now imagine that you had a slight movement as you fired. this means the ball would be traveling through the barrel and would pick up a momentum from the movement cuasing the paint ball to go off target in the air. this is a fact that i have proven time and time again to skeptics.

    i actually have a us military sniper training and employment book with me so ill type what it says about assuming a firing position and aiming ( this is the real deal here )

    3-1. Using the fundamentals of marksmanship
    A sniper must be thoroughly trained in the fundamentals of marksmanship. These include assuming a position, aiming, breath control, and trigger control. These fundamentals develop fixed and correct shooting habbits for instinctive application. Every sniper should periodically refamiliarize himself with these fundamentals regardless of his experience.

    a. Assuming a firing position. The sniper should fire from a prone firing position (Figure 3-1 i will include this figure soon). Only when a prone supported position cannot be used will the sniper use an alternate type of position. In any type of position, the sniper should always use artificial support for the weapon. This can be sandbags, rucksacks, logs, or anything that will provide a stable platform for the rifle. This reduces movement of the weapon cuase by contact with the body. First shot accuracy is an absolute must for the sniper's mission. Ther are five elements common to a good firing position.

    1. Nonfiring hand. Use the nofiring hand to support the butt of the weapon. The sniper places his hand next to his chest and rests the tip of the butt on it. He balls his hand into a fist to raise the weapons butt. A preferred method to do this is to hold a sock full of sand in the nonfiring hand and place the weapon butt on the sock. This reduces body contact with the weapon. To raise the butt, the sniper squeezes the sock and to lower it he loosens his grip on the sock.

    2. Butt of the stock. Place the butt of the stock firmly in the pocket of the shoulder. The sniper can insert a pad on the ghillie suit where contact with the butt is made this reduces pulse beat and breathing effects that can be transmitted to the weapon.

    3. Firing hand. With the firing hand, grip the small of the stock. Using the middle through little fingers, expert a slight rearward pull to keep the butt of the weapon firmly in the pocket of the shoulder. Place the thumb over the top of the small of the stock. Place the index finger on the trigger ensuring it does not touch the stock of the weapon and will not disturb the lay of the rifle when the trigger is pulled.

    4. Elbows. Find a comfortable position that provides the greatest support.

    5. Stock weld. The sniper needs to ensure he places his cheeck in the same place on the stock with each shot. A change in stock weld tends to cause misalignment of sights, thus creating misplaced shots.


    b. Aiming the Rifle. Begin the aiming process by aligning the rifle with the target when assuming a firing position. The rifle should point naturally at the desired point. No muscular tension or movement should be necessary to hold the sights on target. To check the narual point of aim, the sniper assumes a comfortable, stable firing position. He then places his cheek on the stock at the correct stock weld, enters into the natural respiratory pause, looks away from the scope by moving only his eye, relaxes and lets the rifle drift to its natural point of aim, and then looks back into the scope. If the reticle is in the correct location on the target, the natural point of aim is correct. If it is not correct, the sniper must change his body position to bring the sights onto the target. If muscles are used to adjust the weapon onto the point of aim, the muscles will automatically relax as the rifle fires, and the rifle will begin to move toward its natural point of aim. Because this movement begins just before the weapon discharges, the rifle is moving as the bullet leaves the muzzle. This causes displaced shots with no apparent cause (recoil disguises the movement). By adjusting the weapon and body as a single unit, rechecking, and readjusting as necessary, the sniper achieves a true natural point of aim. Once the position is established, the sniper will then aim the weapon at the exact point on the target.

    ok thats enough typing for now...

    straight from the horses mouth those fundamentals are all far more important than what kind of barrel you use or even what kind of gun you use ( to an extent im not saying that these tactics will make your talon shoot like a deam hehe )

    last week i took my sl68 II pump with a gas through stock and stock barrel out to a game i was playing against all electros and mags and people that enjoyed waisting paint without aiming or even thinking about what they were doing but i didnt mind cuz i play with people like that all the time its their cash and lack of skill (i know i shouldnt say that but its the truth).

    the first game i took out three electros. shot one guy in the mask through a 5x10 is window in a fort another guy as he tried to exit the fort and there was one guy in there that all i could see was his had the rest was behind the wall i was about 40 ft away so i took what i could remember from the above fundamentals into consideration, aimed and shot. not only did i hit his hand but i hit it dead on. each of these players were eliminated with a single shot.

    this should help anyone interested in improving their accuracy.

    its the player not the gun!!!
    one bullet can kill a man just as well as 50
    anyone who says that mags are crappy guns is an ignorant moron. anyone who says that mags are the best guns in the world is an ignorant moron. anyone that thinks that you need massive rate of fire to be good is an ignorant moron.

    as you can see there are a lot of ignorant morons in paintball...

  4. #4
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    Most players you see with the odd shooting postitions, with the markers held at strange angles close to the body, are speedball players. The position they take is designed to make them small behind a bunker. This position doesn't lend itself well to perfect firing conditions, obviously, but it does keep you from being a target in a wide open speedball field where you don't have time to set up the perfect shot.

    The debate about accuracy in paintball comes from bench mounted guns and their testing. Depending on the gun setups, barrels, paint, etc., there is a deate raging on about how to obtain better overall accuracy. How people handle that accuracy in their personal shooting style is another matter.
    Except for the Automag in front, its usually the man behind the equipment that counts.

  5. #5
    i disagree entirely (no offense intended). one thing i see a lot among semi players is that when feel safe when they lean out of their bunker and fire a million rounds but they are being exposed for in many cases more time than a single well placed shot. on any sort of field lack of proper aim is rediculous.

    being a pump player i see things through a little different perspective semis will be throwing lots of paint at me but the thing is they arent taking time to aim inbetween shots though the volume of fire may intimedate inexperience players i find it much safer than someone who is watching youre every move waiting for that oppertunity to take you out.

    whether youre a semi player or a pump player taking time to aim each shot is a neccessary thing and people that do it are much more skilled and experience than those who do not..

    experienced people take the time to aim and shoot because they know that in the long run it will save them time and thus be safer to them.

    people that shoot lots of paint and dont aim are nervous people who just pull the trigger as fast as they can out of fear of being killed. and thats the truth. get with the program and aim people its not about BPS it is about marksmanship and strategy and it is foolish to argue with that.

    in a platoon wandering through the jungle are they gonna shoot 600 rounds at a single target while aiming from their chest jeopardizing the whole team by deminishing the ammo supply and giving away the position to anyone that can hear.

    if you are in a position that you cant take the time to aim you are just in a bad position and no amount of BPS or incorrect cradle positions can change that..

    people should spend more time thinkging about the tactics of the game rather than how fast they can shoot their gun.

    just my views not meant to upset anyone, feel free to comment!

  6. #6
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    Originally posted by topekoms
    feel free to comment!
    I will. See, in speedball, you really can't use the "perfect firing conditions" method, because when someone snapshoots, it takes 1-2 seconds. So, you have to get all of that stuff done in about 1 second, then I'll give you about 1 second to pull the trigger, and the marker to cycle, and the paintball to miss(because paintballs are terribly inaccurate, which is another reason ROF will win against your "perfect firing conditions"). And all this time you are exposed. So you are going to be shot out.
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  7. #7
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    Well working at a shop and doing some limited real gun shooting has alway lent myself to keep away from those "Super small tight" set ups for several reason.

    #1 makes the gun taller

    #2 makes you kink you head/neck to target

    #3 Shooting possision is not easyly repetable, bad bad bad for snap shooting.

    I have managed to convert a LOT of people back to the basic drop tank mounts like the small Dove tails and minium ammount of drop/forwardness. People have found that it easier to shoot faster and they are more accurate with teh guns because they are not contorting thier necks to get a target picture.

    -Robert
    Serving AGD customers since 93, wishing I could beat some common since into some of them about 5 hrs later.


  8. #8
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    As far as paintball is concerned, you can only hope to get your shots within so many inches of each other, so depending on your position, firing stance dosent really matter as much. For a back man, they usually have the time to take 1 or 2 tracers to get on target, so they can hold their gun however they want.
    Quote of the year: "Reading blwos"

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  9. #9
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    I have been involved in paintball since 1991, and involved in firing all kinds of firearms from pistols and machine guns to anti-aircraft and anti-armor missiles professionally since 1992. The dude who spoke of the quotes from the sniper manual has hit the tip of the iceberg. You are on the right track as far a the principles of marksmanship are concerned, however the methods applied to a weapons system involve one common denominator...consistency. This is where the paintball marker differs. You cannot get firearms type consistency from current markers, no way, no how. But applying the principles of marksmanship to your shooting program will increase accuracy on the human level, which is decisive in most cases. What goes hand in hand with that is training, practice until it hurts. Letting the specific muscle groups adapt to shooting and allowing muscle memory to overide the conscious mind and take over will give you the drop on your opponent. This is crucial especially in our sport. Just like the gymnast who executes those crazy moves on the mats , allowing the training to take over and get the job done. I could speak volumes on the topic but it will fall upon deaf ears. Kudos to the guy who typed all that text. I am cramping up just with this paragragh.
    Right on to the real.
    Death to the fakers.

  10. #10
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    Shooting a paintball gun is probably closer in practice to shooting a shotgun. Therefore, ergonomicly on that basis alone you would find hitting targets easier with a shotgun shaped marker, with a foregrip parallel with the barrel, and a more layed back angle on the grip. Even submachine guns like the MP5 use a similar shape to promote natural pointing. But paintball offers it's own special considerations, such as maintaining a small profile, and promoting a highr ROF, benifits of a more upright and tighter firing position.
    I believe the parallel foregrip, single trigger setup will add a significant fraction of accuracy to your shooting. I think that is why I can do so well with my Phantom, mainly because of the way I hold it.
    Another fact is that if you point at something with you index finger, even without looking down your arm, your finger will invariably be pointing right at what you are aiming for.
    Test it...it works. Point at something anywhere, and have a friend eyeball behind your arm, and check it out for yourself.
    Just using this one little trick by pulling your trigger with your middle finger and laying your index finger down the axis of your gun will improve snap-shooting noticably.
    Brent Jackson, PFB.
    I don't practice anymore: I'm just good in a natural, vicious sort of way.

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  11. #11
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    speedball

    It has been referred to here, but this is what I think.

    In speed ball, you have to pop out, identify a
    target, fire 1 -3 shots, and pop back. This takes
    speed, discipline, and accuracy.

    The best thing any one can do is shoot their marker.
    The more you shoot it, the more accustomed you
    become to where your shots will go.

    Shoot from weird angles, shoot it sideways,
    from laying down, from everywhere.

    You have to know, without thinking, the relationship
    between how your hands are positioned and where
    the ball will hit.

    I am an NRA certified handgun instructor, with
    15 years of shooting pistol, rifle, and shotgun
    under my belt. The closest thing in paintball
    to real shooting or however, is shooting clay
    pigeons w/ an over/under shotgun.

    The best thing to do is to shoot case after
    case of paint.

    -rob


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  12. #12
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    Cool not the same thing

    topecoms,

    I'm not disagreeing with the technical info you've presented, but I don't think you understand very much about paintball. That stuff is probably useful for sneaking about the woods and sniping, but has little or no value in a game like speedball. I mean, you don't see assult teams use those techniques do you? No, those are for snipers.

    Paintguns make terrible sniper weapons because the ballistics are terrible. Even a well tuned marker will shoot with a several inch spread at reasonable distances. True, there are many inexperienced players who just shoot without knowing where they are shooting, but you will find the most experienced players often shoot a high volume of paint with good aim. The comments about nervous people and fear of being killed are pretty much out of line.

    You can't observe a couple of yokels at the local field and figure you've seen it all. Watch a good team and you'll see guys laying a stream of paint with very high accuracy right where they want it - or 2 or 3 balls at the just the right spot on a snap shoot (which can't use the techniques you've outlined, since by definition you have to move to see the target).

    There are good reasons for multiple fast shots:
    1) the goal might be to keep an opponent in his bunker so your player can move
    2) if you shoot one ball and it goes low, you miss the guy, two or three and one might get him
    3) if you get him, the ball might bounce - 2 or 3 increases the odds of a break.
    4) the target might not be visible, but is going to pop out for 1-2 seconds, which is shorter than the travel time of a ball - if you lay a short stream at him you might catch him comming out.

    These are all good reasons for high rate of fire shooting. They are not good reasons for shooting with poor aim. In that, I'll give you a thumbs up, paintball players need to work on their aim. The problem is, most of the techniques used for regular firearms are not appropriate for paintball (as some of the other experienced people here have pointed out).

    Don't be so critical - one of those nervous peole who fear getting killed may end up waxing your tail!

    FatMan

    Dirty old men need love too!

  13. #13
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    Cool

    i have two words for anyone who is looking to improve volly to volly accuracy, SIGHT PICTURE! if you maintain the same site picture from engagement to engagment the ball will hit the same spot every time you start shooting. the way this i accomplished is by making sure that your gun comes up to shoot in the same exact position every time,impossible you say, not so! i have a hyperflow 301 with a drop forward, at the wistle the butt of my tank is set directy between my pecs so that the valve is rightin front of my nose, instead of an eye(giving me long range depth perception)and it stays there for the rest of the game. i can drop the front to move, even run, when i get to the next bunker, the front of my gun comes up and tada, i have the same exact sight picture that i had during my last string of shots. try it ithinyou will fing tat it works vry well! school ya later kiddies!

  14. #14
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    hmm....

    well, that is great for back players, but can you pop out
    of your bunker and put 2 rounds on me before I pop you?

    -rob

  15. #15
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    No doubt most everyone worth their salt has a decent technique, otherwise you'd get hosed all the time and quit. Everyone on this thread has brought up valid arguements that is the point, right ? With enough practice putting rounds down range and the right focus you can just peek out let off a quick burst and pop your opponent right in the face. You need to shoot enough that your skill doesn't perish. I have noticed on several occasions that the consistency and quality of our beloved Automag has been i the hands of those peeps who do pop out and shoot that rich kid with his 1,000 round per minute Angel right in the face. It makes it all worth it. I have been using a Minmag since 1995 and it happens all the time.
    The marksmanship technigues discussed previously aren't intended for "snipers". I believe that with the propoer fundamentals applied the well aimed shots add up to tens of rounds fired, not hundreds. So called "sniping" is boring and not too practical.

  16. #16
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    I have always been a rec'baller and scenario player, and have never had much interest in speedball.

    After becoming fed up with the heavy and cumbersome tank-under-gun setup everyone else seems capable of tolerating, I opted for a remote setup with a gas-thru-stock. Being able to shoulder the marker like a rifle (or shotgun) has greatly improved my kill ratio, but now I've grown tired of being constantly hindered by the coiled hose.

    For those of us who own a Flatline, I have modified the design of the stock drop forward by adding 2 inches to the portion that screws into your bottomline to create a "raise-rearward". Although this does increase the overall length of the marker, it creates a much more comfortable shooting position and allows you to aim directly across the top (handy if you use a sight or scope, like I do).







    If anyone is interested in purchasing one of these raise-rearward's, please PM me for further details.
    Last edited by borph; 04-16-2006 at 06:06 PM. Reason: thread resurrection
    -DocJ

    ReTroMag: XValve, ZBody, 12" Lapco Bigshot .697, Extreme Rage Omega body rail, Armson folding foregrip, ProLine Autoresponse (intellifed), Dye Stickies, Adco Hot Shot
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    Remote: 3K Flatline, Furon coiled hose, Staubli ProConnect QD w/shut off, Smart Parts gas-thru stock, Back Bottle Adapter, microline, 1+2 made from an Army surplus gas mask bag

  17. #17
    Originally posted by borph

    For those of us who own a Flatline, I have modified the design of the stock drop forward by adding 2 inches to the portion that screws into your bottomline to create a "raise-rearward". Although this does increase the overall length of the marker, it creates a much more comfortable shooting position and allows you to aim directly across the top (handy if you use a sight or scope, like I do).

    If anyone is interested in purchasing one of these raise-rearward's, please PM me for further details.
    Interesting concept, could you post a couple of pics? Thanks,

    -Calvin
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  18. #18
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    With the rise of electros, I'm amazed no-one has taken the initiative to develop a speedball marker.

    What I mean is, the position of the trigger is nolonger dependant on the position of the sear. So why not do something like the bullpup designed guns?

    Build the marker so that you can butt it against your shoulder and have you firing arm extended comfortably.

  19. #19
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    Originally posted by SlartyBartFast
    With the rise of electros, I'm amazed no-one has taken the initiative to develop a speedball marker.

    What I mean is, the position of the trigger is nolonger dependant on the position of the sear. So why not do something like the bullpup designed guns?

    Build the marker so that you can butt it against your shoulder and have you firing arm extended comfortably.
    I have had thoughts like that, found myself shouldering the m98s at my site and seeing how the front grip feels. I think that something like that (or a mag ) could work out nicely as a bullpup. Low profile, but long and shoulderable.

  20. #20
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    Originally posted by Jon S
    I have had thoughts like that, found myself shouldering the m98s at my site and seeing how the front grip feels. I think that something like that (or a mag ) could work out nicely as a bullpup. Low profile, but long and shoulderable.
    The big drawback of a bullpup design is that it puts the marker too close to your mask. Still, I’d love to see a HALO/Warp/EMag version of the FNH F2000.

  21. #21
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    Originally posted by borph
    Read a few articles about the bullpup design, and you'll find that "it does nothing" for accuracy.
    http://www.geocities.com/notorious_r...uzzlelite.html
    It does look really comfortable, though.
    http://www.automags.org/forums/showt...266#post254266
    Uhm, the first article says nothing about the acuracy of the bullpup design. It’s the modification of the barrel that affected the accuracy (although supposedly increased power).
    But, you are probably right. The bullpup design is really all about making the rifle shorter/compact and more maneuverable.
    Although, the following claims superiority of a bullpup design compared to other military rifles.
    http://www.steyr-aug.com/article.htm
    Austrian military trials then compared the AUG with the FN FAL (Austrian Stg 58 in 7.62mm NATO), the Czech Vz58 in 7.62x39 ComBloc, and the 5.56mm NATO FN CAL and Colt M16A1. The AUG proved to be at least as reliable as any of its competitors. It also proved to be superior in accuracy potential, target acquisition, handling characteristics, and full-auto fire controllability. In short, the AUG proved to be a winner.
    But, for paintball it’s a different matter. Any shouldering of a marker compared to the bizarre contortions players get into while firing would be an improvement in accuracy. Seeing as one of the excuses of bizarre firing positions is ‘playing tight’ a bullpup design might fit the bill. I my mind, it would certainly be more desirable than z, y, or 90 degree trigger frames.
    Indeed, the ‘design’ of these trigger frames and paintball players firing positions destroy one of the ergonomic advantages of a standard trigger framed pistol. The ability of using your natural ability to point with your index finger and instinctively be on target is destroyed. Bye-bye accurate pistol snap shooting. But then again, paintball markers are far more akin to rifles in way of handling. (Now there’s an idea, need a balanced high round capacity pistol for paintball.)
    I don’t know how bullpup design compares in this regard. But it would have the disadvantage that you would then have to use your whole body to line up the marker. But for a back player, it would shorten your marker and lower your profile. For a forward player, it might be of advantage for bunkering, crawling, or firing from prone/kneeling positions.
    Can’t really say, because I’ve never handled a bullpup. Would love to try shooting one though. Particularly a P90 or F2000. Unlikely that will ever happen though.
    The idea of the rounds going off an inch from my skull is a little unnerving, but isn’t too different from shouldering an Uzi with a stock (give or take 6 inches).
    I’m really not sure of the cocker based “bullpup” in the AO thread. Looks awfully long and cumbersome. Granted it looks like a long barrel is being used, but the cocker body isn’t particularly compact and the ‘box’ underneath looks uncomfortable.

  22. #22
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    Originally posted by SlartyBartFast

    Uhm, the first article says nothing about the acuracy of the bullpup design. It’s the modification of the barrel that affected the accuracy (although supposedly increased power).
    But, you are probably right. The bullpup design is really all about making the rifle shorter/compact and more maneuverable.
    True. That was a pretty bad example. What I meant was that the bullpup is an inherently inaccurate design because (as with any gun) the closer your sighting eye is to the muzzle, the worse your sight picture gets. This is why one should always hold a handgun at arm's length. However, expensive scopes can overcome this disadvantage with real bullpups.

    Originally posted by SlartyBartFast
    But, for paintball it’s a different matter. Any shouldering of a marker compared to the bizarre contortions players get into while firing would be an improvement in accuracy. Seeing as one of the excuses of bizarre firing positions is ‘playing tight’ a bullpup design might fit the bill. I my mind, it would certainly be more desirable than z, y, or 90 degree trigger frames.
    I Google'd for bullpup accuracy and it seems to me that while the design is not necessarily suited for shooting at far away targets, it showed definite improvement in short range automatic fire. Which without a doubt makes it ideal for front players.

  23. #23
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    Originally posted by borph
    What I meant was that the bullpup is an inherently inaccurate design because (as with any gun) the closer your sighting eye is to the muzzle, the worse your sight picture gets.
    Which is true only if you're using fixed iron sights and the end of the muzzle.

    Many military weapons use raised sight bars/handles or sights. So shortening the length has no effect on the use of the weapon in terms of accuracy.

    The real issues from military types against bullpups seem to be:
    i - Dislike of something bizzare.
    ii - The ejection of spent cases so close to the user. Non-ambidextrous design. (Many can be changed from left to right by moving a plate. The F2000 is truly different and ejects spent cartridges forward under the barrel.)
    iii - Having to be shouldered, they expose more of the user when firing around corners.

    Responses seem to be:
    i - Get used to it.
    ii - Well, addressed by the F2000 design certainly.
    iii - You shouldn't shoot around corners in the first place.

  24. #24
    Hear me out on this one....

    I know that several people have come up with working examples to this concept. What we are looking for is a lightweight, fairly accurate marker that has some ergonomic features built into it for the sake of increasing overall shooting performance and marksmanship. These goals are being pursued with the full knowledge of the accuracy limitations of current markers and paint. So, where does this leave my logic?

    First thing we want to do is produce a lightweight gun with a heavy ended barrel. I am referencing basic biomechanics and engineering principles here. It is much better to have a disproportionate amount of weight of the gun in the muzzle/barrel, because the weight tends to help minimize jittering induced by the firer AND help with muzzle rise. See my sig to see the rig I shoot. I recently bought a device that effectively serves as a muzzle weight for the end of a stock length AutoMag barrel, and it (off the cusp) feels easier to control versus a MM barrel when rapid firing as well as slow aiming.

    Second thing we want to do is remove as much weight from the rest of the marker. I'm not talking about using composites everywhere, but an X-Valve, ULE Body and a diet for the Mag (drilled out rail, etc) itself is probably in order.

    Third thing is to reduce the weight of the marker as normally outfitted. That means going remote with HPA. I envision using a velcro strap-type system that effectively runs the remote line up the back and over the shoulder, attached at the arm (loosely) on the outer bicep and forearm and terminating into the marker. Also, a method where a Warp stores paint off the marker (either on the chest or back) and feeds through a hose tube up to the marker (which may require a warp on it to ensure plenty of positive feed pressure). I would be willing to live with just a warp on my gun if I could remove the hopper full of paint. We can even change the orientation and basic design of the on-gun warp to accomodate a feed coming from the bottom, side or angle to the marker. The feed hose would be secured by a strap system similar to the remote line.

    Next, we need stability in the platform. As I have been shooting Mags since the mid-90's, most old schoolers will remember those T-stocks that were designed to screw into ASA adapters. These work great in the stock AGD back bottle adapter, allowing for a solid mount and comfortable shooting position. A foregrip is open for debate as to the trade-off in weight versus stability.

    This brings me to my final concept (which although hinted at by previous posts here I don't feel was fully realized): separation of the mechanism for firing from the mechanism that fires. With the advent of electronically controlled markers, we can effectively separate the order to fire the marker from the mechanics of sending a paintball downrange.

    I've envisioned a system that has remote air and remote paint storage(similar to what's described above), but has the activation unit (trigger) connected to the firing mechanism/barrel/breech (as it pertains to the actual action) electronically (as well as the warp(s) and hopper).

    Battery storage would be off gun/warp(s)/hopper on perhaps a belt or butt pack, and in the place of the battery back (envision an EMag) could sit the modified on-gun warp. The marker itself could be designed to have the breech feed from the bottom (think an inverted centerfeed mag body with no neck and receiving paint from the on-gun warp system directly below), effectively lowering the marker profile and simplifying design (ie no external warp hose). This would allow for the development of a marker that is configurable in shape for all types of paintball.

    Conventional woods ball (my favorite) would use a stocked, submachine gun type configuration. Reshaping the marker for the ergonomics of speedball would allow for compactness and excellent ergonomics to gain advantage in point shoot and high rate of fire situations. Thus, changing where the trigger resides in relation to the stock, barrel and breech is as simple as swapping different rails and stocks.

    Finally, you can address some of the inherent issues with the remote, paint and electronic lines by designed clothing specifically (and ergonomically) for these tasks.

    Anyone?
    Last edited by homis; 01-29-2004 at 09:22 AM.

  25. #25
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    Helena, MT
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    Only problem with the afore mentioned setup is: How would you feed the paint to the warp initially? You would need somesort of forcefeed system, (Maybe a halo or additional warp?). Unless you had the hopper and warp in the "backpack" and ran a "paint-hose" with the air-hose up to the gun.
    I like the idea of running it through the bottom though, maybe you could have the paint-hose come over the shoulder down to the elbow and then "hang" for the remaining distance to the bottom of the gun.
    H/L MiniMag
    Level 10
    2002 14" All American
    Palmer Male Stabilizer
    3A 71/4.5k Nitro

  26. #26
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    playing small

    I read most of the thread and feel that the main feel for it may have been lost after the "playing small" portion.
    The main reason for playing small is to get your body closer to the bunker...speedball is a game of angles and the further back off of your bunker you are the more likely you are to be eliminated......thats why long barrels and no drop forwards are a pain in the butt while playing speed ball, its just not an ideal situation to have the luxury of a long marker.....
    What I do find interesting though is the lack of drop forwards and short barrels by the majority of "pro" teams...I noticed this while watching PUSH and you can see it in any magazine, at most they have a 45/4500 or 68/4500 on a very small rail or even the ocassional duck bill.
    this might be attributed to the length of the fields these events are played on, alot of the fields that the majority of players are on would probably be swamped by the fields at World Cup.
    Goat
    Originally posted by U.S. District Judge Garr M. King, Re: Smart Parts' patent on electronic paintball markers
    "...I question the contributions of some of the named inventors, specifically Billy Gardner and Adam Gardner..."
    "...the evidence strongly suggests that neither Billy nor Adam could have invented what is claimed."
    "As with the lack of any documentation of the Gardnrs' work, Billy and Adam Gardner's testimony regarding thier own contributions does not suggest the work of inventors."

  27. #27
    Magluvr,

    The paint would be stored in a container (either conventional loader or something else), on the body, feeding the on-body Warp.

  28. #28
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    Homis,

    I get what you are trying to do, I was just commenting that unless there is enough pressure on the paint stack leading from the loader to the "on gun warp" then no paintballs will even reach the warp to be fed into the gun. Essentially, a convential loader wouldn't have enough force to make the paintballs reach the warp, thats why I suggested maybe putting the warp in the backpack. The gun would be even smaller then. Just the gun with two hoses (one for paint, one for air) and one small electrical wire to intellifeed the warp in the pack.

    I hope that makes sense now, I'm a confusing writer.

  29. #29
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    i was reading this and it is informative but i think we was talking about this issue in another post.

    http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=189708

    i used to play speedball but i play mostly woodsball now i have a qbow. and the rifle thing is all good in all until you gert into some bunkers or simulated cover the speedball has the advatage between the stock on my shoulder and the mask on my face. maybe if we didn't have to wear mask the idea of holding a firearm would be perfect. since you can not press your face against your firearm then you may as well be inaccurate take real firearm and put on you paint ball mask and fire. man your aim will be off you need to get behind the marker to fire it accurately. that is why air on the gun has been a good option or a t stock the only problem with the t stock is that with my q loader i don't switch hands to fire to the gun i twist it. you just have to learn to shot in akward postion the tradtional rifle stance movement would expose you longer or create to big of a profile smaller tighter profile is the way to go.
    BACK IN THE GAME.


  30. #30
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    holy thread ressurection

    Simliar topics albeit, but this is a much much older discussion. Look a the first post in each thread. We preceeded you by many moons lone wolf

    Quote Originally Posted by LONEWOLFOO1
    i was reading this and it is informative but i think we was talking about this issue in another post.

    http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=189708

    i used to play speedball but i play mostly woodsball now i have a qbow. and the rifle thing is all good in all until you gert into some bunkers or simulated cover the speedball has the advatage between the stock on my shoulder and the mask on my face. maybe if we didn't have to wear mask the idea of holding a firearm would be perfect. since you can not press your face against your firearm then you may as well be inaccurate take real firearm and put on you paint ball mask and fire. man your aim will be off you need to get behind the marker to fire it accurately. that is why air on the gun has been a good option or a t stock the only problem with the t stock is that with my q loader i don't switch hands to fire to the gun i twist it. you just have to learn to shot in akward postion the tradtional rifle stance movement would expose you longer or create to big of a profile smaller tighter profile is the way to go.

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