Closed Bolt Electro-pneumatic Mag

[ottomobile]

Ok, so I was bored at work the other day and was brainstorming what ifs. Not that the mag isn't great the way it is and simple is always better, but... What would a closed bolt, electro-pneumatic mag look like? Maybe something like this.

Here's the idea:
Ya pull the trigger. The hall effect trips activating the forward solenoid. This closes the breach. A fraction of a second later the second solenoid is tripped firing the gun. Both solenoids reverse closing the gas source and opening the breach.

Here's what we need.

1. A new bolt.
The new bolt would be sheathed in a sealed cylinder. A solenoid would push air either in
front of the bolt or behind it. Moving it back and forth. Basically making the bolt the ram.

2. A new on/off.
Trash the old on off and replace it with a collar to seal off the old air passage. Connect it
instead to a solenoid or switch. A new port would be drilled to the dump chamber for the
output of the solenoid. Throw the switch. Dump the air.

3. Gas through the rail.
Not essential to the design, but I was always partial to the original
RT. Its my way of paying hommage. Now most of the rail is milled out to make room for
the electronics so air would pass from the front to the rear via either a new integrated rail
and body, or an internal hardline.

4 Trigger.
Should be easy. Use the same electronics as on the emag.

5. Board. Hmm. Well I'll save that for the design phase...


Keep in mind, this is just in the "what if" dream phase. Thought I'd throw it out there and see what y'all think before I spend some real time looking at. Idea, comments, and cat-calls are welcome.




BTW, Acks to whoever drew the above picture. Hope you don't mind my butchering in Paint for the cause.

[Jotsy]

if yer redesigning the bolt, you could just have it so that when the bolt moves forward, it opens a seal and releases the gas down the barrel. this way, you only need one solenoid.

altho, it would make it an open bolt again.... and i'm not entirely sure, but it may also turn it into a shocker with a built in reg (i think thats how shockers work anyways)

also, it may be worth noting that i'm not sure if the solenoids would be able to handle 850psi unless this mod makes it possible to turn the input down.

[ottomobile]

if yer redesigning the bolt, you could just have it so that when the bolt moves forward, it opens a seal and releases the gas down the barrel. this way, you only need one solenoid.

altho, it would make it an open bolt again.... and i'm not entirely sure, but it may also turn it into a shocker with a built in reg (i think thats how shockers work anyways)

also, it may be worth noting that i'm not sure if the solenoids would be able to handle 850psi unless this mod makes it possible to turn the input down.

Yeah, don't want to create a Shocker!

They don't handle 850 psi. Thats the raw presure going into the built-in regulator. The pressure coming out of the internal regulator is somewhere around 250 psi.
If there is such a thing, I could use a solenoid that takes one input and splits it into two separate outputs.
Thanks for the input!

[ThePixelGuru]

Interesting idea, but why? What advantage would this give? What problems with the original design does it solve? What new ground does it cross?

New designs are all well and good, but if it's a new design for the sake of being new it probably won't get far. Just some stuff to think about.

[ottomobile]

Interesting idea, but why? What advantage would this give? What problems with the original design does it solve? What new ground does it cross?

New designs are all well and good, but if it's a new design for the sake of being new it probably won't get far. Just some stuff to think about.

Well, there really aren't any 'problems' with the original valve. Its functions exactly the way it was designed every time. It can do everything electronic guns can with less than 1/2 the parts and 1/2 the cost. There are no REAL advanatges between different gun once you cross the $300 threshold. They all do exactly the same thing a hundred different ways. Each with their own trade-offs. With the tradeoffs being within such a narrow range that the differences effectively don't matter. Its basically up to personal preference at that point.

The point of this design was to be creative with the existing valve. To explore different possibilities in the firing mechanism. This design would actually be less efficient than the current one as air must be divereted to move the bolt back and forth. The basic spring currently used is MUCH more consistent and reliable.

If I were to redesign the AUTOMAG from the ground up here's what I would do:

Unibody design.
The rail, body and barrel would be integrated into a single unit. Similar to what Palmer does with the Typhoon. Integrated parts handle vibration from the firing cycle better. No annoying screws to shake loose. An integrated barrel is perfectly aligned every time. Better than a freak whose multiple seams alter the airflow and loose efficiency.

Internal air.
The external air hose on the valve while technically smart, is frankly ugly. Its one of those things that make the mag a red-headed step child. Bring back the RT philosophy and move the air back into the body. Only this time bring it all the way forward to the ASA.

Keep the valve.
Fact is, there is no better engineered firing mechanism out there than the X-valve. There are only two moving parts (on/off and the bolt). It almost never fails and is extremely durable. Plus its still the only marker in the world to have an integrated regulator.

Stay mechanical.
Another fact. The cost of the development of electronics is high. The performance gain isn't significant either. Blazers, Slider Autocockers and RT Mags can all exceed 15 rounds a sec easily and have been known to reach 24+. Every bit as fast as any electro out there. I would however go to a pneumatic firing system. Its the flavor of the day to have light, fast triggers. A pneumatic trigger would deliver that, but keep the superior reliability of a mechanical.

Well, anyway. Thats my idea. Thanks for the comments. Keep em coming!

[afortuna]

Why not just redesign the frame to hold the pneumatic parts? That seems to be one of the biggest problems or hurdles holding people back is all the work that needs to be done to the trigger frame. So just design one. You don't have to design one that includes all of the parts, but you could design and then manufacture the frame so that it would properly hold all of the parts. You might even consider machining (if that is the correct word) the more difficult parts of the conversion. This would allow you to keep the greatness of the X-valve and bodies from the Automags, yet give you the trigger pull and new gun feel you are looking for.

Well, there really aren't any 'problems' with the original valve. Its functions exactly the way it was designed every time. It can do everything electronic guns can with less than 1/2 the parts and 1/2 the cost. There are no REAL advanatges between different gun once you cross the $300 threshold. They all do exactly the same thing a hundred different ways. Each with their own trade-offs. With the tradeoffs being within such a narrow range that the differences effectively don't matter. Its basically up to personal preference at that point.

The point of this design was to be creative with the existing valve. To explore different possibilities in the firing mechanism. This design would actually be less efficient than the current one as air must be divereted to move the bolt back and forth. The basic spring currently used is MUCH more consistent and reliable.

If I were to redesign the AUTOMAG from the ground up here's what I would do:

Unibody design.
The rail, body and barrel would be integrated into a single unit. Similar to what Palmer does with the Typhoon. Integrated parts handle vibration from the firing cycle better. No annoying screws to shake loose. An integrated barrel is perfectly aligned every time. Better than a freak whose multiple seams alter the airflow and loose efficiency.

Internal air.
The external air hose on the valve while technically smart, is frankly ugly. Its one of those things that make the mag a red-headed step child. Bring back the RT philosophy and move the air back into the body. Only this time bring it all the way forward to the ASA.

Keep the valve.
Fact is, there is no better engineered firing mechanism out there than the X-valve. There are only two moving parts (on/off and the bolt). It almost never fails and is extremely durable. Plus its still the only marker in the world to have an integrated regulator.

Stay mechanical.
Another fact. The cost of the development of electronics is high. The performance gain isn't significant either. Blazers, Slider Autocockers and RT Mags can all exceed 15 rounds a sec easily and have been known to reach 24+. Every bit as fast as any electro out there. I would however go to a pneumatic firing system. Its the flavor of the day to have light, fast triggers. A pneumatic trigger would deliver that, but keep the superior reliability of a mechanical.

Well, anyway. Thats my idea. Thanks for the comments. Keep em coming!

[FinchMan]

what i think we should try to design is a grip frame that integrates the rail, air hose, asa, and sear. The ion trigger frame looks like the right concept, but it wouldn't really fit on a mag well.


with integrated air, adding pneumag parts would be easy. by making the frame, rail, and asa one piece, it would probably be really lightweight also.

i think you'd probably want to keep the air intake for the valve on the side, just so you can be backwards compatible with the x-valve and all the bodies.

[goneloco]

You do know that any advantage a closed-bolt design has over open-bolt is gone once you pass 2-3 bps. Any time you shoot at a high rate of fire the ball isn't coming to rest in the chamber of a closed bolt gun, so at 15bps a cocker has no advantage, (if there is one), to any open bolt. Although it would be very cool to have a closed-bolt mag. Still a cool idea.