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Thread: All LVL 10 Info Here

  1. #1
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  2. #2
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    All LVL 10 Info Here

    I am condensing all the LVL10 info to one thread to clean up the stickies.

    AGD

  3. #3
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    AO,

    Here is a simplistic animation of how the Level 10 mod works. I have eliminated the mainspring for simplicity. Study this GIF and then look at the diagrams below. It's late so I will answer more questions tommorow.

    AGD
    Attached Images Attached Images

  4. #4
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    In these images you see the slow speed, low bolt pressure phase of the stroke. It is very slow about 4-6 FPS. This slow speed and low pressure makes sure it pinches and doesn't chop the balls. There is a additional advantage that the slow speed does not crack or bobble the ball stack waiting to go in.




  5. #5
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    After we get past the ball stack we can then go full power on the throttle to load, fire and retract the bolt. THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT to maintain the firing rate of the gun. If the bolt continued to travel at the same speed it would severly limit the firing rate. The animation does not properly show the speed increase.


  6. #6
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    Magsters,

    Here is a cutaway showing how we lightened the new Superbolt. Note that the wall is much thinner now but still has great strength because it's stainless. To see how much we cut away look at the rear end where it gets thicker back to original size. We also added in all the tricks with the radiused edges etc.

    This all stainless, never wear out version only weighs 8% more than the original SB. It weighs in at 1.16 oz and is in contention for the lightest reciprocating bolt in a paintball gun. That also means no kick!!

    AGD
    Attached Images Attached Images

  7. #7
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    It's late and I might have messed something up here. Work with me on this. AGD






    How to Install and Setup your LVL 10 Kit

    Ver 1.0

    Remove parts
    First remove your valve system, unscrew the power tube tip with a coin and take out all the parts from inside the power tube. Put them together with the bolt in a bag and save them. If you ever have problems you can switch back.

    Install backing washer
    While referring to the LVL 10 parts diagram, first place the backing washer (1) into the bottom of the power tube. Make sure itís sitting flat on the bottom. Its made from delrin and should go in a little tight and stay there. This washer prevents the new smaller o-ring from getting pushed into the air chamber.

    O-ring inside carrier
    Pickup one of the brass o-ring carriers (4) and push a power tube o-ring (2) into the end that does not have a tapered hole. It should not go in one side and either slide in or press into the correct side. There are 5 carriers supplied with your kit, each one is a little bigger than the next. They each have small grooves on the outside to help you tell them apart. The more grooves the larger the carrier.

    Tune the carrier to the bolt and o-ring
    Each batch of o-rings is a little different than the last. In order to compensate for this we need to find the proper size carrier. The idea is to get a good seal with as little friction as possible. Take the carrier with the o-ring installed and push it o-ring first onto the pin sticking out the back of the bolt. If it pushes on too hard then go to a larger carrier, if it slides freely on the pin then go one smaller. The proper fit should be just snug.

    Install the o-ring carrier
    Lightly lubricate the black o-ring (3) on the outside of the carrier. Push the carrier, o-ring first, into the power tube. Use the blunt end of a plastic pen to fully seat the carrier into the bottom of the power tube. When looking down into the power tube you should NOT see the white power tube o-ring (2).

    Install the power tube tip
    Next install the new power tube tip (7) it should already have the power tube tip o-ring installed from the factory (6). These new tips have wrench flats to tighten the tips. DO NOT OVERTIGHTEN!! Notice that we did NOT put in the shims (5) at this time.

    Test the o-ring carrier
    Now slide on your new Superbolt II with your original main spring (not one of the new ones) then reassemble the valve into the marker. Gas the marker up as see if it leaks. If it does leak use your finger or a squeegee to push the front face of the bolt around while its leaking. If the leak changes tone then itís most likely the wrong o-ring carrier (4) and you have to go to the next one tighter. If it doesnít leak you have the right carrier and can proceed to the next step.

    Shim adjustments
    Put a squeegee right in front of the bolt and pull the trigger. With very little clearance between the bolt and squeegee you will notice that the bolt comes forward and just stops on the squeegee. Then nothing else happens. Pulling the trigger does nothing to reset the bolt. In order to get the bolt to reset when it pinches a ball, we have to let the air out of the air chamber. The shims (5) control where in the forward stroke the air chamber starts venting. Its works a lot like the spacers in the original Mags. We left them out before so you could tell the difference between a carrier leak and a shim leak.

    Remove the power tube tip (7) and drop in two shims (5). Make SURE they are sitting flat in the bottom of the power tube before you screw the power tube tip on otherwise you will bend them up. Bent shims are useless and you will have to buy more. Reassemble the valve system as before using the original main spring and new Superbolt. Now when you air up the marker it should not leak but when you do the squeegee test you will notice that the air starts venting when the Superbolt moves forward. If you keep adding shims eventually the bolt will just leak all the time. For most people two shims work just fine. If you find that when you pinch a ball the marker locks up and does not reset then add another shim.

    Main spring tuning
    You are almost finished now. You have probably noticed that when you used the original main spring the bolt came forward with less force than usual but still had enough to chop a ball. The pin in the middle of the bolt is called the Power Piston, it acts like a cork to seal the air chamber. Just like a cork, itís being pushed out by the air pressure but the sear holds it in. When you fire the marker, the bolt is getting pushed out by the air chamber pressure but the mainspring is pushing BACK against the bolt at the same time. The level 10 modification reduces the size of the ďcorkĒ so the main spring has an easier time holding it back. If you put a big enough main spring on the bolt and it will not fire at all!!

    The last thing to do is find the right main spring that pushes back hard enough on the bolt but not so hard that the marker does not fire. The right main spring will depend on many things such as what velocity you are shooting, what barrel you are using, the size of your paint etc. Start with the longest mainspring (9) from the LVL10 kit, assemble the valve with it and gas the marker up. Try firing, if it doesnít fire, turn up the velocity until it does. Turning up the velocity is normal for Level 10 tuning it does not mean anything is wrong. If the marker starts venting out the back or the velocity is too high when it does start firing then the main spring is too long.

    Switch to the next shorter main spring. There are three mainsprings supplied in your kit. For the AO beta testers we have cut one coil off the longest main spring to make a ďmiddleĒ spring. This spring looks funny on one end like itís missing a coil (cause it is) put that end on the bolt first so the good end is sticking out. In our experience either the longest or the middle main springs make the Level 10 config work on all the markers we have tested. If you need to shoot 250 fps for indoor you need to go back to the original main spring.

    Fine tuning
    For most people the setup outlined above will make every paintball day a great experience. For those looking to get maximum anti chop with fragile tourney paint we offer the following suggestions. The o-ring friction can be used to additionally slow the bolt down. By going to the next smaller carrier you add an additional layer of protection at the expense of risking bolt stick. You must keep your marker oiled daily to keep it working reliably. The long mainspring can be trimmed to further fine tune the performance. The best performance comes when the marker just starts firing at 270 fps and works reliably at 290 fps.

    The penalty for over tuning is the fact that the marker may occasionally refuse to fire. This is because the main spring combined with the power tub o-ring has too much sticktion to let the bolt go forward. Try at your own risk.

    Thatís it! Your new Level 10 marker is ready to go!!

  8. #8
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    Fast Start for LVL 10

    There has been a lot of discussion about how much time and tinkering it takes to get this mod tuned in. I think there is another side I should present that will allow almost anyone to get up and go with reasonable, usable results. From doing a bunch of converstions we are finding that you should have a good chance of getting it running if you do the following steps exactly. If it still doesnít work come to the forum and see whatís going on and post your problem.

    1. Take the guts out of your power tube and put them in a bag along with your old bolt.

    2. Install the backing washer (1)

    3. find the carrier (4) that has two grooves cut in it and install a power tube o-ring (2) and lightly lubricate the power tube oring and the black carrier o-ring (3)

    4. Using the end of a pen cap push the carrier, o-ring first, into the power tube.

    5. Drop in TWO shims (5) and make sure they are sitting flat.

    6. Holding the valve upright, screw in the power tube tip (7) and tighten.

    7. Find the middle length bolt spring (9). This one can be identified because it has one coil cut off the end. Put the end with the coil cut off on the bolt first so the end without the coil cut off is hanging off the end of the bolt.

    8. install the bolt on the valve, assemble into the marker and gas up.

    9. The marker may or may not be leaking down the barrel. If the marker does not shoot, turn up the velocity until it does so consistently every time you pull the trigger. Fire the marker a few hundred times to wear in the o-ring while you let it leak.

    10. Now that you have the o-ring settled in, switch to the next size smaller carrier until the marker stops leaking down the barrel.

    11. Set your velocity to 280-300 and you should be good enough to use the marker as is.

    This configuration should get you working and out on the field. The next step in fine tuning is to switch to the longest spring and see if you can get the marker firing reliably in the 280-290 fps range with that spring.

    AGD


  9. #9
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    I fixed the color of the backup washer at your request.

    AGD

  10. #10
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    As you know or should know by now there is a higher retained marker pressure when this mod is installed. So degassing is a issue you need to consider. As if you didn't already. But these new pressures can be a magnitude of 2 to 3 times higher. As much as 400 psi still left when the marker quits firing. There is nothing wrong with this. Its a side effect of the Level 10 mod and is easy to live with. You screw on tank guys will not have to worry about this. But the ones with fixed lines will want to look into a degas method.


    I am gonna insert Toms comments on the higher retained pressure here so I can unstick the thread on this.

    Here is the link to the original thread itself:

    http://www.automags.org/forums/showt...threadid=41874


    Here are Toms comments on that:

    LVL 10 Users,

    I have read all the posts for residual pressure and the results make sense.

    The bolt acts like a cork holding back pressure in a bottle. When you fire the marker the air pressure pushes out the "cork" BUT the mainspring is now holding the cork in with more force than before. This results in more residual pressure in the system.

    In other words the fact that the LVL10 mod causes your gun to stop shooting abruptly at the end of the tank and the gun holds more residual pressure is the result of the same thing. This is all caused by the stronger mainspring.

    My personal opinion is that removing a macro line from a fitting is a poor choice to degass a gun. I would recomend everyone use some type of degassing fitting to loose all the pressure before dissasembly. Most people with screw in tanks will not have a problem. The others will just have to get a degassing fitting because this effect is a normal part of the LVL 10 operation.

    We didn't see it here because we use degassers on our lines. Overall I see this as the only hiccup so far in the LVL 10 testing.

    I should warn everyone that the Retro Valve and RT Valve will hold residual pressure even with the air source removed. You should NEVER remove your valve and mainbody together and then pull out the valve. This can cause the on/off assembly to shoot out at high speed. By removing the valve while the mainbody is still attached to the rail the system will degass properly. This is the best reason to NOT ADJUST YOUR TRIGGER ROD!!

    Besides this I don't have any other solutions to the residual pressure problem. You just can't shoot it down to nothing with this new setup.

    AGD

  11. #11
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    On the issue of shims being bent and destroyed upon improper install, Eric AGD started a thread with some tips on how to prevent that...

    Shim Damage Prevention technics thread:

    http://www.automags.org/forums/showt...threadid=42181

    And for you sticker lovers...

    Level 10 sticker post thread here:

    http://www.automags.org/forums/showt...threadid=40040

    compilation of the carriers that seem to work most going on...

    Level 10 "Carriers that worked" thread here:

    http://www.automags.org/forums/showt...threadid=42007

    Some interesting further development stuff here started by Rudy. This early beta test reactions and stuff. Lets continue that here.

    Lvl 10 suggestions/discussions thread here:

    http://www.automags.org/forums/showt...threadid=42317

    Your Superbolt II seems to wide and is getting stuck? See what Tom says about that and discuss it here:

    My Super Bolt II is not fitting right threads:

    http://www.automags.org/forums/showt...threadid=42426

    Miscue's "how to install Lvl 10" Video:

    http://www.automags.org/forums/showt...threadid=44178
    Last edited by cphilip; 07-24-2002 at 07:39 AM.

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