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Thread: Maximum Cycle rate. Or.... nerobro using data without comfirming it himself

  1. #1
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    Maximum Cycle rate. Or.... nerobro using data without comfirming it himself

    ok, first is a quote from butterfingersAO:
    Nero,

    I have a correction...

    A spyder's cyclic rate is not 40 CPS.

    When a spyder is allowed to cycle without the sear the bolt will only recock partially and IMHO should not be counted as a full cycle.

    The automag RT has a yet unknown max cyclic capability there has not yet been an airsystem capable of keeping up with the ROF of an RT valve.

    The claimed Rate of fire that AGD produces is ROF without shootdown, not to be confused with max cyclic rate. This is the ROF that the RT valve is able to produce without loosing ANY velocity. The valve will continue to cycle past this number with slight shootdown.

    We at modified paintball have acheived 30 CPS with an open scuba the valve produced full cycles locking the sear and delivering a near full blast of air upon sound analysis with a microphone mounted near the breach.

    Given a cycle time of 20ms verified electronically the RT valve has a maximum theorectical cyclic rate of 50 cps where the sear actually locks the bolt and releases it. If you want to count half cycles this number could very well be into the hundreds.
    As I said on AO, the number I got was froma coupple years back.

    When the sear is removed from a spyder, the gun will completely cycle so long as there is enough pressure to cycle the gun. If it didn't it wouldn't be able to recock that first time either. It is a full cycle and will be counted as such ;-) (now the question is, how do you supply enough gas for that... IIRC the guy who tested it hooked the gun up to a 20# co2 tank. But at this point we're talking 3-4 year old data. I'm happy to run another test though... in fact you should have data sometime next week.) Actually a few people on AO were offering up wav files. I'll try to track one down and count the spikes. I'll say it's at least 30 ;-) ( and that can be changed to taste by lightening the hammer and bolt, and by putting in heavier springs)

    With that setup, the spyder would be being fed 800psi, essentially unrestricted. Being recharged through a hose tha'ts 1/8npt the whole way. In theroy, recharging faster than an RT becuase it's recharging WHILE the gun is fireing and cycling. Not after the fact.

    The Max Cyclic rate of the RT is known. On the dyno it can completely recharge 26 times a seccond. Given the recharge cuvre (curve.. heh.. it's a straight line) once you get past 26bps the RT drops off. FAST. Hmm... now that seems funny. You need to give the gun some time to cycle, then time to recharge given the design... Grrrr... Maybe it's time to crosspost this with AO. I'll take it to deep blue tonight.

    Ok
    so that's what I had to say on the subject there. 315159 and I will get the REAL number later this week. But the questions are... What can an e-mag REALLY do. Given the numbers from the Tech class at 20bps the emag is holding down the sear for 80% of a seccond... leaving only 20% of the time for recharge of the valve.

    There's something funny going on here.........

    Again, I'll have the maximum cycle rate for a stock fatty strikered spyder type gun soon.
    To be an AGD supporter, one cannot be an AGD bigot. -Nero

    Truth is a complex thing. One must govern by simplicity. -M. Mercier, special counsel to his Majesty for domestic matters. The Brotherhood of the Wolf

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  2. #2
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    Well, the bolt cycle time on an RT is a steady 20ms, according to Tom, giving a max theoretical cyclic rate of 50hz. (1/0.02=50) Of course that's most likely changed with the Level 10 upgrade, most likely increasing the cycle time by a couple of ms.
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  3. #3
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    Well, we have an answer. it takes 20ms to cycle a spyder. From sear release to sear catch.

  4. #4
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    mmm, only if there would be some way to redesign the setup of the mag so it can start recharging while it is cycling.

    /me starts thinking

    take a mag, ditch the sear, ditch the dump chamber and replace it with a small pathway leading to a cup seal. wack the cup seal with a ram w/hamer or a spyder style recocking system.
    As society and the problems that face it become more and more complex and machines become more and more intelligent, people will let machines make more of their decisions for them, simply because machine-made decisions will bring better results than man-made ones. Eventually a stage may be reached at which the decisions necessary to keep the system running will be so complex that human beings will be incapable of making them intelligently. At that stage the machines will be in effective control. People won't be able to just turn the machines off, because they will be so dependent on them that turning them off would amount to suicide

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  5. #5
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    Alright, I'll give away one of my better ideas.

    I'm going to absolutely hate myself if AGD comes out with a marker based on this. Maybe someone would be grateful enough to give me credit?

    A free marker based on the idea would be good enough...

    Ditch the sear and On/Off design. Same body/barrel/bolt/power tube but with a three-way valve connecting the powertube, dump chamber, and regulator.

    Pulling the trigger would dump the dump chamber to the bolt.
    Releasing the trigger would connect the regulator to the dump chamber. With no pressure behind the bolt, the sear is not required.

    Use a solenoid valve and the optimum open time to dump the chamber can be found and maximum time can be given to recharge.

    Want to really fast? Two dump chambers. During rapid fire, one is emptying and propelling the bolt forward and the other immediately starts charging.

    Cycle time is then limited by bolt acceleration.

  6. #6
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    i do like the idea of having stuff in paralell to charge the firing system.

    i don't think that there would be enough flow to do what you are talking about with the valve. this would require 2, 2 way valves to do what you are describing.

    besides a spool valve, cup seal, automag style bolt..... maby even a high voltage field holding back ionised air, all of the paintball guns i can think of have used the first 3.

  7. #7
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    Alright, we've been told that it takes 20ms for the automag bolt to cycle. This would mean that with an instantaneous recharge and release at the back of the cycle, the max limit of the blowforward bolt design would be 50 Cycles Per Second (CPS). But we know from AGD testing that the maximum cycle rate without shootdown is 26 CPS.

    26 CPS means 38.5 ms per cycle.
    If it takes 20 ms to cycle the bolt, that means it takes 18.5 ms to charge the dump chamber. The chamber currently only charges after the bolt cycles and is retained by the sear.

    Let's say that it takes 10 ms for the bolt to travel forward and 10 ms to travel back. However, this is probably false as the forces on the bolt are different in each direction. But, lacking other data and for the sake of theorising:

    If there was no sear, the ideal would be the dunp chamber could begin charging immediately after the bolt has reached full forward and the gas pressure has dropped to zero. According to AGD's graphs it would seem it takes 5 ms for the ball to leave the barrel. That would mean that the chamber could be sealed 15 ms (bolt forward travel+5 ms) after trigger pull.

    This would mean that 5 ms would be gained for the chamber to charge. The resulting cycle time would be:

    38.5-5=33.5 ms

    Which would give a 29.88 CPS. (By the way, shows there's no way the Emagnum with the current AGD valve design at 30 CPS cannot be firing without shootdown)

    Seems that it would be a lot of work to gain 3 CPS. Especially since there's little need for that kind of firing rate anyways and no feed system can keep up.

    As level 10 probably chambers the bolt as fast as is possible, for higher rates of fire than 30 cps you'd have to concentrate on the Regulator/Air Supply and Dump Chamber recharge times.

    To feed reliably at all speeds, or at all during rapid fire, the other place development would be required is in the bolt return speed. The faster the bolt can return to open, the longer it can stay open for the next ball to inserted in the breech.

    PS: Tom Kaye, do you need someone for AGD-Canada?

  8. #8
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    it takes 20 ms for this fatty striker dragun black to cycle, and it can charge while dooing so

  9. #9
    Theres alot of "loose" information in that thread.

    26 CPS is a conservative number the recharge rates differ based on input pressure. You most likely can make the RT shoot up all the way up to 40 cps if you dump 3000 psi into it.

    So Trust me... There is a way...

    The stroke time for the automag is the total time from sear release to sear lock. That 20 ms includes the dwell time.

    The chamber is only truely sealed at the end of the stroke. When it releases its air within 1-2 ms.

    Level 10 works in a similar prinicple as L7. L10 is actually a little bit slower.

    To feed relaibly you also need to factor forward bolt speeds. At 20 bps if you have a 45 ms forward stroke and a 5 ms backward stroke the ball will be blocked for the same amount of time as if it were vice versa.


    Originally posted by SlartyBartFast
    Alright, we've been told that it takes 20ms for the automag bolt to cycle. This would mean that with an instantaneous recharge and release at the back of the cycle, the max limit of the blowforward bolt design would be 50 Cycles Per Second (CPS). But we know from AGD testing that the maximum cycle rate without shootdown is 26 CPS.

    26 CPS means 38.5 ms per cycle.
    If it takes 20 ms to cycle the bolt, that means it takes 18.5 ms to charge the dump chamber. The chamber currently only charges after the bolt cycles and is retained by the sear.

    Let's say that it takes 10 ms for the bolt to travel forward and 10 ms to travel back. However, this is probably false as the forces on the bolt are different in each direction. But, lacking other data and for the sake of theorising:

    If there was no sear, the ideal would be the dunp chamber could begin charging immediately after the bolt has reached full forward and the gas pressure has dropped to zero. According to AGD's graphs it would seem it takes 5 ms for the ball to leave the barrel. That would mean that the chamber could be sealed 15 ms (bolt forward travel+5 ms) after trigger pull.

    This would mean that 5 ms would be gained for the chamber to charge. The resulting cycle time would be:

    38.5-5=33.5 ms

    Which would give a 29.88 CPS. (By the way, shows there's no way the Emagnum with the current AGD valve design at 30 CPS cannot be firing without shootdown)

    Seems that it would be a lot of work to gain 3 CPS. Especially since there's little need for that kind of firing rate anyways and no feed system can keep up.

    As level 10 probably chambers the bolt as fast as is possible, for higher rates of fire than 30 cps you'd have to concentrate on the Regulator/Air Supply and Dump Chamber recharge times.

    To feed reliably at all speeds, or at all during rapid fire, the other place development would be required is in the bolt return speed. The faster the bolt can return to open, the longer it can stay open for the next ball to inserted in the breech.

    PS: Tom Kaye, do you need someone for AGD-Canada?
    Last edited by Butterfingers; 07-16-2002 at 02:21 AM.
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  10. #10
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    So if the stroke time of the automag is 20ms, sear release to sear lock... And for purposes of our discussion we have been ignoreing the time the bolt is moving as time that we can feed balls... Your commnet about forward bolt speed is irelevant.

    20ms DOES NOT include the dwell time. Dwell referring to the time the AIR chamber needs to recharge.

    and the level 10 takes aproxamately the same time to cycle as the normal mag. So I don't even know why that was brought up.

    On another point... you really can't recharge the AIR valve untill the sear has locked. Well you could put the first 200psi in there, but that may well slow down the bolts return.

    Also butterfingers is right, the automag bolt unseals very early in it's stroke. even the level 10 (with it's much longer bolt piston..)

  11. #11
    nero, were you reffering to my post or the post I replied to?

    In any case 20 ms does include the dwell time. The dwell time refers to the time it takes the valve to release its air at its forward stroke.

    The time it takes to fill the chamber is termed recharge time which is a seprate entity.

  12. #12
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    Originally posted by Butterfingers
    At 20 bps if you have a 45 ms forward stroke and a 5 ms backward stroke the ball will be blocked for the same amount of time as if it were vice versa.
    What do you mean by "the ball will be blocked"? Don't get your example either. Your bolt is spending 50ms travelling, meaning not time for recharge and no time for the ball to load.

    As far as the 18ms recharge rate being conservative, isn't that the point of AGD marketing and the Deep Blue forum? Keep the numbers supportable and provable.

    Also, I think you missed the point of my proposed development. If the bolt currently cycles in 20ms, the return stroke needs to be sped up. Speeding up the return stroke would accomplish two things, no matter the BPS firing rate:
    1-Bolt open longer to allow ball to feed
    2-Longer time for recharge

    If recharge could take place during the backwards travel then you've got the perfect design.

    Actually, I'm working on a design that uses a standard Mag bolt but which charges while the bolt is moving back and which has much more force on the bolt on the return stroke than currently.

    Now if I can get it to work....

  13. #13
    my point is the on/off is also closed during the forward stroke of the bolt. It is in the pathway of the ball from the feed tube during the forward stroke also so you have to take forward stroke time into consideration when calculating recharge and feed rates.

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