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Thread: level 10 discussion/suggestions

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  1. #1

    level 10 discussion/suggestions

    I think with level 10 being beta tested and AGD listening to the people we have a rare chance to attempt to make the most out of the automag design. So far I like level 10 but I believe that there is room for improvement. And I would like to continue using my mag as my main gun. I would really prefer if people not say we donít need that or its good enough now. After market parts and custom shops are pushing the other guns ahead. Good enough wont make anything the best. Lets make then gun the best it can be. Lets put the automag back on top, and lets put it there with a commanding lead. I donít know if anything I suggest will be tested it seems like AGD is ready to go with the current design. But I also think that it is much better to make any modifications now then later on, or waiting for after market mods. And I figure its better to say something and be wrong then not say anything and possibly miss a chance to improve the gun.

    The first question I have for people is have you noticed an increase in consistency? I was shooting level 10 with +/- 2 to 3 fps usually I am at +/- 4 to 5 fps. And I noticed some others giving very consistent chrono readings. I am wondering if AGD has noticed this or if it is just a coincidence. Or perhaps the vent hole in the superbolt 2 is actually compensating for pressure differences much in the same way a striker valve does as in the angel where the inadequate regs recharge is muffled by the physics of the valve. I am thinking perhaps at a higher pressure air escapes through the vent hole faster wasting a little extra air before the ball is fired. And then at lower pressure the air cannot escape as quickly so air loss is proportionally less then at higher pressure. End result is a sort of compensating exhaust. Which means less fluctuations in velocity.

    AGD: this is coincidence

    First question/ criticism the super bolt 2 seemed really rough like it was not finished well. It caused quite a bit of friction with the main springs. I donít know if this was to slow the bolt down or accidental or what. But if it was on purpose I think the springs will wear out fast and it will no longer slow the bolt much and it would be better if it had a better finish. So the tuning you do is more accurate to how it will be after the spring wears in the break in period.
    AGD: With such a thin wall it is not possible to make a mirror finish. The spring opens up when its in position so it does not rub like it does when you slide it on. Bolt springs do not wear out.

    Another question I have is why foamie bolt? I see it could reduce the weight but as far as being soft on the ball I think the foamie causes more problems with loosing them and wearing out then its worth. I also see that since there is a hole down the center of the front of the bolt that may have influenced the decision as well. But I personally would rather have a carefree hard nose bolt since level 10 can smack a ball with the steal edge with out harming it. And I noticed that several people have shot out the foamie already. Is there another reason?

    AGD: I just got an email from my guys telling me they found out why the foamies are coming off. It is corrected now. Run it without a foamie if it bothers you. The foamie is there to postition the ball properly and is more gentile on paint.

    I would also like to know if a spacer kit might allow level 10 users to have more flexibility. I am thinking a delrin ring that slides on the bolt to increase the spring tension. This would also help people keep it consistent as the spring wears down and the bolt starts moving faster. You coule compensate with the addition of a small shim or spacer. I am not sure how big they would have to be to work. I also am not sure if there would be room for them adding them to the compressed springs total compressed length may start to cause blowback or not allow the bolt to release the main burst of air correctly if the travel is stopped short. But depending on how much room is in there its worth thinking about.
    AGD: cant do this you will run out of bolt travel.

    Now my main area of interest is efficiency. I have always considered my mag to be a bit of a gas hog. When I play a day out where I cannot get fills I canít last nearly as long as people with angels and cockers. I also feel this can be an issue for back players. I donít want to have to haul a bigger tank around. And I donít want to cut it close in a game.
    AGD: We can't do anything with efficiency unless you want to go to high pressure, everyone wants low pressure so there you go. Get rid of the ported barrel and your efficiency will go up.


    I have no way of testing any of my ideas or knowing if they have been tried in the past. I have mentioned them before though, and have received little to no response. Perhaps they will not do anything or maybe even hurt efficiency. Or maybe they will not do much by themselves but adding several ideas and a little gain together will amount to something. I personally would welcome any increase in efficiency.

    First problem I see is the venturi design of the bolt I canít solve this fully but I think itís worth looking into and making up a few prototype bolts and getting some numbers. Changing the arms that hold the center shaft in place to block the air less is the basic idea. The problem of course is doing this and retaining strength and doing it without adding 50$ to the price of a bolt. Look at the picture to see some ideas and come up with some ideas too.

    AGD: venturi bolts do nothing.

    http://www.msu.edu/~slouppau/venturi.jpg

    The next idea / suggestion I have is something that should definitely be looked into and tested. I have noticed many guns which use a power tube or spool valve tend to be less efficient. automag, tippmann, matrix, novas, and shockers. and in several there is no o-ring on the power tube. And at least with the matrix a missing o-ring was added in the bolt kit and helped quite a bit. I think that putting an o-ring on the mag to stop air from escaping between the bolt and the power tube will help efficiency. I had thought of this some years ago and figured an easy modification to the brass power tube tip would work. But the superbolt 2 would probably cause that o-ring to not be as effective and wear out quickly. So it looks like the best place to put the o-ring is on the superbolt. Take a look at these pictures to see what I think will work.

    AGD: did this years ago and the orings get sheared off.

    http://www.msu.edu/~slouppau/sbeffic.jpg

    The o-ring would of course need to be quite low on friction (unless you wanted to slow the bolt down some if your springs and power tube o-rings were not getting the level 10 where you want it) but the nice thing is even if it became to loose or wore out, it would not stop the gun from functioning. So it would be a rather forgiving addition.

    If efficiency can be increased the operating pressure should drop, and we should see less kick, and less people coming close to venting since they will be able to use lighter springs with good results.
    Last edited by AGD; 07-09-2002 at 08:08 PM.

  2. #2
    Join Date
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    Very good thread... I also believe the o-ring at the rear of the bolt would be a nice addition. Good pictures. I don't think the bracket arm in the left of you picture would work as it would be too weak in the middle, I see no reason why the one on the right wouldn't work as its a more rigid design. Also if it were diamond shaped like a triangle up and down...it would be just as strong and maybe flow a little more gas. I know triangles are the most rigid geometric shape so that could add strength, lower weight a little from the pic on the right, And be functional in flowing gas.

    I agree with the springs.. but I believe once the springs start to break-in..you can go to the next smaller size spacer to pickup the slack from the bolt spring being weakend. (won't know til we all play more) I noticed my gun would only fire with the 1.5 carrier if I had the lightest (original) spring in it. If I went to the new spring (like old stock one) it wouldn't fire. The medium and longest spring was also a no-go.

    I would also like to know if anyone has noticed a hissing form the bolt if you hold the trigger after a shot? Is this unused air in the chamber..that didn't have time to leave the bolt? Anyone else notice this? I have a #2 spacer, 3 shims. If I remove 1 shim it doesn't do this..but the bolt also has a little more force. The gun doesn't leak when the triggers at rest. Give and take right? Its no big deal because you normally don't hold the trigger after a shot anyway. Its not the internals leaking and its very faint.. maybe 6 psi bleeding off. (Thread said discussion.. I'm discussin' )

    I don't really know who would need the carriers larger than 3 Unless the bolt stems and o-rings a manu'd way out of tolerance. I believe each half step is .005 difference. What if when us beta users narrow dow the wide scale of what spacers are actually needed to get 99.999% of guns going.(Since 9 or 10 came with the kit) have another 5 of them in tolerances of .002 running between the most commonly used spacers. That way.. if we use a 1.5 now...and want a little more resistance from the bolt o-ring we could drop in the the next titghter carrier by .002 as the one at .005 may not allow the marker to shoot. Put those two or three in there. Just a suggestions... I know .00x is rough to get exact lol but hey...it would allow for more tuning

    Nice thread..I subscribed to it as I think this will turn into a lvl10 forum in itself.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    May 2002
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    390
    well i dont have my lvl10 but heck i can still discuss by what i know. well it sounds like a few things could be fixed such as the problem with the sprins or orings on the bolt. i dont really thing either one is neccesary and wouldnt really mind if they never happened. besides im sure tom has thought about it, after all hes a genius when it comes to this stuff.

    about fraustys problems now.
    i think u have 1 to many shims in there. too many causes a continuous leak but not enough is supposed to casue bolt stick. most people run 2 shims anyways so id suggest goin down to 2.
    as for your gun not firing with the medium or long spring, thats becasue your velocity isnt high enough to create enough force to move the spring. each spring has a certain starting velocity where it starts to fire. that just means that your velocity isnt high enough when u put the bigger springs in. this is all going by what i read, hopefully its accurate and helps
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  4. #4
    was the oring sheared off right away? or after about how many shots?

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