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Thread: My idea (or half idea) for a closed bolt automag

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  1. #1
    InvisibleBill Guest

    My idea (or half idea) for a closed bolt automag

    Okay, I am fairly new too mags, and I am not to techy, but I had an idea for a closed bolt mag. My idea was that you could use an air powered ram (not sure what the tech term is) that is using air from the reg to close the bolt. When the marker is gassed up, the air that enters the air chamber would also push the ram forward, moving the bolt into the barrel. then, when the marker was fired, the air chamber and ram would be emptied of air, and the bolt spring would push the bolt back, feeding another ball into the barrel. Then, air fills the chamber and ram, pushing the bolt forward.
    I am not sure if this would work, so any opinion and advice would be accepted. I have looked at Punishers PneuMag, which is partly why my mind started thinking about this, though I thought that if the three way wasn't needed, it would be more stable performance and maintance wise. Thanks IB.

  2. #2
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    the problem lies in the fact that the mag empties the dump chamber as soon as the bolt is closed. to change that would be to change the base of the operation of the mag.
    "The Fine Print: Discontinue use if your eyeballs suddenly get way smaller."

  3. #3
    InvisibleBill Guest
    hmmm. I didn't think about that. I'll think some more. Thanks. IB.

  4. #4
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    There is no reason to convert any gun to closed bolt. Closed bolt offers ZERO advantages.

  5. #5
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    Originally posted by Miscue
    There is no reason to convert any gun to closed bolt. Closed bolt offers ZERO advantages.
    There's no reason to do a lot of the things in paintball. It's still an interesting tinker project.
    [*img]http://userpic.livejournal.com/11885469/469200[/img]
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  6. #6
    I disagree that closed bolt offers no advantages - A closed bolt system should provide a more stable firing platfrom, as you have less mass being flung around before the ball is actually fired - compare the moving mass of a Viking (bolt and hammer) vs. an Excalibur (just the hammer).

    Additionally, it would seem to me that a closed bolt system could theoretically be more consistent (in velocity) than an open bolt system. I say this because in an open bolt system, the ball is chambered and fired in the same process. It's possible that changes in ball orientation could affect how easily the ball is chambered, thus using different amounts of energy. This differing energy that gets robbed from the chambering portion of the sequence means a different amount of energy available for the firing portion of the sequence.

  7. #7
    InvisibleBill Guest
    Thanks for standing up for closed bolt guns. I agree, they are more stable. Since the bolt is closed when the gas is released, your velocity will be more consistant from shot to shot in cockers and the like, unlike say, an angel or bushmaster.
    Miscue:Think about how cockers are known for their accuracy. Wouldn't that be awesome if the mag had killer accuracy and was super easy to maintain?
    Anyway, if any one has anymore help or comments, I would like to hear them. Thanks IB.

  8. #8
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    oh come on, open bolt guns can be just as accurate as closed, and vise versa. to prove this, i took my mayhem (closed/dye excel) and put three shots on top of each other at about 30 yds. i then took a friends mag and put three shots on top of each other on the same board. did the same with an impulse, and a cocker. bols position has been proved time and time again to be irrelevent.

    now, saying that, converting a mag to closed bolt would be SWEET, just because it would take some hard work and thought.

  9. #9
    InvisibleBill Guest
    I agree, there is not much of difference in accuracy at 30 yds. But what about at 50 yds? Then that extra gas that doesn't go down the barrel might mean the difference between an elimination and a miss. But again, it is possible to use a "carpet bombing" (spray and pray) technique to circumvent the whole accuracy agruement, but it is fun to get those one shot eliminations. By the way sniper1rfa, do you like the impluse? My friend was looking into one...Thanks, IB.

  10. #10
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    actually, i hate them. sloppiest trigger ive ever pulled.

  11. #11
    I must agree with sniper1fa - note that I never stated that closed bolt guns are more accurate, as that's patently untrue - they should exhibit the very same accuracy as an open bolt gun. Assuming that the guns are clamped down, that is. It's reasonable to say that one gun might be more accurate than another in the hands of a certain player because that player may be able to exercise less control on how much a gun jumps around when shooting.

  12. #12
    I don't buy this idea that open-bolt marker "jostle" the paint more than closed-bolt and hense closed-bolts are more consistent.

    Any "jostle" only exists in the breech and once the ball is in the barrel it's irrelevent. And let's not forget that the ball is in the barrel before the air-charge sends it on it's way in either set-up. Essentially, ALL markers fire from a closed-bolt. The only difference in each operating system is how they wait to recieve the ball before firing.

    -Kweasi
    Destroy the Hype

  13. #13
    I have to go against the recoil argument as well. In paintball markers there isn't enough mass moving to make much of a difference. In addition, before the ball is a fired in an Autococker, the striker moves and hits the valve, therefore we still have moving mass before the ball is fired. In addition we have to remember that the mass of the moving parts is tiny compared to the overall mass of the entire setup, even more so if we include the tank and the full hopper in the total mass.

  14. #14
    There isn't enough moving mass to make a difference? Obviously you've never fired a VM-68

  15. #15
    Well that one I'll give you

  16. #16
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    The only advantage of a mag close bolt I could really think of is noise reduction. I have yet to see an open bolt marker that that's quiet (with the exception of electros).

    However most close bolts I've ever fired are surprisingly quiet (again, cept for maybe the AT85).

    That's my useless .00002 cents.
    ~The Wanderer~

  17. #17
    InvisibleBill Guest
    Hehehe...Mass? Go fire a m98 as fast as you can. The thing climbs. Now, having a gun climb isn't that bad, you just compensate for the rise. The main reason I would like a closed bolt mag is because it would be a bit more accurate. Now if any one tells me theres no difference between open and closed, go shoot a m98 or procarbine with out a hopper, then shoot an autococker. me and my friend did a little test, since so many people say that the 98 has massive amounts of air going in to the hopper. we stacked balls into the elbow of each gun (a m98 and a procarbine) and fired. Each time the balls jumped up a bit. We haven't done this with an autococker, since no-one that I know in Bend has an autococker, but I have heard that there is no "ball bounce", so if any one does try this, I would love to know the results. Ah, well, if any of you people would help me with my design delimma (did I spell that right? probably not), That would be real cool. Thanks, IB.

  18. #18
    Oh, Jesus. That's his proof.

    Have you ever thought that perhaps the reason why the Cocker doesn't jump as much is because it uses a ram to recock rather than an unregulated burst of air?And that the blowback burst is normally around 800 psi, compared to 100 psi? Cockers DO have blowback, violent blowback if they are mistimed.

  19. #19
    As for the claim that closed bolt marker as quieter- that may be a trend but it's certainly not a rule.

    A well tuned Matrix is possibly the questest marker on the feild, anywhere, ever. It's a very bold claim, and not one that I have the means to varify, so I have to ask that you "just trust me".

    Anyway, it's an open bolt.

    -Kweasi

  20. #20
    Well, that may be a byproduct of another overused term: low pressure. I don't think the gas would make quite the same bang at the end of a barrel as if it used higher pressure.

  21. #21
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    Originally posted by Gambit22
    Well, that may be a byproduct of another overused term: low pressure. I don't think the gas would make quite the same bang at the end of a barrel as if it used higher pressure.
    Doesn't matter, he still countered your statement.

    You do understand why you shouldn't be allowed to say "A = B" and if someone said "not if A is one and B is two" you said "well it shouldn't count then."

    This really is a horrible argument for both sides, especially considering so many exceptions apply to every "rule" of open bolt and closed bolt comparasins.

    It's all in the gun...

  22. #22
    Uh...which statement of mine exactly did he counter? I simply hypothesized on the reason why the Matrix may make less noise.

  23. #23
    Let's keep it Blue gentlemen....

    The point of by previous post is supported by what both of you say. That is, "quiet" is not something that can be attributed to bolt operation, there are other, WAY more important factors. Like valve dwell, and operating pressure.

    -Kweasi

  24. #24
    I don't think that bolt operation affects much of anything. In an Autococker a hammer still strikers the valve, and it still uses a Sheridan system to release gases through the bolt. Like I said previously, the only think that really separates it from a JABB is the method of recocking via a ram.

  25. #25
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    blazers and cocker's are closed bolt and that's why they shoot so straight and far

  26. #26
    Cockers and Blazers shoot straight and far - that I will give you. However, they shoot no straighter and no farther than any other gun, closed bolt or not. There are no closed bolt pixies that gently carry your ball through the atmosphere - the ball doesn't care what sort of gun it was launched from. Clamp down a cocker next to a mag and you'll see that there is no discernable difference in how the ball flies.

  27. #27
    Nuh-uh!

    My pro-shop owner, Jub-Jub, says that cockers can shoot all the way across the feild at 50fps, but mags only go straight for 20ft then suddenly drop no matter how fast you shoot. Unless you have a boomstick. And a really expensive tank.

    -Kweasi

  28. #28
    I think that was MuffinButt, I don't know a Jub-Jub.

  29. #29
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    i have a HUGE muffin butt.

  30. #30
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    i have a stock class phantom (which is closed bolt) with an all american barrel and an old spyder compact that i use as a backup for my RT, the spyder has an All American barrel the same length as the one on my phantom pump. my phantom shoots further and straighter than my spyder or my rt, i'm not saying it's way way better but it is noticeable.

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