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Thread: My idea (or half idea) for a closed bolt automag

  1. #31
    InvisibleBill Guest
    Howdy. My theory is that the closed bolt design puts that gas that would normally exit through the elbow behind the ball, giving it better velocity. Thanks for giving you opinions! IB.



    Geez, I didn't think this idea o' mine would spawn a some twenty odd replies...

  2. #32
    Chris, Bill,

    A ball will only go farther than another if:

    1) It is fired at A HIGHER VELOCITY (capitalized because this is the big one).

    2) It is fired from a higher elevation.

    3) It is fired at a steeper angle (though equal to or less than 45 degree to the horizontal).

    4) It is fired on a planet/plantoid will less gravitational force than the first.

    5) It is fired in an environment will less air resistance.

    6) The second paint is made in such a manner that it offers less air resistance.

    Bolt configuration has possitvely nothing to do with range. Repeat: Bolt configuration has possitvely nothing to with range. If you insist that you have observed a closed bolt marker shooting further than an open-bolt marker when they both fire at the exact same paint at the same veloctiy then you are an idiot and/or a liar (flatlines and other backspin devices aside). That sounds harsh, and it is, but it is completely inexcuseable that this absurd myth is allowed to continue, especially here.

    -Kweasi
    Destroy the Hype

  3. #33
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    heh, ok, could it be possible that closed bolt systems are more gas efficient than open bolt systems? since the entire air charge will be used to drive the ball down the barrel, instead of some it escaping the feed tube? and does your phantom fire farther because of some intrinsic quality, or is it because of how you are firing it? aka, 1 shot, wait 1 second, 1 shot, as opposed to your semi, where you fire 3 quick shots, then wait, 3 quick shots. one will be more consistent than the other.

  4. #34
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    It can be more efficient until the ends of the earth. It will not matter. The chronograph measures velocity after the ball leaves the barrel. LONG after the gun has stopped affecting the ball. For all purposes, if those balls are going the same speed, are fired from the same spot, they will go ABOUT the same distance (being subject to the elements, of course).

    possibilities why one flew farther:
    1) You WANT to believe the ball goes farther, so that's what you see. It's a common human condition. Eyes are the worst recording devices for measurements.
    2) They chronoed in differently.
    3) One of their adjusters backed out.
    4) CO2 fluctuates enough to change the velocity of one or the other.
    5) God decided physics doesn't apply to your guns.
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  5. #35
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    a couple of the previous posts forgot to make the following points.

    the more money you spend on a marker, the farther it will shoot *

    adding a pump arm to anything makes it shoot farther.... this includes the automag vs pumpmag, autococker/sniper 2...

    closed bolt operation "0wn3z" physics, it will make you shoot further, more accurate, have your paintballs follow other physics... even as you approach high rates of fire, and closed bolt operation mimics open bolt operation, closed bolt still is better

    some mornings i wake up and wonder why i even bother with certan types of people

    *i have seen people that make the argument that their marker shoots futher than brand x marker carry tools to change their velocity on the field.
    As society and the problems that face it become more and more complex and machines become more and more intelligent, people will let machines make more of their decisions for them, simply because machine-made decisions will bring better results than man-made ones. Eventually a stage may be reached at which the decisions necessary to keep the system running will be so complex that human beings will be incapable of making them intelligently. At that stage the machines will be in effective control. People won't be able to just turn the machines off, because they will be so dependent on them that turning them off would amount to suicide

    sometimes I just freaking hate people. which means the next day I will love them for the sake of balance, but right now I will just concentrate on the hating. Hate hate hate. Blaaaarg!

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  6. #36
    InvisibleBill Guest
    Okay, why does the pump arm make it shoot farther? Thanks, IB. Oh, yeah, kweasi, wouldn't that extra gas that hits the ball in a closed bolt gun give it the more veloctiy?

  7. #37
    Read very carefully:

    We all agree that setting aside things like air resistance and the angle and elevation of the shooting platform, the thing that decides range is velocity- yes? Right, Good.

    We all agree that velocity is the speed of a ball as measured by a chronograph- after it has left the barrel- yes? Right, good.

    So, that means that whatever the bolt does to the ball before it exits the barrels doesn't mean dink-all, since it's the velocity of the ball AFTER IT LEAVES THE BARREL that's important- Yes? Right? Good!

    So, that means that open-bolts and closed-bolts, if firing at the same velocity fire at the same range- YES!! RIGHT!! GOOD!!! DAMMIT!!!!

    You guys are making my blood pressure go through the ROOF!

    -Kweasi
    Last edited by Kweasi; 07-25-2002 at 11:15 AM.

  8. #38
    IB, the pump arm does not make anything shoot farther - it was a statement made in jest. It would be like claiming that a double trigger will make a gun shoot farther.

    To put Kweasi's post another way, if you have a cocker and a mag sitting side-by-side, and both are chrono'd to 285, the closed bolt gun will not have a higher velocity - they are both shooting 285!

  9. #39
    InvisibleBill Guest
    okay, thanks for you comments...now, though, I am stumped on my design/idea. So could you help by giving Ideas? thanks IB.

  10. #40
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    my autococker shoots father AND flater then a mag cause its a closed bolt design cause the magical blue fairys make it work better cause they only like closed bolts
    I only began to truly understand my problem when I started to notice myself unsuccessfully trying to include myself in conversations that didn't exist

  11. #41
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    bill, why would you wanna ruin sometiin that is perfect? making a mag closedbolt i think would not add any advantages, it would be cool and be like BIZZWAH WOOT! closedbolt mag Yeah....but i cant see any actual use for it. also, how would you return the bolt? you would have to stup using the spring



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  12. #42
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    Open bolt vs. Closed bolt hehehe... They both operate the same at a rate of fire more then a couple bps. Air will still come up the breech of a cocker if you fire a string of shots.

    PS- 300 fps is 300 fps. Even if the extra air down the barrel gave a higher velocity, you would still need to turn it down to 300 fps

  13. #43
    InvisibleBill Guest
    blue fairies?? I have orange fairies that bless my mag every day. beat that! The only reason I would ever think of turning a mag into a closed bolt operation is for the fun of it, and it was fun to think of how I would turn the mag into a closed bolt gun, because there isn't much else to think about when you a swimming a timed 400 five times in a row. Rock on, IB

  14. #44
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    ok, this thread has a lot to do with open vs closed bolt and i need to say the following.

    1) open bolt and closed bolt markers will attain the SAME DISTANCE!

    2) closed bolt markers ARE MORE ACCURATE AT LONGER DISTANCES than open bolt!

    The fact is ANYONE who has shot a cocker (with good paint/barrel match...VERY IMPORTANT) and shot any open bolt gun, they will deffinently say the cocker was more accurate. this is not because they love the gun, or are "cocker jocks" or that kind of crap...the fact is the gun really is DEAD ON ACCURATE AT ALL DISTANCES from when it leaves the barrel to when it hits the ground.

    the further away your target is, the more accurate a closed bolt cocker will be. anyone can sit here and blab on and on about physics and why this and that is true or false, but the simple fact remains that if you shoot a cocker and then shoot lets say a mag, the accuracy up close (say 30 yards) is identicle...however at a further distance (lets say 50 yards) the paintballs shot from the cocker will have a far more stable and identicle trajectory than the mags, thus making the gun more accurate.

    I currently own a minimag with a freak barrel system. my friend owns a 2002 stock vert feed cocker with a J&J barrel. in any event we wanted to test which of our guns was more accurate. we both used PMI premium paint for our tests (i had the correct freak incert and *the paint* is the same bore size as the J&J). we held our guns at the same angle perpendicular to the ground and fired a string of 15 rounds each. my gun (the mag) was just as accurate as his cocker for approximately the first 35 yards. after that my gun would be inconsistant, meaning the ball did not always end up remaining in a straight line. my friend's cocker retained the same perfect line of paint from start to finish. ball after ball would stay in a near perfect line one after the other. same at 10 yards, 20 yards, 30 yards all the way till it hit the ground i'd say about 50-60 yards away. i did the same test with his cocker and my tippmann and my mag and my tippmann (the tippmann also had a J&J barrel) and was no where near the cocker and less consistant than the mag. the same test was preformed with a spyder xtra, flash and compaq. none of those guns came close to the cocker, and all had a J&J barrel. all guns were run on compressed air also. the only gun that preformed nearly identicle to the cocker was an angel.

    no physics was needed for this test, the results spoke for themself. the fact is that cockers in general, when working properly...when we did this test my friend had taken the gun stock from the box and not touched a thing on it meaning it was all factory timed and working perfectly, are a more accurate gun than any open bolt. i only speak for cockers when i say closed bolt, because i have not had any experiece with any other closed bolt gun.

    if anyone says open bolt vs close bolt is a myth, then before making yourself look like a fool go and compare a properly timed and working cocker to any other open bolt gun and prove to yourself that you're an idiot, instead of wasting other people's time doing it for you.
    Last edited by The Creature; 08-24-2002 at 11:36 PM.
    If you do not have the level 10 bolt, then you had better be on back order status with AGD!

  15. #45
    FreshmanBob Guest
    Originally posted by chris99506
    my phantom shoots further and straighter than my spyder or my rt, i'm not saying it's way way better but it is noticeable.
    Then maybe your phantoms velocity tends to spike w/ 12 grams?

    As far as the moving mass goes, someone do me a favor an weigh an autococker hammer and an automag bolt, i doubt there will be much difference..

  16. #46
    FreshmanBob Guest
    Originally posted by The Creature
    we both used PMI premium paint for our tests (i had the correct freak incert and it is the same bore size as the J&J).
    I hate to tell you, but the freak inserts labeling isn't always accurate, usually pretty off. Try doing the same test with a j&j.

  17. #47
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    i did it with 4 different incerts, the 684, 685, 687 and 689. those were the closet matching bore sizes. the 687 worked the best and yeilded the best results. however, none of them compared to the cocker at approximately 50 yards. i do know what i am doing, i am not some newbie feeding the hype.

  18. #48
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    also, the spyders (compact, xtra, flash) and tippmann 98 custom had the J&J ceramic barrel...same one as the cocker only different threading...and yet they did not come close to the cocker at even 40 yards, explain that.

  19. #49
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    Originally posted by FreshmanBob
    As far as the moving mass goes, someone do me a favor an weigh an autococker hammer and an automag bolt, i doubt there will be much difference..
    for a regular level 7 bolt i bet there won't be much of a difference, but as for the level 10 bolt it would be way lighter. i will test it out next time i visit my friend.

  20. #50
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    The creature, were you shooting these guns over a crono?

  21. #51
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    the cocker was having a bit of trouble keeping a steady velocity because it was new and the o-rings had not been worn in...however later in the day the gun was finally getting a steady reading over the crono of between 280-290 fps. my minimag was shooting consistantly between 293-297. the tippmann was between 275-290. the spyder compact was all over the place. the xtra about 277 (thats about the average cause it did jump high and low once or twice). and the flash at around 275-290.

    the velocity jumps between each gun do play a role in the accuracy, however that is part of the defect of each gun and it must be taken into consideration. my mag was shooting PERFECTLY all day keeping within 4 feet per second with each shot. mags deffinently deserve a lot of credit for being so consistant because it really helps a lot. after the o-rings on the cocker were worn in the velocity spikes stopped and it stayed consistant at around 280-290.

  22. #52
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    so are you guys done trying to find flaws in my test or can you simply not accept the fact that cockers are a more accurate gun because of their better and more efficient design? before you nit-pick and say "thats crap" why don't you go try it for yourself? you can be happy with your spyder or tippmann, they are good and reliable guns, however the cocker will preform better, as would an impy, angel or bushy. they are just better guns, and when the cocker is working properly it is the better gun of the group. if you want a perfect blend of speed, accuracy and distance then get an angel...if you want the most superior range and accuracy, then get a cocker. if you want to have a gun you can rely on to work and not have to worry about breaking or having to adjust, and will last, then get a mag. if you do not want to empty your wallet on a gun, then get a spyder. that is the way it is...stop trying to give explinations as to why "all guns were created equil" because they are not!

  23. #53
    Actually, I have bench mounted a cocker right next to a mag, chronied them, and tested their shot patterns at 4 different ranges (using a large gridded board as a target, noting the impact of each shot). There was no noticable difference between the two.

  24. #54
    FreshmanBob Guest
    Again, until you use a J&J barrel on the mag, use the same pressure regulating system on all the gun's and give people more than a day or two to reply, I'm not convinced. Especially seeing how I an many others have had different experiance.

    I will give you that a spyder and tippman won't be very accurate, but that is the whole moving mass theory. Most other somewhat high end guns should shoot pretty much the same.

  25. #55
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    you are so pathetic...what you are asking me to do is make all the guns created EQUAL and they are NOT so stop asking me to do it.

    you could put all the upgrades in the world on a spyder, but in the end it will still be a SPYDER...it has a limit to the preformance it can achieve...the cocker's limit is much much higher, even straight out of the box stock. that is the point i am trying to make.
    Last edited by The Creature; 08-25-2002 at 11:16 AM.

  26. #56
    I must agree with FreshmanBob - it is imperative that components which may affect the ball's flight must be matched as well as possible between the guns being tested. Otherwise, how can you claim that it was the magic pixies in the cocker and not the barrel? When I did my tests, I went out and purchased 2 Armson barrels and 2 PMI ceramics in the same length for each gun. To do otherwise is to knowingly run a flawed experiment.

  27. #57
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    you people annoy the hell out of me...i simply do not understand why it is so impossible for you to accept the fact cockers are the most accurate guns on the market. you give me this crap about flawed tests and paint/barrel match, then when i say the tippmann and spyder had the same barrel you give me this "mass" crap...it's true, and that is why the gun is not as effecient as a cocker. the closed bolt system is one of the most amazing things paintball has ever seen...the drawback to it is the fact they are complicated and can break easily. it seriously is like talking to a group of brick walls in here. i am a mag owner, and i love my mag, however the accuracy is simply not as good as the cocker's, and never will be, unless you turned it into a cocker (i.e. the closed bolt mag idea).

  28. #58
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    if the accuracy is so good at long ranges with cockers, why doesn't Bud Orr say that in his adds? Because he knows the truth, and it would hurt him financialy if he did.

  29. #59
    why it is so impossible for you to accept the fact cockers are the most accurate guns on the market
    Because as I mentioned above, I did the experiment, and both guns shot with equal accuracy. That is why I cannot accept the 'fact' that cockers are more accurate. It's called science.

  30. #60
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    ok, listen "the Creature"

    First off, you did not do the test in a controlled enviroment. Now i dont mean no wind, perfect whether stuff, i mean you didnt try to test one variable. You added too many variables and came up with a load of crap.

    First off, you didnt use the same barrel to test. I dont really care about that, you can try it.

    Second off, you were holding the paintball markers. Are you stupid? your friend is probabally a better shot than you, thats all! IF you wanted to test accuarcy you should have bench mounted the markers. Hence waht Have Blue did.

    Third off, was the cocker running on co2? was the mag running on C02? did you use the same tanks?

    Also you said the cocker was shooting irradically, how do you know it didnt start to act up again?


    fourth off, you seem way to influenced by hype, and that you did not research your material. go look on warpig, they did a closebolt vs open bolt comparison and found no difference.

    Also i ask you, why are some of the most popular markers open bolted? (Angel, timmy, mag, bushy, impy....) if it was so bad, do you think people would use them? do you think companies would spend thousands of dollars producing something that wasnt goping to satisy the consumer?

    Let me guess, you think the low pressure of the cocker makes it accurate also? well lets see, the mag is LP too! ha ha. give it up man, ok? we know the facts, and you do not have them. you need to do your reaserch. please, come back when you know what you are talking about

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