Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 61 to 90 of 98

Thread: My idea (or half idea) for a closed bolt automag

  1. #61
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    North Andover, Massachusetts
    Posts
    64
    alright magman, before you go shooting your mouth off with senseless crap why don't you first read what i wrote. i did mention that i used compressed air for all guns. each gun had a Nitro Duct tank 68ci/3000psi. and for each test I shot the gun, i did not shoot WITH my friend, i physically took his gun over a crono and shot it. at the beginning of the day he was having velocity spikes, he used it and wore in the o-rings until he was remaining consistant, then i did the test. so shut your mouth with this useless crap trying to flame my experiment.
    If you do not have the level 10 bolt, then you had better be on back order status with AGD!

  2. #62
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    North Andover, Massachusetts
    Posts
    64
    Originally posted by magman007
    fourth off, you seem way to influenced by hype, and that you did not research your material. go look on warpig, they did a closebolt vs open bolt comparison and found no difference.

    Also i ask you, why are some of the most popular markers open bolted? (Angel, timmy, mag, bushy, impy....) if it was so bad, do you think people would use them? do you think companies would spend thousands of dollars producing something that wasnt goping to satisy the consumer?
    i am not influenced by the hype, i took the cocker and shot it and see how it did compared to my mag, tippmann, xtra, compact and flash. the cocker preformed the best.

    and at no point did i say that angels, timmys, bushys, impys, or mags were bad...you are putting words in my mouth in a desperate attempt to make me look like an idiot. now i sit here defending myself against things i never said, thanks, i hope you feel special now.

  3. #63
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Good Ole Amish Country, or just outside of lancaster PA
    Posts
    7,581
    Originally posted by The Creature


    you are putting words in my mouth in a desperate attempt to make me look like an idiot.
    Well, i didnt make you look like an idiot, you did it your self. And yes, i do feel special, because i know the truth.

    First off, you have to bench test the markers. ANd some one already did that. And once he got the real results (the ones you didnt want to hear) you dismissed them. HAve Blue has been testing things in the paintball industry for some time, and has dispelled alot of the myths. Also, Mr. Bill Mills of warpig tested that closed bolt, vs open bolt didnt matter. ok? soyou look stupid here, trying to prove evidence wrong, this stuff may float over in PBC and PBN but not here, not where we have the cold hard evidence. It is physics my friend, look into them.



    Originally posted by Tom in reffrence to a post saying he acted like my dad...
    "That's right!
    WHO'S YOUR DADDY!!"
    ALL QUIT AND NO GO!!! Team Icky Forest-Shatnerball 2003!!!
    www.tunamart.com
    DONT SUPPORT HYPOCRITICAL MISSLEAD YOUTH, BOYCOTT HK

  4. #64
    Originally posted by Gambit22
    Oh, Jesus. That's his proof.

    Have you ever thought that perhaps the reason why the Cocker doesn't jump as much is because it uses a ram to recock rather than an unregulated burst of air?And that the blowback burst is normally around 800 psi, compared to 100 psi? Cockers DO have blowback, violent blowback if they are mistimed.
    Exactly the operation is the same as a semiauto firearm
    AND closed bolts are more accurate because it closes of the firing chamber. As for the 30 yd test between open and closed thats like pitting a rifle(semi auto) against a handgun and at that distance there aint much difference.( Both guns would have to be shooting the SAME exact ammo.)
    At say 50 or 60 yds. there would be a massive difference
    Looking for a(n)
    intelliframe OR
    Dye Frame
    RetroValve
    C/F body for minimag

  5. #65
    Open bolts seal off the breech before firing too, you know, if that's what you're implying. At any distance it will not make a difference.

  6. #66
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Good Ole Amish Country, or just outside of lancaster PA
    Posts
    7,581
    ok, you people are incredibly thick headed. We told you that you are wrong and you reffuse to accept it. THen we tell you to test it correctly and you keep telling us but this and but that. well give up already. also look at this.


    open bolt. open:closed: open:closed: open:closed: open:closed
    closes bolt. Closed: open:closed: open:closed:


    NOtice a difference? no, the bolts act the same in rapid firing. GIVE IT UP you are wrong. OK? tell me exactally why you are not wrong. tell me with correctly conducted experiments. tell me relating to physics how exactally a closed bolt marker can be more accurate. TELL me. there is no way. THank you. Deep Blue was created for intelligent threads, this one was, until you started crapping it up. If you wish to become respected members, learn your facts, then if you have something intelligent, and not ignorant, please post it for all to see


    also, if you kknew your markers, you would know that mags use a return spring instead of unregulated air to recock

  7. #67
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Southeast MO
    Posts
    1,050
    Lets look at the operations here:

    Cocker:
    Closed-Fire-Open-Repeat.

    Mag:
    Open-Closed-Fire-Repeat.

    You misunderstand the operation of hte mag. The gun does not fire directly after pulling hte trigger. It fires at the END of the bolt stroke when the piston opens the powertube and gas exits. At the end of the bolt travel the bolt is sealed in the barrel. The only diffrence is the orded in which is it performed.


    Cocker:
    .......-Closed-Fire-Open-Closed-Fire-Open-Closed-Fire-Open

    Mag:
    Open-Closed-Fire-Open-Closed-Fire-Open-Closed-Fire-Open


    Let's look at those side by side:

    .......-Closed-Fire-Open-Closed-Fire-Open-Closed-Fire-Open
    Open-Closed-Fire-Open-Closed-Fire-Open-Closed-Fire-Open


    Same thing. The only diffrence is the time of the gas release. The cocker's is at the beginning, and hte mag's is at the end of the bolt stroke.
    Last edited by Vegeta; 08-27-2002 at 08:06 PM.

  8. #68
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    North Andover, Massachusetts
    Posts
    64
    ok, tell me exactly what you would have to do to a stock minimag to make it preform exactly like a stock vert 2002 autococker. and if any one of you fools dares to tell me that the stock mag will be as accurate as a stock cocker i will come to your house and slap you up side the head for being an idiot.

  9. #69
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Southeast MO
    Posts
    1,050
    You.




    Idiot.











    .I don't think I am the thickheaded one here. it has been proven in tests that they shoot exactly the same. Equal distance and equal accuracy WHEN and ONLY WHEN the expiriment is performed under controlled conditions. that means same barrels same velocity same mounting same input pressure same tank same everything.

  10. #70
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    North Andover, Massachusetts
    Posts
    64
    alright, so tell me EXACTLY what to make each thing for the cocker and for the mag and i will go do it. if they work identicle i will be happy to have gotten my mag to work that way, and will come back and post my results proving myself wrong. if it doesn't work, then you can bite me

  11. #71
    Originally posted by magman007
    ok, you people are incredibly thick headed. We told you that you are wrong and you reffuse to accept it. THen we tell you to test it correctly and you keep telling us but this and but that. well give up already. also look at this.


    open bolt. open:closed: open:closed: open:closed: open:closed
    closes bolt. Closed: open:closed: open:closed:


    NOtice a difference? no, the bolts act the same in rapid firing. GIVE IT UP you are wrong. OK? tell me exactally why you are not wrong. tell me with correctly conducted experiments. tell me relating to physics how exactally a closed bolt marker can be more accurate. TELL me. there is no way. THank you. Deep Blue was created for intelligent threads, this one was, until you started crapping it up. If you wish to become respected members, learn your facts, then if you have something intelligent, and not ignorant, please post it for all to see


    also, if you kknew your markers, you would know that mags use a return spring instead of unregulated air to recock
    SO wut if i'm worng geez u make it sound like its the end of the world or somthin. lightin up a little magman. i doubt if you've never been worng before. SO FORGIVE ME FOR SPEAKIN MY MIND!!!!

  12. #72
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    Palm Bay, FL
    Posts
    810
    Originally posted by Have Blue
    I disagree that closed bolt offers no advantages - A closed bolt system should provide a more stable firing platfrom, as you have less mass being flung around before the ball is actually fired - compare the moving mass of a Viking (bolt and hammer) vs. an Excalibur (just the hammer).
    That is a generalization that while often true, is not always true. It has to do with specific paintgun design, and not bolt position.

    For example, the Delrin blow forward bolt in a Sidekick Semi weighs less than most metal Autococker hammers.

    Moving mass (both speed and weight come into play here for total intertia) compared to still mass (i.e. movement generated by a heavy part can be off-set by a heavy receiver dampening it out) before firing can have a negative effect on accuracy for a single, handheld shot.

    That doesn't apply much to a typical paintball situation though where players tend to shoot strings of multiple shots. In that situation, total moving mass vs. still mass will affect accuracy if it happens before or after the shot is fired, because when it happens after a shot, it is happening before the next shot.

    See you on the field,
    -Bill Mills
    Last edited by billmi; 08-28-2002 at 11:40 AM.

    Computer / Paintball geek
    Technical Editor, World And Regional Paintball Information Guide - http://www.WARPIG.com
    Producer, Paintball Television - http://www.PigTV.net
    Paintball, Motocross trail riding, SCUBA, climbing, surfing, R/C aircraft, fun stuff...

  13. #73
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    Palm Bay, FL
    Posts
    810
    Originally posted by
    Since the bolt is closed when the gas is released, your velocity will be more consistant from shot to shot in cockers and the like, unlike say, an angel or bushmaster.
    The bolt is also closed in Bushmasters, Automags, Angels, Spyders, and other open bolt paintguns when the gas is released.

    The terms "open bolt" and "closed bolt" refer to bolt position at rest between shots, not bolt position when the gas is released.

    See you on the field,
    -Bill Mills

  14. #74
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    Palm Bay, FL
    Posts
    810
    Originally posted by
    I agree, there is not much of difference in accuracy at 30 yds. But what about at 50 yds? Then that extra gas that doesn't go down the barrel might mean the difference between an elimination and a miss.
    If that extra gas did go down the barrel, the velocity would be higher, and you'd have to adjust the paintgun to eliminate that "extra gas" (i.e. tune down the velocity).

    See you on the field,
    -Bill Mills

  15. #75
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    Palm Bay, FL
    Posts
    810
    Originally posted by
    Howdy. My theory is that the closed bolt design puts that gas that would normally exit through the elbow behind the ball, giving it better velocity. Thanks for giving you opinions! IB.
    That makes perfect sense Bill.

    If all paingun valves put out the exact same amount of gas when fired, you would have an advantage to having a bolt/recock system that is more gas efficient (not that open bolt is necessarily less efficient, but many blowback open bolt paintguns do waste gas up the feedneck as you have noticed). The better paintguns would have more velocity and thus better range.

    The problem with that theory is two fold. First not all paintgun valves are the same. Secondly, on most paintguns the velocity is adjustable. Since paintball velocities, for safety reasons are limited to 300 fps, and most paintguns are capable or reaching and exceeding this limit, there is no "velocity advantage" to closed bolt paintguns.

    See you on the field,
    -Bill Mills

  16. #76
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    Palm Bay, FL
    Posts
    810
    Originally posted by The Creature
    The fact is ANYONE who has shot a cocker (with good paint/barrel match...VERY IMPORTANT) and shot any open bolt gun, they will deffinently say the cocker was more accurate.
    That is not true.

    The SC Ironmen have shot 'cockers and they shoot open bolt Matrix paintguns. They do not say the 'cocker is more accurate. This is from casual conversation, not something they're forced to say for sponsorship reasons. The same goes for Ground Zero and their open bolt Intimidators. The same for the guys on Aftershock that shoot open bolt paintguns - they don't have to choose based on sponsorship, they get to shoot what they want.

    If there really was this difference in accuracy, why would so many pro and top am players, who's chance of winning depends on being able to shoot accurately, use open bolt paintguns?

    See you on the field,
    -Bill Mills

  17. #77
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    Palm Bay, FL
    Posts
    810
    Ooops, hit reply instead of edit :-P

  18. #78
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    North Andover, Massachusetts
    Posts
    64
    i would assume cause they are (usually) faster and more reliable than cockers...

    In any event, i did not mention guns such as the impy and bushy or angel much, because i really did not think much about them. I guess you are right, but considering i have never shot one of them i can not compare them to any of the guns i listed and used. If i did, according to what i hear, i am sure they would work just as good, if not better.

    I generalized and i shouldn't have, sorry.
    Last edited by The Creature; 08-28-2002 at 09:36 PM.

  19. #79
    FreshmanBob Guest
    Bill Mills,
    Your the man.

  20. #80
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    North Andover, Massachusetts
    Posts
    64
    BIll i appreciate how responcibly and unbiosed you reply to people whether right or wrong, because it makes things so much easier. I do not mind admitting i am wrong to someone who can still treat me with common decency. Naturally the more offensive a responce is the more people tend to become defensive, so when someone proves you're wrong, but does it in a way that is fair, considerate and non threatening it allows the person to say "oh ok i see your point, now i know better." Instead of "screw you ^%@&*"

  21. #81
    I have seen zero difference in the accuracy of my cocker or my mags which both utilize the same Freak kit on them. I have also seen no difference between my cocker which I run with stock internals vs. the cockers of people who use the various LP internals on the market. It's hype. Don't buy it.

    Bill, Matricies are closed bolt btw.
    O FLAGPULL O

    Cincinnati All-Stars

  22. #82
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    Palm Bay, FL
    Posts
    810
    The Creature,

    Thanks. I'd much rather spend time talking about paintball than getting into a 4th grade level name calling match. One of the reasons AO is on the short list of forums I post in is because it is well policed by the mods and has a good set of rules in place to keep it more to conversation and discussion, rather than little ego contests.

    Top Secret,

    No sir, the Matrix is an open bolt paintgun. See the 2000 World Cup episode of PigTV (http://www.pigtv.net/00_summary/00_WorldCup.shtml). There's an interview with Eric Stork introducing the 'gun and shots of it firing without the breech in place, where you can clearly see the bolt back in the rest position, and popping forward when it fires.

    See you on the field,
    -Bill Mills

  23. #83
    Interesting, I always believed that they operated closed bolt.

  24. #84
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    Palm Bay, FL
    Posts
    810
    Originally posted by Top Secret
    Interesting, I always believed that they operated closed bolt.
    I think, at one point some of their ads said something similar to Air Power's label that they used for the Vector - "Simulated closed bolt." That's "marketing speak" for "open bolt."

    I was told by a magazine editor that the Firestorm kit PGI makes for the Autococker, which the manufacturer says has both "open bolt" and "closed bolt" modes is also always open bolt. The "closed bolt" mode just forces a delay holding the bolt closed for a moment longer from the time it closes until it releases the gas (haven't seen it myself, so take it with a grain of salt.)

    See you on the field,
    -Bill Mills

  25. #85
    The Firestorm is released in two version: open bolt and closed bolt.

  26. #86
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    Palm Bay, FL
    Posts
    810
    Originally posted by Gambit22
    The Firestorm is released in two version: open bolt and closed bolt.
    And according to the magazine editor (again, I haven't seen this in person to confirmit ) the spoke to me about this, the version they is being sold as closed bolt is actually open bolt, and just waits for a longer time period after the bolt closes before it fires.

    See you on the field,
    -Bill Mills

  27. #87
    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Location
    Southeast MO
    Posts
    1,050
    Mistre Mills is just cleaning up in this thread.

    Nice to see someone well know in the comunity be so informative someplace like here.

  28. #88
    Originally posted by billmi


    I think, at one point some of their ads said something similar to Air Power's label that they used for the Vector - "Simulated closed bolt." That's "marketing speak" for "open bolt."

    I was told by a magazine editor that the Firestorm kit PGI makes for the Autococker, which the manufacturer says has both "open bolt" and "closed bolt" modes is also always open bolt. The "closed bolt" mode just forces a delay holding the bolt closed for a moment longer from the time it closes until it releases the gas (haven't seen it myself, so take it with a grain of salt.)

    See you on the field,
    -Bill Mills
    Just re-toured the E-Matrix page. I'm suprised AO-ers haven't ripped that gun to shreds with all the claims that they put out. "Statistically the most accurate..." "ROF: Classified. No equal" When will manufactuers learn...

  29. #89
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Good Ole Amish Country, or just outside of lancaster PA
    Posts
    7,581
    hmm, bill im sorry if i came off as a little child arguing, but after the creature being told repeatedly by several memebers, i know i started to get a little testy. I appoligize. Any ways, the creature has been steared to truth.


    Now if olny arkfear would listen...

  30. #90
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    North Andover, Massachusetts
    Posts
    64
    lol, you just said sorry for acting childish, yet you still play the blame game trying to explain why it was everyone else's fault but your own.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •