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Thread: RT PRO with level 10 chopping paint

  1. #1

    RT PRO with level 10 chopping paint

    Hey guys,

    Picked up an RT Pro a few weeks back. Initially I was using a ninja 68 4500 at a preset output pressure of about 800 psi.

    I didn't like the trigger so I replaced that reg (on the bottle) with a SHP reg with an output of 1100 psi. This made the trigger super reactive and it flies now.

    Took it out to play today and I was breaking more than 3 balls out of every hundred all day (shot 800-900 rounds).

    I was emailing with an AGD tech a few weeks ago and he explained to me it has a level 10 bolt after I described the power tube to him.

    The paint was breaking in the breach, not the barrel. You can tell because when you remove the hopper there is paint in the gun's feed neck and the neck of the hopper as well.

    Few different things:
    -I thought the level 10 bolt was supposed to stop the bolt from chopping paint.

    -How can I confirm I do in fact have a level 10?

    -How can I resolve this?

    Additional information:
    -I am using an old school revolution hopper. I suppose the hopper could be too slow to keep up with the gun but isn't the level 10 supposed to stop the bolt if the ball is not completely chambered?

    -Today I used a 14 inch smart parts freak barrel system with a .687 insert. The paint fit the insert snugly and I was able to blow it through using my breath.

    -The gun has a vertical feed body. Not sure if it is AGD or aftermarket.

    -I broke paint with the 800 psi compressed air reg... Just seems like it got worse with the 1100 psi reg today.

    -The bolt does not have a foamie.

    -I was sometimes breaking the first shot... Not always a chop in the middle of a string of shots...

    Thanks for any help you can offer or recommendations you can make. This would be one sweet gun if I could get this addressed.

    Mondoatx

  2. #2
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    Lvl 10 should have foamie in it.

    You can recognize lvl 10 bolt from that its stem goes below bolt lip and is hollow. Also lvl 10 bolt back lip has chamfer on it.

    Is that twist lock body or auto cocker threaded?

    Also check the detents, which ever style they are.

    If it is lvl 10 then here's how to tune it. Direct link to Athomases post. http://www.automags.org/forums/showt...97#post2828797

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mondoatx View Post
    Hey guys,

    Picked up an RT Pro a few weeks back. Initially I was using a ninja 68 4500 at a preset output pressure of about 800 psi.

    I didn't like the trigger so I replaced that reg (on the bottle) with a SHP reg with an output of 1100 psi. This made the trigger super reactive and it flies now.

    Took it out to play today and I was breaking more than 3 balls out of every hundred all day (shot 800-900 rounds).

    I was emailing with an AGD tech a few weeks ago and he explained to me it has a level 10 bolt after I described the power tube to him.

    The paint was breaking in the breach, not the barrel. You can tell because when you remove the hopper there is paint in the gun's feed neck and the neck of the hopper as well.
    Just because paint in the breech, does not necessarily mean that it is chopping.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mondoatx View Post
    Few different things:
    -I thought the level 10 bolt was supposed to stop the bolt from chopping paint.
    When properly set up, paint will bounce off a mag with a L10. Poor man's test is, take the gun airred up & put a pen cap in the breech & pull the trigger. It should bounce off it and reset itself. If not then, you do not have a L10 or its not set up correctly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mondoatx View Post
    -How can I confirm I do in fact have a level 10?
    Follow the steps from the other poster. You should also have had a small disk, brass collars, orings and shims with the gun. If you didn't have them, then you kore than likely didn't get it with the gun.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mondoatx View Post
    -How can I resolve this?
    If you bought the gun and it was supposed to have a L10, then contact AGD and they will rectify the problem. Mistakes sometimes do happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mondoatx View Post
    Additional information:
    -I am using an old school revolution hopper. I suppose the hopper could be too slow to keep up with the gun but isn't the level 10 supposed to stop the bolt if the ball is not completely chambered?
    No. Regardless of the hopper, the bolt will bounce off an improperly seated ball.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mondoatx View Post
    -Today I used a 14 inch smart parts freak barrel system with a .687 insert. The paint fit the insert snugly and I was able to blow it through using my breath.
    Was it hot out? Paint can swell causing the bore to go from "snug" to possibly "too tight". Also check the bore and the barrel itself for nicks, burrs or anything else that shouldn't be there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mondoatx View Post
    -The gun has a vertical feed body. Not sure if it is AGD or aftermarket.
    If you look on the site, and it looks a ULE body, then it is one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mondoatx View Post
    -I broke paint with the 800 psi compressed air reg... Just seems like it got worse with the 1100 psi reg today.
    I do not believe in using SHP regs as they can cause more problems. The more reactive the trigger is, the faster the gun will shot & the faster the balls get into breech. Faster is not always better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mondoatx View Post
    -The bolt does not have a foamie.
    It doesn't have one, i.e. it was shot off the bolt face (there should be a place to put it on the bolt face, a cut out) or did it never have one? If you have a solid nosed bolt, then you did not have a L10 bolt.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mondoatx View Post
    -I was sometimes breaking the first shot... Not always a chop in the middle of a string of shots...
    Again, paint is a variable & it may be other factors in the breaks. If the paint swelled, then the balls that were breaking where caused by the barrel. If you couldn'tshot it out the barrel, then the only place it could go is in the breech.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mondoatx View Post
    Thanks for any help you can offer or recommendations you can make. This would be one sweet gun if I could get this addressed.

    Mondoatx
    That is what this site is here for. Honestly, pic of the gun, bolt and body would help in identifying any problems you have.

    But here are questions for you:

    Where did you get this gun?
    Did you buy it new from AGD or used?
    Did you change or adjust anything prior to you using it?
    Do you have a classic valve (stainless steel) or a valve that says RT Pro or has a X on it?

  4. #4
    Laku,

    Thanks for your response.

    I will take a picture(s) of the bolt and power tube components this evening and post it. The bolt stem is hollow and extends beyond the base of the bolt.

    The body is threaded for auto cocker barrels.

    When you say check the detents... What exactly am I checking for? How do I know if the detent is good or bad?

    Will take a look at the post about tuning the level 10... But I bought the gun used and it didn't come with any extra shims or parts of anything.

    Thanks again for your help.

    Mondoatx

  5. #5
    To check the detents, remove the air tank and hopper from your gun and press on the detent(s) inside the breech with your finger. Good detents feel springy and offer some resistance against being pressed in.

    A detent with a bad spring may have close to zero resistance or it may have a tendency to stick or stay in when being pressed in. This will allow double feeds to occur, causing breaks in the breech. A detent can also lose its teflon ball which will allow the seated paintball to rest in the empty space to the side and slightly forward where the teflon ball used to be, also causing breaks in the breech as well as other symptoms.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghost flanker View Post
    To check the detents, remove the air tank and hopper from your gun and press on the detent(s) inside the breech with your finger. Good detents feel springy and offer some resistance against being pressed in.

    A detent with a bad spring may have close to zero resistance or it may have a tendency to stick or stay in when being pressed in. This will allow double feeds to occur, causing breaks in the breech. A detent can also lose its teflon ball which will allow the seated paintball to rest in the empty space to the side and slightly forward where the teflon ball used to be, also causing breaks in the breech as well as other symptoms.
    You also want to make sure you or the previous owner didn't over tighten them so they are making contact with the bolt.

  7. #7
    Assuming your detent is good, though, I think the most likely culprit is the missing foamie on your Level 10 bolt. This is bad for 2 reasons:

    1.) The obvious... Foam is soft. Aluminum not so much.

    2.) Much more importantly, the Level 10 foamie is responsible for seating the paintball in the correct position up against the detent(s) and keeping it in-line with the ball stack. In the case of a missing foamie, the seated paintball is able to roll backwards about 1/8" towards the bolt. This allows the next paintball above to drop further down a little more and slightly in front of the seated paintball, creating more of a staggered stack rather than a true vertical stack. This sets the stage for a lot more friction between the first two paintballs to occur when firing. Now, when the gun is fired, the seated paintball must push the paintball on top and slightly in front of it out of the way. The paintball on top will either be pushed upward through the feedneck as the seated paintball underneath slides past it, or the two paintballs will simply be crushed into each other, which would explain the presence of paint in your feedneck. Or the paintball on top might only develop a hairline crack in its shell, thereby priming it to blow apart upon the impact of the next shot's air blast.

    I do not think that an overly small bore size is causing the breaks. If you can consistently blow your paintballs through the barrel in the morning, then you'll be fine throughout the rest of the day, even with humidity. I underbore all the time, ~.686 sized paint with a .682 bore insert on my mags and a .679 insert on my Phantom, and I don't break paint.

    By the way, what kind of paint were you using that was breaking so badly?
    Last edited by ghost flanker; 09-12-2016 at 04:03 PM.

  8. #8
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    How was your paint quality ??

  9. #9
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    I've had paint that was so bad, that I couldn't fire a shot out my barrel without it breaking, even with the level 10. That was with a properly sized barrel. With experience, I have come to overbore all my barrels and don't have that issue any more. Good paint benefits from a proper bore match. Overboring, doesn't hurt the accuracy that much but does affect the efficiency a bit. The upside is that it really helps prevent busted balls when you have really brittle paint.

    The level 10 bolt only prevents chops in the first 1/4 inch of the bolt movement. The bolt would need to be at the back of the breach for a ball to be partially loaded which is a situation that would cause it to be chopped. The bolt would be very gentle when it made contact with the ball in that location. Once it gets past the 1/4 inch point, the bolt is subject to full forward force. If the barrel offers too much resistance due to an oversize ball, or a barrel is too tight for the paint, then the force of the bolt will smash it into the opening causing some of the paint to squirt back onto the bolt and up into the breach. This can happen even if the paint barely touches the barrel walls, if the seams are extremely weak. Its something that should be looked at.

    Normally, a level 10 bolt will prevent all chops, even if you use the shortest gold spring. The air source doesn't matter. The force on the bolt is held constant by the regulated air set by the velocity adjuster. If the first shot in a string is busting, then that is an indication that you are not experiencing a chop, but rather a barrel break.
    Except for the Automag in front, its usually the man behind the equipment that counts.

  10. #10
    [QUOTE=Nobody;2902345]Just because paint in the breech, does not necessarily mean that it is chopping.



    When properly set up, paint will bounce off a mag with a L10. Poor man's test is, take the gun airred up & put a pen cap in the breech & pull the trigger. It should bounce off it and reset itself. If not then, you do not have a L10 or its not set up correctly.

    I stuck the body of a pen (without the ink in it) in the breech and fired it a couple of times... I was expecting it to destroy the pen... but the bolt stopped and reset multiple times (it was crazy!)... From what I have read, this means I do in fact have a level 10... does this mean it is tuned correctly?

    Follow the steps from the other poster. You should also have had a small disk, brass collars, orings and shims with the gun. If you didn't have them, then you kore than likely didn't get it with the gun.



    If you bought the gun and it was supposed to have a L10, then contact AGD and they will rectify the problem. Mistakes sometimes do happen.



    No. Regardless of the hopper, the bolt will bounce off an improperly seated ball.



    Was it hot out? Paint can swell causing the bore to go from "snug" to possibly "too tight". Also check the bore and the barrel itself for nicks, burrs or anything else that shouldn't be there.

    It was hot out, I am in Texas... but it was breaking just as much in the morning when it was cooler as it was in the afternoon.


    If you look on the site, and it looks a ULE body, then it is one.

    It is a ULE Body (it has the flames milled into the feed neck)

    I do not believe in using SHP regs as they can cause more problems. The more reactive the trigger is, the faster the gun will shot & the faster the balls get into breech. Faster is not always better.



    It doesn't have one, i.e. it was shot off the bolt face (there should be a place to put it on the bolt face, a cut out) or did it never have one? If you have a solid nosed bolt, then you did not have a L10 bolt.

    I will order some and put one on the bolt. Now that you mention it... if you look closely at the face of the bolt (which is totally flat) you can see where it looks like something was glued there before.

    Again, paint is a variable & it may be other factors in the breaks. If the paint swelled, then the balls that were breaking where caused by the barrel. If you couldn'tshot it out the barrel, then the only place it could go is in the breech.

    I will try a larger insert next time.

    That is what this site is here for. Honestly, pic of the gun, bolt and body would help in identifying any problems you have.

    But here are questions for you:

    Where did you get this gun? I bought it used from a field called Outlaw Paintball in Pflugerville TX.
    Did you buy it new from AGD or used? Used
    Did you change or adjust anything prior to you using it? No, I tried to put a power tube spacer kit in it but as soon as I opened the power tube it was abundantly obvious that this was not an old school mag with spacers.
    Do you have a classic valve (stainless steel) or a valve that says RT Pro or has a X on it? The valve is black with an X and the letters "RT" over the X with the word "pro" to the right of the letters "RT"

    I have attached an image of the gun and a couple of the bolt (1 of the back of the bolt and 1 of the front of the bolt). First time posting images... if you can't view them please let me know.


    RT Image.jpgfront of bolt.jpgBack of Bolt.jpg

    Thanks Nobody!

  11. #11
    Thanks ghost flanker.

    I checked the detent and while it did offer some resistance... it seemed a little loose, so I ordered some new detents from the AGD website.

    I also checked out the foamies on the site... they look way different (thicker) and cover WAY more surface area than the old level 7 foamies from back in the day (those were a tiny foam circle that went right in the middle of the bolt's face)... so I ordered some of those as well. I can see that with the size and thickness of the foamie not having one could possibly make a huge difference.

    I threw away the bag from the paint and can't remember what kind it was... but it is what I have been using for the last few months with no problem in my Rize (which is super easy on paint, haven't ever broken a ball with that gun). The shell is purple (like a lavender) with green stripes and the fill is purple.

    I will go to the field again in a week or so and I will let you know what kind it was.

    Thanks again,

    Mondoatx

  12. #12
    audioSLAVE,

    Thanks. I ordered some new detents because the one in there now seems a little loose. I will make sure not to overtighten when I install the new ones.

  13. #13
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    which bolt spring is it using(gold, red, or grey) and how does it look?

  14. #14
    honestly the paint seems kind of hard... it is regular to have to shoot people 2-3 times to get one to break... it didn't seem any better or worse than any other weekend... but it definitely didn't seem overly brittle. I play at a field that is pretty busy... so I don't think they sit on their paint for too long.

  15. #15
    Thanks athomas.

    I will try to overbore next time I am out and will see how it goes. Good point with the first shot in a string...

    Mondoatx

  16. #16
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    way back in the day it was not uncommon at all. now days I don't get to play enough to know. I do know that the Valken we used at Tuna ball this year bounced a lot like we used to get back in the 90's. but hard paint should be harder to break in the gun.

  17. #17
    vintage,

    It is the gold spring. It looks like a spring ;-)

    What do you mean exactly when you say "how does it look"?

    Thanks,

    mondoatx

  18. #18
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    does it stick past the end of the bolt and how far? you may need a new one. and welcome to the forum by the way.

  19. #19
    Vintage,

    Thanks.

    Yes, the spring sticks out past the bolt.

    Here is an image:

    bolt with spring.jpg

  20. #20
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    Is that an illusion because of the angle of the picture or is that bolt stem off center?



  21. #21
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    spring looks a little short to me. i'm sure a more knowledgeable person will chime in.

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Beemer View Post
    Is that an illusion because of the angle of the picture or is that bolt stem off center?


    It is the angle... The stem of he bolt is centered.

  23. #23
    Mondoatx,

    Paintball breakage is the most common and most misdiagnosed problem in paintball. The issue is the problem can stem from paintball quality all the way to gun malfunctions. You have to eliminate issues one at a time so you can narrow it down.
    Paint is relatively easy. Do a simple bounce test. While not terribly scientific, it says a lot about the paintball. Simply hold the ball at shoulder height and drop it on a smooth flat hard surface like a garage or basement floor. On the average you'll be dropping from 5 ft. If that ball bounces at least once before breaking...its most likely not the paint. Be sure to test several balls from a couple bags to get the best sample. If the paint breaks every time you drop it... consider the paint is very brittle and may be the issue.

    Detents. Detents are the second most common paint problem. It's simple to test. Put your hopper on with paintballs in it at least half full. Turn your hopper on. Let the loader cycle until it shuts off and sets up the gun ready to shoot. Now remove your barrel. If the hopper turns on and paint starts to stream out the front of your body, then the detent is not working. This means the gun will load more than one paintball in your barrel and that's a sure bet to break paint.

    The Gun. Before messing with levels 10's and making changes, you bought the gun used. When was the last time the entire gun was service? If you have no idea, then service the entire gun. That means a complete soft o-ring change out across the entire gun along with a serious detailed cleaning. Once that's done you can reset the level 10 and in most cases if you've done all that I've said here, you will already be done. The gun will not break paint if it is serviced and functioning properly.

    If the gun somehow continues to break paint after doing all of the above, then most likely then gun is also just not shooting properly. In other words there is something seriously out of spec and the gun just won't shoot right no matter what you do.
    At that point send the gun into the Factory or Tuna or turn it over to someone who has spare parts and components that can determine the out of spec issue.

  24. #24
    Sandman,

    Thanks I will check the paint and the detents.

    Regarding servicing the gun... couple of questions (more than a couple I guess):
    -When you say "soft" o-ring change... what exactly does that NOT include?
    -I can wipe down the gun and the internals and re-oil everything... does that suffice in terms of cleaning, or am I missing something? Am I just looking to remove grime?
    -How do I "reset" the level 10?
    -I saw the replacement carrier piece for sale on the AGD site... I thought I needed multiple sizes to see which one fit the best... but I only saw 1 on the site.
    -Do I need to order shims for the power tube or a new spring for the bolt?

    Thanks for all the information.

    Mondoatx
    Last edited by Mondoatx; 09-13-2016 at 10:30 PM.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mondoatx View Post
    Sandman,

    Thanks I will check the paint and the detents.

    Regarding servicing the gun... couple of questions (more than a couple I guess)
    The more questions you ask, the more you can and will learn, so never think a question is too stupid to ask.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mondoatx View Post
    -When you say "soft" o-ring change... what exactly does that NOT include?
    This can mean 2 things: 1) replacing all the orings that are actually soft and gummy or 2) replacing all the orings that are in moving areas to better seal against those parts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mondoatx View Post
    -I can wipe down the gun and the internals and re-oil everything... does that suffice in terms of cleaning, or am I missing something? Am I just looking to remove grime?
    No, that is pretty much how you clean then gun. You do not have to pre-oil it, as you can assemble the gun but put 3-5 xrops of oil into the ASA or directly into the air input valve then airing the gun up and shooting out the excess. This will get the oil to where its needed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mondoatx View Post
    -How do I "reset" the level 10?
    After the gun has been serviced (see above), you then re-install the L10, using the smallest carrier and shims (if needed).

    Quote Originally Posted by Mondoatx View Post
    -I saw the replacement carrier piece for sale on the AGD site... I thought I needed multiple sizes to see which one fit the best... but I only saw 1 on the site.
    You can order specific sizes. I believe you can order the specific sizes (after determing which one you have).

    Quote Originally Posted by Mondoatx View Post
    -Do I need to order shims for the power tube or a new spring for the bolt?
    That depends on if you do the work yourself or if you send it to AGD or Tuna. They will use appropriate size sizes and parts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mondoatx View Post
    Thanks for all the information.

    Mondoatx
    I do understand wanting to fix this yourself (getting into the gun, understanding how it works and how the parts interact with each other) or just sending it away to those that can fix it and get any possible problems fixed quickly. So you have a choice.

    Also, if you do order your parts through Tuna, you can tell him exactly what you need and what you are doing and he will sell you exactly what you need.

  26. #26
    I sent Tuna an email. He said he could service the gun and tune the bolt for me, so I think I am going to send it to him. I will be sure to let everyone know how things turn out. Thanks for your help up to this point.

    mondoatx

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mondoatx View Post
    I sent Tuna an email. He said he could service the gun and tune the bolt for me, so I think I am going to send it to him. I will be sure to let everyone know how things turn out. Thanks for your help up to this point.

    mondoatx
    Yes. Send it here and I will get you going.
    Email me for low prices on ALL AGD Products and more. tunaman5@verizon.net
    Tunamart

  28. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Mondoatx View Post
    I sent Tuna an email. He said he could service the gun and tune the bolt for me, so I think I am going to send it to him. I will be sure to let everyone know how things turn out. Thanks for your help up to this point.

    mondoatx
    Tuna is the man for these sorts of things. It sounds like he already has your business, but I can never recommend him enough. Tuna is one of the pillars of the Automag community.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mondoatx View Post
    I am using an old school revolution hopper
    come on dude, those only do 10 bps max. get a spire or rotor on that thing.

  30. #30
    Agreed... the gun is a recent addition... will be getting a more appropriate hopper soon ;-)

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