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Thread: ** Official Level 10 Problems Thread **

  1. #1231
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontal
    After reading through the entire level 10 thread (41 pages), I found no one with this same problem-so I thought it necessitated a post. I have a minimag with a male stab reg, gas thru stock, remote, and 20 oz Co2. Level 10 works great for like 50 shots +/- 3 fps, beautiful but then the bolt stops fully cycling... kinda like when I degas the remote and fire until not enough gas is left in the lines for a full cycle. Have tried every possible combo of spring/carrier/shim it always happens. Was wondering what you guys thought? I think that it might have to do with the tank chilling but the stab shows consistent pressure and the gun reg isnt noticeably cold so liquid isnt jacking with my gun... just ran out of ideas.
    First, you need to determine if the problem is indeed bolt stick. When the gun stops firing, is the bolt staying forward? Can it be reset manually? If it is bolt stick, then you need to use the next larger carrier.

    Another possibility is a leak in the on-off top. It could be an intermittent leak which is why it is hard to notice. A leak here would prevent the bolt from resetting properly. It is possible that CO2 could exaggerate a flaw in the teflon on-off top o-ring while firing.

    Another possibility is a bad regulator seat o-ring. It could be making the regulator pin stick and preventing the gas from flowing into the front part of the valve.
    Except for the Automag in front, its usually the man behind the equipment that counts.

  2. #1232
    What I have tried is after using the largest carrier that doesnt leak and the problem arises, I did think to change to the next largest carrier, but leaking down the barrel occurs and then the gun simply wont cycle, after waiting for a few hours or simply swapping tanks the gun does in fact fire...until after about 50 shots. So in theory swapping out tanks every 50 or so shots I could play no problem. The bolt doesnt need to be manually reset it just seems to not be able to overcome the spring tension (any spring) after some of firing, eventually ceasing. I thought too it might both be the on/off and/or the the regulator, so I gave it a full inspection and the orings were fine nothing sticking, nothing damaged...replaced them to see what would happen, same problem occurs. Thinking that there might be valve trouble I swapped out the level X with the old school one and it worked very well and fired 1000+ rounds with no troubles, no leaks, +/- 7fps, ...no breaks... I feel confident that it is a problem with the level X but I just cant find one. I live at altitude (+6000 ft) could that have detrimental effects, as the level X needs such a high input pressure? In post #238 (page 8) a guy named Tankdriver ran into this same problem but there was no resolution posted. I have tried without dual regs, with (w/out) an x-chamber, without a remote, without the vert...nothing same problem.

  3. #1233
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontal
    ...leaking down the barrel occurs and then the gun simply wont cycle, after waiting for a few hours or simply swapping tanks the gun does in fact fire...until after about 50 shots.
    Have you removed all the shims? If not, then try it. Then use the shortest bolt spring to start.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontal
    The bolt doesnt need to be manually reset it just seems to not be able to overcome the spring tension (any spring) after some of firing, eventually ceasing.
    That means that the trigger has full pressure on it when you pull it and is not limp? If so, then the problem is definately a differential pressure problem (spring-carrier vs chamber pressure). Make sure the gun velocity is turned up to the proper level. Each heavier spring requires an increase in the velocity setting just to maintain the same velocity as before.


    Altitude should not affect the valve. There is only a tiny psi difference from sea level to the highest altitude on earth.

    Have you tried a different carrier o-ring? Try a new urethane o-ring. If you still have problems, try to find a buena o-ring of the same size and use it in the carrier. They aren't as stiff and will work more easily but they don't last as long.

  4. #1234
    I have tried with 0-5 shims-same problem, thinking the "short" spring might be too long I have tried with the original spring-same problem. The velocity has been adjusted throughout the range of the gun... any higher and I would have to play with the piston and pack (the gas might cut through the ball though). I have tried all three o-rings, I have tried silicone, teflon, flurosilicone, polyurethane, butyl, even neoprene. I haven't used NBR because it simply wont work for this application, Co2 has a an ambient temp of around -78C, NBR is only rated for like -20, maybe a little bit more but not enough. I have polished the surface where the plunger O-ring rides, thinking that it still might be the gun, same problem but talk about a sweet spot for the first 50 or so. Could the plunger spring be failing? Thanks for the input, it would seem not many techs frequent the forums anymore...

  5. #1235
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    I'm stumped. there must be something we are overlooking. Lets go through a check list.

    Check your sear for signs of wear. If there is any noticible wear on the sear tip (rounding or indent where bolt sits) then you need to replace it.

    When troubleshooting the level 10, always use no shims.

    Manually test fit your carrier and o-ring to make sure it slides freely on the bolt stem. There should be resistance but you shouldn't have to force it.

    Check that your gun body sists tight against the rail and the grip frame screw doesn't bottom out in the hole.

    Check that the valve is held tight against the rail and the field screw screw doesn't bottom out in the hole.

    Check that the rail bushing is in place where the field strip screw goes through the rail.

    Check that the trigger rod is the correct length. Should almost touch the back of the trigger when the gun is gassed up and the trigger is fully forward.

    Make sure you are using genuine AGD o-rings. There are some on the market that just don't work as well in the valve.

    Have you tried bypassing the stabilizer to see if maybe the cause?

    The short gold spring and original level 7 spring are the same one. Use the gold (short) spring for troubleshooting.

    Make sure you are using a stock AGD on-off assembly.

    Go through the check list. Make sure everything on the list is ok. Don't skip anything, even if you don't think it is the problem.

  6. #1236
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    One test. try dry firing your marker without a barrel and see what happens.
    A proud Canadian EH

  7. #1237
    Okay, this is how it goes... my checklist:

    1. Trigger sear has no signs of wear- tried different one-same problem.
    2. Trigger rod length about 1.0-1.3mm behind trigger.
    3. Field screw and body screw set to same torque-same.
    4. Body is flush against rail, bushing in place.
    5. *There is a slight gap between body and valve-about 0.3-0.5mm.
    6. On/off assembly meets all stock specs.
    7. All o-rings are AGD (except during test to see if they just had cheap materials).
    8. Barrel has no restriction on bolt. (have tried dry firing w/out barrel)-same.
    9. As before stated I have tried various gun set-ups-same.
    10. Used all three carrier o-rings-same.
    11. Used no shims/shortest spring for testing.
    12. Power tube has no damage, fully threaded.
    13. Carrier body oring fine, no damage. No flaws in carrier body.
    14. Bolt meets AGD specs, no damage, no flaws.
    15. Bolt freely moves over power tube.
    16. *Everything properly oiled, does Co2 effect Gold Cup viscosity?
    17. Co2 tank(s) filled to proper weight.
    18. Using 1.5 carrier, slides on freely over bolt stem w/ some resistance.
    19. No leaks from velocity adjustment/barrel.
    20. Marker fully charges.
    21. Marker fully cycles, without having to manually reset bolt.
    22. Velocity (when she shoots [after polishing]) is +/- 1 fps; 280fps.
    23. Plunger has full, free movement.
    24. Barrel properly tighened, and straight (no bolt rubbing).
    25. Remote used during testing-no liquid Co2 into the gun.
    26. When Stab is used, input is set to 900 psi.
    27. *Stab reads a little below 850psi input. High enough?
    28. Stab consistently reads the same pressure while firing and not.
    29. I am the guy who fixes/mods the markers, so I guess I am the "pro-shop".
    30. I am a college student w/ full access to many materials and equipment, so feel free to post ANY suggestion...hmm what else I dont know, post it and I will check.

    **My problem being, as a refresher, after about 50 shots the gun stops fully cycling eventually ceasing. Swapping tanks does fix the problem, only to have it come up again after about 50 shots.**

  8. #1238
    Join Date
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    Question lv 10 bolt stick or something?

    Hey guys, I've got micromag and just installed a lv10 last weekend. It worked well last week, using 1.5 carrier, short spring, 2 shims. No chops all day and I am a unstoppable shortstroker. Well I oiled the o-rings the night before playing this week and in the middle of two games my gun stopped firing. The first time I pulled the trigger a couple times, and it fired again. So after the game I oiled the carrier o-ring and went to play. Again it stopped firing, the trigger rod pushes the trigger out but it won't fire when I pull it. I didn't get to check if I could reset the bolt by pushing the bolt with my finger cuz I had already removed the air source. Am I experiencing bolt stick? or something else?

  9. #1239
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontal
    25. Remote used during testing-no liquid Co2 into the gun.
    26. When Stab is used, input is set to 900 psi.
    27. *Stab reads a little below 850psi input. High enough?
    28. Stab consistently reads the same pressure while firing and not.
    I must say, I am stumped with your problem. You seem to have all the bases covered. If the bolt is not getting enough pressure in the chamber to push the bolt, then there is a problem with the bolt sticking or the regulator is not allowing a full chamber fill. All the bases have been covered with the level 10. Try changing parts in the regulation end.

    Did you try it without the stabizer. CO2 pressure is ~850psi from the tank. You should have the output of the stab set to ~650. You should run the mag on the small spring if using the stab. That will give you an operating pressure of ~400 psi depending on your setup. Make sure there is at least 200psi pressure differential between the air sources/chambers and each of the regulators.

    Next, take the valve completely apart and replace each o-ring in the regualtor part. It probably isn't the on-off if the trigger is moving freely and there is pressure on the trigger.

  10. #1240
    Well problem fixed... after running through everything I have ever heard about a mag I came across something that was very odd, the dump chamber had a considerable amount of oil in it... who knows how it was trapped in there but sure enough it was there. I soaked up all the oil and gassed up the marker-1.5 carrier adjusted to 2 shims and fired 2000+ shots, it shot the exact same from the 1st to the last. Thanks for the help.

  11. #1241
    Quote Originally Posted by Stoble
    Hey guys, I've got micromag and just installed a lv10 last weekend. It worked well last week, using 1.5 carrier, short spring, 2 shims. No chops all day and I am a unstoppable shortstroker. Well I oiled the o-rings the night before playing this week and in the middle of two games my gun stopped firing. The first time I pulled the trigger a couple times, and it fired again. So after the game I oiled the carrier o-ring and went to play. Again it stopped firing, the trigger rod pushes the trigger out but it won't fire when I pull it. I didn't get to check if I could reset the bolt by pushing the bolt with my finger cuz I had already removed the air source. Am I experiencing bolt stick? or something else?
    You are in luck Stoble, you have on this last page every problem/solution set there is for a level 10.

  12. #1242

    lubing

    just a question... how do you lube with the level 10, if cant dry fire oil through the asa/quick disconnect ?????

    thanks

  13. #1243
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    Is this right?

    Correct me if I am wrong please. I just want to make certain my understand of the L-10 is correct.

    By adding shims, I am increasing the distance the bolt travels at low speed, thus decreasing the likelihood of breaking a ball, if the spring isn't changed.

    I am trying to get some rational reasoning behind all of the answers in this post and ensure that I really have some understanding of how this works...
    I went like this
    He went like this then like this then like this
    Now he shoots a Mag too...

    -JR

  14. #1244
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    Bolt piston broke from bolt. Help!

    I was playing paintball this weekend. I am shooting an automag with a Xvalve with a level 10 bolt. After playing a couple of games I went and shot my gun at the chrono table. All of sudden the gun started to leak air down the barrel just a little. I pulled the trigger a couple of times and then all of a sudden air was gushing out of the barrel. I turned off the gas and took apart the gun. When I slid the bolt off the power tube, I look down the inside of the bolt and the Piston Pin that was in the bolt was missing. I was wondering what the heck was going on. Then I looked down the power tube and there was that Piston Pin. It came apart from the inside of the bolt. I never had anything wrong with my gun. My gun shot like a dream. I am using the carrer 1.5 with 2 shims. I wonder if it was a defective bolt. This bolt worked fine up until now. I bought this bolt from AGD about a year ago. I want to send the bolt back to have them check it out and get it replaced with a new one. From what I was reading in the forums, this happens very,very,very rarely. Any Thoughts .. Please Help !!!!
    Thanks Darick M.

  15. #1245
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
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    My bolt is odd... I had it set fine and working, then I played a little, and I would notice that after play, the bolt would leak a little, as if it were not sealed all the way back. Tunaman tuned it after I tried, same result. Should I just lube it more? That's what I think, but I want your opinions first.

    -Cold

  16. #1246
    mine has the same problem but leaks at first then once i play it usually stops what the heck is wrong

  17. #1247
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    Quote Originally Posted by JRingold
    Correct me if I am wrong please....By adding shims, I am increasing the distance the bolt travels at low speed, thus decreasing the likelihood of breaking a ball, if the spring isn't changed.
    No. In order for the level 10 to work, the bolt must be able to stop when it hits an object, vent the air, and then reset itself to its starting position. Adding shims decreases the distance the bolt has to travel to expose the vent hole so it can vent air in the event of a misfire. Too many shims, and the vent hole becomes exposed while the bolt is in the ready position and leaks all the time.

  18. #1248
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    Quote Originally Posted by dmorrow30
    I look down the inside of the bolt and the Piston Pin that was in the bolt was missing. ... Then I looked down the power tube and there was that Piston Pin. It came apart from the inside of the bolt. ...From what I was reading in the forums, this happens very,very,very rarely. Any Thoughts .. Please Help !!!!
    Thanks Darick M.
    This is a rare occurance but it does happen. Contact AGD and they will resolve it. You can probably do it yourself if you want to. The bolt stem is pressfit into the bolt. Glue it in using a metal type loctite compound.

  19. #1249
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColdFuzion
    ... I would notice that after play, the bolt would leak a little, as if it were not sealed all the way back. Tunaman tuned it after I tried, same result. Should I just lube it more? That's what I think, but I want your opinions first.
    -Cold
    Lubing is a band-aid patch for leaks. Find the cause. Usually leaking is caused by a carrier that is too loose. Other causes include too many shims, a bad o-ring or a worn sear. If the gun is fairly new, it probably isn't the sear.

  20. #1250
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    alright so it leaks a little out the front, and when i pull the trigger back it still doesnt even fire. what do i do..????

  21. #1251
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    Quote Originally Posted by athomas
    No. In order for the level 10 to work, the bolt must be able to stop when it hits an object, vent the air, and then reset itself to its starting position. Adding shims decreases the distance the bolt has to travel to expose the vent hole so it can vent air in the event of a misfire. Too many shims, and the vent hole becomes exposed while the bolt is in the ready position and leaks all the time.
    Thank YOU!

    Am I correct in the end result; more shims = less chance of chopping paint?

  22. #1252
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    Quote Originally Posted by JRingold
    Am I correct in the end result; more shims = less chance of chopping paint?
    No. The bolt spring and chamber pressure are the determining factors whether you increase the chances of chopping paint or not. The shims only determine how far the bolt <b>has to go</b> before it can reset.

  23. #1253
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phantom_Mag
    alright so it leaks a little out the front, and when i pull the trigger back it still doesnt even fire. what do i do..????
    Remove the powertube shims. Use the short bolt spring until you get the setup working without leaks. See if the leak goes away. Check the tension of the carrier fit on the bolt stem. Use the largest carrier that doesn't leak. If the carrier is tight on the bolt stem and still leaks, change the o-ring. Increase the velocity until the gun cycles. Check your velocity to make sure it is below 300 fps.

  24. #1254
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    I had my mag shooting perfect, then after a nasty chop.. when I got everything together again it will no longer fire and it leaks badly out of the barrel.

    when I pull the trigger the leak stops.

  25. #1255
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    Clean everthing out. Clean the bolt and valve as well as the body of the gun. It is quite possible that you have a piece of ball devris lodged somewhere.

  26. #1256

    Unhappy New RT Custom ULE problem

    I am brand new with a Mag and have alot to learn. Please help if you can. This may not be a lvl 10 problem. I have just recieved my new RT ULE, x-valve, lvl 10, RPG Chimera 90* frame, Splinter rail, WGP Torpedo drop w/on-off. I have install all shims in the on/off. It will shoot 5 or 6 times, (dry, no barrel), and quit. If I remove the tank and release the pressure, then reinstall, it will shoot another 5 or 6 and stop again. I hope this is a simple fix. It has been sent back once already to be dialed in and it still isn't right.

    UPDATE.....It seems to be fixed!!! A quarter turn on the feild strip bolt was all it took. The aluminum rails have to be tightened down just right.
    Last edited by Pudmullet; 05-06-2005 at 06:55 PM.

  27. #1257
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    Apr 2003
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    2nd Shot falls short

    Hello....

    I just got back my repaired E-Mag from Airgun design. Besides fixing my problem they installed the Level 10 bolt. I was using my E-Mag today and it was working great about about 5 games. Then in the middle of the 6th game every other shot would just roll out of the barrel and fall short. Sometimes I would shoot once then stop and you could hear the air coming out. Not sure what to check first to fix the problem. Thanks for the help.

  28. #1258
    i figured out my problem...the bolt seating makes it touch the barrel and go a little cruced and leak, so i just push my barrel up and no more leak.....yasee, violence and science do mix

  29. #1259
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    i cant read through these posts to find out if anyone has the same problem i do...plz help.

    i had the lvlX installed professionally. at the same time my emag was cleaned and whatnot. but it hasnt rapid fired since. the lvlX stops on a pencil. and it'll shoot once or 2x a second but no faster or i hear a chuff as if there's a ball there i guess. i was using 2 shims and the carrier with one marking on it. the next to smallest i guess. smallest spring.

    i have used my medium spring with no shims and that had the same problem. i have cranked the velocity up on my small spring and that didnt help. i cant know the exact velocity cuz i dont have a velocity...thingy (i'm frustrated and cant be bothered with vocabulary)

    (i had to check my carrier size and...)
    NOW my freaking power tube tip won't screw on. WTF how do i even fix my lvlX if i cant screw it on. i'm upset.
    -durty

    *EDIT* got the freaking tip on. still upset emag wont rapid fire. why own an emag if it shoots slower than my classic did?

  30. #1260
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    durtysoufcraka:

    It is possible that something is sticking. It could be the regulator valve piston assembly or possibly the on-off assembly or the bolt stem. The bolt stem is easy to check for tension by moving it back and forth in the powertube. The on-off pin acn be checked by moving it back and forth in the on-off assembly. The regulator piston assembly is harder to check.

    What type of emag and valve do you have?

    Body type?
    valve type?
    New, never used level 10?

    Caudillo111: It is possible that your level 10 just needs to be broken in. During this time it needs lots of lubrication or you could move to the smaller spring to reduce the differential force on the bolt.

    Pudmullet: Your problem is probably not a level 10 issue. Don't put as many shims in your ULT. Too many shims allow the air to start moving through the on-off before the bolt is fully seated. This can cause bolt stick which will prevent the gun from resetting. If you can reset the bolt by pushing the bolt back manually, then this is your problem. If it still won't reset then the problem is with the on-off assembly or the the regulator valve piston assembly.

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