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Thread: ** Official Level 10 Problems Thread **

  1. #1741
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    Quote Originally Posted by sup909
    I just installed the LVL 10 on my Classic 68 after replacing the Piston assembly. I put it back together, gassed it up. I have no leaks, the bolt "clicks" under the pressure, I can feel the air against the trigger. However when I pull the trigger nothing happens.

    Any thoughts?

    EDIT: Ok I cranked up the velocity ALOT to where the screw is 1 turn from being all the way in. However there is a very slight leak out the back. It can't be the regulator piston assembly can it? That is brand new.

    Also I did the squeegee test and it only seemed to work when there was significant pressure to push against the bolt. I don't think a fragile ball will stop the bolt. Am I just paranoid here or should it be fairly easy to stop the bolt after this installation?

    So I have been able to fix the leak. I switched out the spring to a smaller one and the leak is gone. Yet another problem seems to have arisen however. The bolt fires fine when I don't have a hopper on the marker or any balls being fed. However, now when I feed ANY balls into the marker the bolt stops and fents as if it is anti-chopping. It will keep doing this trigger pull after trigger pull. I cannot get it to actually fire a ball. The bolt does reset.

    I have tried 0-3 shims in there. Don't know what to adjust or tweak now, any help?

  2. #1742
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    Quote Originally Posted by sup909
    The bolt fires fine when I don't have a hopper on the marker or any balls being fed. However, now when I feed ANY balls into the marker the bolt stops and fents as if it is anti-chopping. It will keep doing this trigger pull after trigger pull. I cannot get it to actually fire a ball. The bolt does reset.
    That means you don't have enough pressure to push the bolt forward with a ball in front of it. To fix this, all you need to do is increase the velocity setting. The fact that it vents and then resets when it does this means your level 10 is setup with the proper carrier and shims.
    Except for the Automag in front, its usually the man behind the equipment that counts.

  3. #1743
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    Quote Originally Posted by athomas
    That means you don't have enough pressure to push the bolt forward with a ball in front of it. To fix this, all you need to do is increase the velocity setting. The fact that it vents and then resets when it does this means your level 10 is setup with the proper carrier and shims.
    If you read the part where I quoted my own post above. The problem is that it then leaks out the back and I am near one turn to having the velocity screw all the way in. I seem to be stuck between a rock and a hard place. Putting in the smallest spring allowed me to turn back the velocity screw about a 1/4" turn to stop the leak, yet still fire.

  4. #1744
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    Quote Originally Posted by sup909
    If you read the part where I quoted my own post above. The problem is that it then leaks out the back and I am near one turn to having the velocity screw all the way in. I seem to be stuck between a rock and a hard place. Putting in the smallest spring allowed me to turn back the velocity screw about a 1/4" turn to stop the leak, yet still fire.
    That sounds like your regulator piston assembly is weak. Are you sure you have a new regulator piston assembly in there?

  5. #1745
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    Quote Originally Posted by athomas
    That sounds like your regulator piston assembly is weak. Are you sure you have a new regulator piston assembly in there?
    Yup, brand new. Order it two weeks ago. It is silver colored rather then the brass color the original one was. Would a larger carrier help with a new o-ring on it?

  6. #1746
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    Quote Originally Posted by sup909
    Yup, brand new. Order it two weeks ago. It is silver colored rather then the brass color the original one was. Would a larger carrier help with a new o-ring on it?
    If you can get a larger carrier on there, then definately do it. Always use the largest carrier that doesn't leak. Don't use any shims while doing this. Try a new white carrier oring just in case the old one has a blemish that is giving a false size setting, tricking you into using a carrier that is too tight. Make sure the bolt slide freely in the powertube.

    What kind of barrel are you using? Maybe it is off centered causing excessive friction.

  7. #1747

    SPEED PROBLEM - cannot turn up past 250 fps

    I just bought and installed the level 10 on my minimag with an AIR valve. The bolt is installed correctly (at least i think it is), but i cannot get it to fire any faster than 250 bps (i just had it chronoed as fast as i could turn it up). The shop did not know what the problem was but they told me that the bold had been installed correctly. I am using the shortest bolt spring. Any one else have this problem? I called the AGD tech line and they are closed and the message said they weren't open on fridays, and since i want to play this weekend with my new bolt, i figured this was the best place to turn. Anyone have any ideas?
    Thanks,
    JM

  8. #1748
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmcclung
    I just bought and installed the level 10 on my minimag with an AIR valve. The bolt is installed correctly (at least i think it is), but i cannot get it to fire any faster than 250 bps (i just had it chronoed as fast as i could turn it up). The shop did not know what the problem was but they told me that the bold had been installed correctly. I am using the shortest bolt spring. Any one else have this problem? I called the AGD tech line and they are closed and the message said they weren't open on fridays, and since i want to play this weekend with my new bolt, i figured this was the best place to turn. Anyone have any ideas?
    Thanks,
    JM
    Take the velocity adjuster cap off and put a couple of washers inside, then put it back on. This will allow you to increase your velocity setting. Hopefully, the older minimag regulator piston assembly will allow you to reach a high enough pressure without leaking out the back. It should be ok with the the short spring installed. If it does leak , you will need a new high pressure piston assembly.

    Edit: I read the other post that you wrote. If the velocity can't be turned up due to venting out the back, then you need a new regulator piston assembly. The new ones are set to a higher working pressure so they work better with the level 10 setups. If this is the case, don't worry about the washers. They only help if the velocity adjuster bottoms out before you reach a desired setting.
    Last edited by athomas; 04-11-2008 at 12:30 PM.

  9. #1749
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    Quote Originally Posted by athomas
    If you can get a larger carrier on there, then definately do it. Always use the largest carrier that doesn't leak. Don't use any shims while doing this. Try a new white carrier oring just in case the old one has a blemish that is giving a false size setting, tricking you into using a carrier that is too tight. Make sure the bolt slide freely in the powertube.

    What kind of barrel are you using? Maybe it is off centered causing excessive friction.

    I have attempted installing a larger carrier size. I have now experimented with carrier sizes 1.5-3.0 with no resolution to the problem. A 3.5 carrier leaks out the front, and with all of the other carriers the bolt vents regardless of if there is a ball in there or not.

    Have tried with multiple carrier o-rings and with a combination of 0-4 shims in all of the above carrier sizes.

    I am completely lost at this point. Am I going to have to send this in to AGD?

  10. #1750
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    Quote Originally Posted by sup909
    I have attempted installing a larger carrier size. I have now experimented with carrier sizes 1.5-3.0 with no resolution to the problem. A 3.5 carrier leaks out the front, and with all of the other carriers the bolt vents regardless of if there is a ball in there or not.

    Have tried with multiple carrier o-rings and with a combination of 0-4 shims in all of the above carrier sizes.

    I am completely lost at this point. Am I going to have to send this in to AGD?
    Start with a 2.0 carrier and a new carrier o-ring, fire ~1000 shots to break in the o-ring and use oil.
    As stated by athomas, then use the largest carrier that doesn't leak (use the broken-in o-ring in the new carrier).
    Don't use shims until you get it firing (and then only if you get bolt stick).
    Only finger-tighten the field strip screw.
    Tune without using a barrel in case your barrel is whacked.

    It will feel like a lot of force if you put the squeegie down the barrel, but not if you just stick it down the feed tube.

  11. #1751
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    Quote Originally Posted by secretweaponevan
    Start with a 2.0 carrier and a new carrier o-ring, fire ~1000 shots to break in the o-ring and use oil.
    As stated by athomas, then use the largest carrier that doesn't leak (use the broken-in o-ring in the new carrier).
    Don't use shims until you get it firing (and then only if you get bolt stick).
    Only finger-tighten the field strip screw.
    Tune without using a barrel in case your barrel is whacked.

    It will feel like a lot of force if you put the squeegie down the barrel, but not if you just stick it down the feed tube.
    Problem is it doesn't fire, it only vents.

  12. #1752
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    Quote Originally Posted by sup909
    Problem is it doesn't fire, it only vents.
    Out the barrel, from between the body and rail, or out the back?


    When I tuned my Level 10, it was a chuffing nightmare until after 1000 shots when I then put the broken in carrier o-ring on the correct carrier.

    Are you using HPA or CO2? Do you have a reg in between your air source and the valve? If an HPA tank, does it have a High Pressure reg on it (usually a red collar by the fill nipple) or a Low Pressure reg (blue)?

  13. #1753
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    Quote Originally Posted by sup909
    Problem is it doesn't fire, it only vents.
    You mean vents out the back?

    Check your sear for wear. It could be causing your bolt to be sitting too far forward to seal properly. It doesn't take much.

  14. #1754
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    Quote Originally Posted by athomas
    You mean vents out the back?

    Check your sear for wear. It could be causing your bolt to be sitting too far forward to seal properly. It doesn't take much.

    No, sorry. It vents as if it were anti-chopping. It isn't leaking. if I used a 3.0 or under carrier. 3.5 it does leak out the front.

  15. #1755
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    Quote Originally Posted by secretweaponevan
    Out the barrel, from between the body and rail, or out the back?


    When I tuned my Level 10, it was a chuffing nightmare until after 1000 shots when I then put the broken in carrier o-ring on the correct carrier.

    Are you using HPA or CO2? Do you have a reg in between your air source and the valve? If an HPA tank, does it have a High Pressure reg on it (usually a red collar by the fill nipple) or a Low Pressure reg (blue)?
    Air, no Reg, High pressure. I can try posting a video if that helps.

  16. #1756
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    Quote Originally Posted by sup909
    No, sorry. It vents as if it were anti-chopping. It isn't leaking. if I used a 3.0 or under carrier. 3.5 it does leak out the front.
    Either you aren't using lube, or your bolt spring is too strong for the velocity you are currently set at.
    You need to find a way to turn up your velocity or use a weaker bolt spring.
    Use the largest carrier that doesn't leak (3.0 sounds like your money shot).

    Quote Originally Posted by sup909
    Air, no Reg, High pressure. I can try posting a video if that helps.
    This would always be helpful.

  17. #1757
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    Quote Originally Posted by sup909
    No, sorry. It vents as if it were anti-chopping. It isn't leaking. if I used a 3.0 or under carrier. 3.5 it does leak out the front.
    3.0 does sound like your carrier. You need a higher velocity(pressure) setting to make the bolt cycle. Like secretweaponevan mentioned, you need to either increase your velocity setting using what you have now or reduce the spring tension (use a lighter spring).

  18. #1758
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    Quote Originally Posted by athomas
    3.0 does sound like your carrier. You need a higher velocity(pressure) setting to make the bolt cycle. Like secretweaponevan mentioned, you need to either increase your velocity setting using what you have now or reduce the spring tension (use a lighter spring).

    The entire thing is oiled, and I am using the shortest spring in the level 10 kit. As I mentioned in my previous posts, I am about one full turn from having the velocity screw all the way in. Another 1/4 turn up and the bolt leaks out the back.

  19. #1759
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    Quote Originally Posted by sup909
    The entire thing is oiled, and I am using the shortest spring in the level 10 kit. As I mentioned in my previous posts, I am about one full turn from having the velocity screw all the way in. Another 1/4 turn up and the bolt leaks out the back.
    Will it cycle without a barrel installed? List your exact configuration? Rail type, body type, grip frame, barrel, etc.

  20. #1760
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    Quote Originally Posted by athomas
    Will it cycle without a barrel installed? List your exact configuration? Rail type, body type, grip frame, barrel, etc.
    It is the "stock" everything as far as I know. It cycles with or without the barrel, but vents as if it is anti-chopping. The bolt does reset after each trigger pull. I am using Air 68/3000, full tank. Everything is installed correctly, I have checked a million times. It works fine with the Level 7.

    I think I will out a video up on youtube tomorrow and you can see the marker and the problem in action.

  21. #1761
    I just want to chime in a say i feel for you. I have never got mine to work right.

    -barry

  22. #1762
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    Quote Originally Posted by sup909
    It is the "stock" everything as far as I know. It cycles with or without the barrel, but vents as if it is anti-chopping. The bolt does reset after each trigger pull. I am using Air 68/3000, full tank. Everything is installed correctly, I have checked a million times. It works fine with the Level 7.

    I think I will out a video up on youtube tomorrow and you can see the marker and the problem in action.
    athomas, does this sound like a backed-out piston relief valve screw setting? I'm thinking that this would keep the operating pressure from reaching the proper levels. (I don't know if the newer pistons have the same internals as the originals.)

    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    sup909, are you using the stock Rear Velocity Adjuster? Is your spring pack in correctly? (I don't know what, if any, symptoms would occur from having it in backwards.
    The problem is almost definitely that the marker is not getting up to a high enough operating pressure. Either that or a mutant bolt spring which is very highly unlikely. You could always take an old bolt spring and start cutting it down a quarter coil at a time until you get the marker to cycle (put the cut end on the bolt first so the good end is sticking out) and then check the velocity.

    At least when you get her up and running you will know the level 10 inside and out!

  23. #1763
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    Quote Originally Posted by secretweaponevan
    athomas, does this sound like a backed-out piston relief valve screw setting? I'm thinking that this would keep the operating pressure from reaching the proper levels. (I don't know if the newer pistons have the same internals as the originals.)

    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    sup909, are you using the stock Rear Velocity Adjuster? Is your spring pack in correctly? (I don't know what, if any, symptoms would occur from having it in backwards.
    The problem is almost definitely that the marker is not getting up to a high enough operating pressure. Either that or a mutant bolt spring which is very highly unlikely. You could always take an old bolt spring and start cutting it down a quarter coil at a time until you get the marker to cycle (put the cut end on the bolt first so the good end is sticking out) and then check the velocity.

    At least when you get her up and running you will know the level 10 inside and out!
    Well I can only imagine that the spring has been rotated both ways simply due to the amount of times I have taken it in and out. The velocity screw adjuster is stock as far as I know. It requires an allen wrench. I think I will swap out an ASA and hoses from one of my other markers though now that you mentioned the pressure. I don't imagine that, that would be it, but may be there is a kink internally in the hose that I cannot see from the outside. Who knows, it is worth a try at this point.

  24. #1764
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    Quote Originally Posted by sup909
    Well I can only imagine that the spring has been rotated both ways simply due to the amount of times I have taken it in and out. The velocity screw adjuster is stock as far as I know. It requires an allen wrench. I think I will swap out an ASA and hoses from one of my other markers though now that you mentioned the pressure. I don't imagine that, that would be it, but may be there is a kink internally in the hose that I cannot see from the outside. Who knows, it is worth a try at this point.
    A kink wouldn't matter. It would only affect flow, not pressure. Wait for athomas to get back to you about the reg piston screw. He knows way more than I do.

  25. #1765
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    Quote Originally Posted by secretweaponevan
    athomas, does this sound like a backed-out piston relief valve screw setting? I'm thinking that this would keep the operating pressure from reaching the proper levels. (I don't know if the newer pistons have the same internals as the originals.)
    I don't think there is meant to be any user adjustable parts on the regulator piston assembly, unless they have changed them. It does sound very much like a faulty piston assembly though. Just because it isn't meant to be adjusted doesn't mean we can't adjust it though.


    sup909: You can make an adjustment to your reg piston assembly. Try it on the old one you took out first. Take the oring off. Heat the assembly to break the loctite bond. Then turn the hex screw clockwise. This will increase the overpressure setting and should allow you to operate the valve at a higher pressure than it will right now. You will probably have to hold the assembly in a vise. Be careful not to crush it out of round.

  26. #1766
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    Quote Originally Posted by athomas
    sup909: You can make an adjustment to your reg piston assembly. Try it on the old one you took out first. Take the oring off. Heat the assembly to break the loctite bond. Then turn the hex screw clockwise. This will increase the overpressure setting and should allow you to operate the valve at a higher pressure than it will right now. You will probably have to hold the assembly in a vise. Be careful not to crush it out of round.
    sup909: 3rd picture from the bottom here shows how to grip the piston in a vise with a towel.
    http://www.warpig.com/paintball/tech...ne/index.shtml

  27. #1767
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    Quote Originally Posted by athomas
    Heat the assembly to break the loctite bond. Then turn the hex screw clockwise. This will increase the overpressure setting and should allow you to operate the valve at a higher pressure than it will right now. You will probably have to hold the assembly in a vise. Be careful not to crush it out of round.
    I forgot to mention, don't use too much heat. It will damage the oring inside. Boiling water is probably enough. Heck, you may even be able to do it without heat, but it will definately be easier with it.

  28. #1768
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    Quote Originally Posted by athomas
    I forgot to mention, don't use too much heat. It will damage the oring inside. Boiling water is probably enough. Heck, you may even be able to do it without heat, but it will definately be easier with it.
    Hmm, we are beginning to dive into the realm of hacking that I am not 100% I am comfortable with. There is also the unfortunate fact that I live in an apartment and do not have access to work tools of that sort.

  29. #1769
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    Quote Originally Posted by sup909
    Hmm, we are beginning to dive into the realm of hacking that I am not 100% I am comfortable with. There is also the unfortunate fact that I live in an apartment and do not have access to work tools of that sort.
    Borrow a set of vise grips and an allen key.

  30. #1770
    I have an RT ULE mag w/ ULT. I've been using the gold spring because the medium spring does not want to work w/ any carrier/shim setup I put in.

    Anyway, gold spring, 1 shim, and 1.5 carrier (largest that does not leak) has been working the best, but is a little rough on paint. It has been chopping. I figured since the middle spring won't even work, I can try cutting down the longest spring. I cut it down so it is a little bit longer than the short and shorter than the middle spring to try to get it a little softer on paint. I shot with this spring and the same shim/carrier combo tonight and I chopped a ball. So I tried going down a carrier size because I read that you can really fine tune by going down a carrier while risking bolt stick (info from the level 10 disk). Now, my cut spring, 1 shim, 1.0 carrier is soft enough on paint, but I what will I risk by using a smaller carrier? I let it rest for about 30 minutes and when I shot again it didn't stick at all and I haven't experienced any bolt stick, but I want to check if this is my only option and if there's a problem with it. I feel like I should be able to get the middle spring in there somehow because right now when I do, every other shot is good, but the inbetween shots don't reset fully and are just little half attempts at a shot. Help would be greatly appreciated.

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