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Thread: ** Official Level 10 Problems Thread **

  1. #1771
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by commando7
    I have an RT ULE mag w/ ULT. I've been using the gold spring because the medium spring does not want to work w/ any carrier/shim setup I put in.

    Anyway, gold spring, 1 shim, and 1.5 carrier (largest that does not leak) has been working the best, but is a little rough on paint. It has been chopping. I figured since the middle spring won't even work, I can try cutting down the longest spring. I cut it down so it is a little bit longer than the short and shorter than the middle spring to try to get it a little softer on paint. I shot with this spring and the same shim/carrier combo tonight and I chopped a ball. So I tried going down a carrier size because I read that you can really fine tune by going down a carrier while risking bolt stick (info from the level 10 disk). Now, my cut spring, 1 shim, 1.0 carrier is soft enough on paint, but I what will I risk by using a smaller carrier? I let it rest for about 30 minutes and when I shot again it didn't stick at all and I haven't experienced any bolt stick, but I want to check if this is my only option and if there's a problem with it. I feel like I should be able to get the middle spring in there somehow because right now when I do, every other shot is good, but the inbetween shots don't reset fully and are just little half attempts at a shot. Help would be greatly appreciated.
    All you are risking is bolt stick.

    By "a little rough on paint" with the short spring, do you mean you were chopping? If so, was the paint brittle?
    Your best spring setup will be the spring that allows the marker to cycle fully within 20fps below your desired velocity, so trimming your longest spring sounds like your solution.

  2. #1772
    Quote Originally Posted by secretweaponevan
    All you are risking is bolt stick.

    By "a little rough on paint" with the short spring, do you mean you were chopping? If so, was the paint brittle?
    Your best spring setup will be the spring that allows the marker to cycle fully within 20fps below your desired velocity, so trimming your longest spring sounds like your solution.
    Okay, I just want to make sure that was the way to go. It's not sticking so I shouldn't have any velocity problems or efficiency problems playing with that way, correct?

  3. #1773
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Ashland, MA
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    114

    Question LX10 help

    I installed my level 10 last year and I thought I got it working properly and set it aside. I haven't played with it in a game since yesterday. I Shot a few test rounds and it was fine, at the field when I shot it the bolt kept sticking and wouldn't shoot. I oiled it all up and it seemed to work fine for the rest of the day. After awhile though the bolt started sticking again and it would drop paint out of the end of the barrel. I cleaned it that night and aired it up and it leaked out the barrel real bad, it would stop if I pushed in on the barrel. I put in the next smaller carrier and it stopped the leak, but I am worried that it might be too tight, the other one wasn't loose, but was barley on the end of the bolt. Also what should my lowest PSI for operation be, I thought I remember it being real low on mags, but it was short stroking and runnign out of air around 800psi, is that normal for a LX10 valve. I was getting furstrated and almost debating ptting the LX7 back on, so any information would e great.
    68 Classic Mag with power feed body, lightning drop, CP black on/off ASA, groved trigger intelli frame wired to 12v revy, 12" DYE SS, 14" or 17" Stone Cold II, VA, Black Ice Reg, SS Lines, PT Exteme Side Arm, Spyder Compact w/ too much stuff to list.


  4. #1774
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    Quote Originally Posted by commando7
    Okay, I just want to make sure that was the way to go. It's not sticking so I shouldn't have any velocity problems or efficiency problems playing with that way, correct?
    You'll be fine, as long as you keep her oiled. You might need to oil mid-day if you have it tuned at the threshold.

  5. #1775
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    Sep 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poon985
    I...
    I answered your post in the main body of the tech forum before seeing it here.

  6. #1776
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    Halifax, N.S., Canada
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    Quote Originally Posted by commando7
    I have an RT ULE mag w/ ULT. I've been using the gold spring because the medium spring does not want to work w/ any carrier/shim setup I put in.

    Anyway, gold spring, 1 shim, and 1.5 carrier (largest that does not leak) has been working the best, but is a little rough on paint. It has been chopping. I figured since the middle spring won't even work, I can try cutting down the longest spring. I cut it down so it is a little bit longer than the short and shorter than the middle spring to try to get it a little softer on paint. I shot with this spring and the same shim/carrier combo tonight and I chopped a ball. So I tried going down a carrier size because I read that you can really fine tune by going down a carrier while risking bolt stick (info from the level 10 disk). Now, my cut spring, 1 shim, 1.0 carrier is soft enough on paint, but I what will I risk by using a smaller carrier? I let it rest for about 30 minutes and when I shot again it didn't stick at all and I haven't experienced any bolt stick, but I want to check if this is my only option and if there's a problem with it. I feel like I should be able to get the middle spring in there somehow because right now when I do, every other shot is good, but the inbetween shots don't reset fully and are just little half attempts at a shot. Help would be greatly appreciated.
    It was once thought that tightening up the carrier was a good way to fine tune the level 10 bolt, but it has since been found that you get more reliable operation by always using the largest carrier that doesn't leak. If you need to really fine tune the operation, then cutting down the longest spring is the best way to do that. Don't forget to remove the shims when checking for carrier leaks and operation. Once you get the mag running smoothly, then add shims to change how far the bolt has to travel before it vents air. Alot of us don't use any shims in our setups and have never had issues. You only need shims if the bolt stops on a breach blockage and won't vent to reset.

    If you crank the velocity up, you can't get the red middle spring to work?

    If the in between shots don't properly reset, then you need a larger carrier.
    Except for the Automag in front, its usually the man behind the equipment that counts.

  7. #1777
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    Halifax, N.S., Canada
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poon985
    I installed my level 10 last year and I thought I got it working properly and set it aside. I haven't played with it in a game since yesterday. I Shot a few test rounds and it was fine, at the field when I shot it the bolt kept sticking and wouldn't shoot. I oiled it all up and it seemed to work fine for the rest of the day. After awhile though the bolt started sticking again and it would drop paint out of the end of the barrel. I cleaned it that night and aired it up and it leaked out the barrel real bad, it would stop if I pushed in on the barrel. I put in the next smaller carrier and it stopped the leak, but I am worried that it might be too tight, the other one wasn't loose, but was barley on the end of the bolt. Also what should my lowest PSI for operation be, I thought I remember it being real low on mags, but it was short stroking and runnign out of air around 800psi, is that normal for a LX10 valve. I was getting furstrated and almost debating ptting the LX7 back on, so any information would e great.
    You are experiencing bolt stick. You need to go up a carrier size. Remove the shims when doing this to eliminate the chances of getting a shim induced leak that could be confused with a carrier leak.

    Some mags can have recharge problems below 800 psi depending on the regulator on the bottle. The real pressure may actually be below 800psi plus with air line restrictions, the air getting to the valve could be slowed down at the lower pressure output.

  8. #1778
    Quote Originally Posted by athomas
    It was once thought that tightening up the carrier was a good way to fine tune the level 10 bolt, but it has since been found that you get more reliable operation by always using the largest carrier that doesn't leak. If you need to really fine tune the operation, then cutting down the longest spring is the best way to do that. Don't forget to remove the shims when checking for carrier leaks and operation. Once you get the mag running smoothly, then add shims to change how far the bolt has to travel before it vents air. Alot of us don't use any shims in our setups and have never had issues. You only need shims if the bolt stops on a breach blockage and won't vent to reset.

    If you crank the velocity up, you can't get the red middle spring to work?

    If the in between shots don't properly reset, then you need a larger carrier.
    Okay, I have been working this afternoon to try to get the middle spring working. Every couple shots don't properly reset with 1.5 carrier, however the 2.0 carrier leaks. Suggestions? When I cut the long spring it came out only slightly longer than the short spring. My next move was gonna be to slowly start trimming my red spring down until it works and order another one in case I ever can use it.

  9. #1779
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    Quote Originally Posted by commando7
    Okay, I have been working this afternoon to try to get the middle spring working. Every couple shots don't properly reset with 1.5 carrier, however the 2.0 carrier leaks. Suggestions? When I cut the long spring it came out only slightly longer than the short spring. My next move was gonna be to slowly start trimming my red spring down until it works and order another one in case I ever can use it.
    1.5 carrier is the right size then.

    Doesn't properly reset after encountering a jam, or just won't reset?

    If won't reset after a jam, add a shim at a time until it resets reliably.

    If it just won't reset, it sounds like too weak a bolt spring for the velocity you are currently set at.

  10. #1780
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    Quote Originally Posted by commando7
    Okay, I have been working this afternoon to try to get the middle spring working. Every couple shots don't properly reset with 1.5 carrier, however the 2.0 carrier leaks. Suggestions? When I cut the long spring it came out only slightly longer than the short spring. My next move was gonna be to slowly start trimming my red spring down until it works and order another one in case I ever can use it.
    Leaking and resetting have nothing to do with the springs. Springs only allow you to fine tune the amount of antichop ability. They can compensate for a problem sometimes, but the problem will still be there. You are always best to fix the actual problem.

    If it vents but doesn't reset with the 1.5, then the carrier is too tight. If the 2.0 leaks, then there are other issues. Maybe the white carrier oring is defective, or maybe the sear is worn abit. A worn sear exhibits the same symptoms as too many shims, being that the bolt vent hole sits too close to the carrier oring which causes a leak under normal tightness.

    Are you sure all the problems are with the level 10 bolt and not the ULT? An improper tuned ULT can cause symptoms similar to those of the level 10.

    I wouldn't worry about shims at this time. Shims only correct problems arizing from a breach blockage that allows the bolt to move forward but not far enough to allow the bolt to vent the excessive chamber air and reset. You aren't getting a breach block without venting so shims won't correct your problem. If the bolt vents or coughs, you don't need shims.

  11. #1781
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Spring City, PA
    Posts
    208

    troubleshooting terminology

    Hey,

    I help alot of my teamates with their new Mags. (5 converts and counting)

    My question is about what to call 2 common issues that can occur.

    --The first is the bolt not resetting after a breach blockage.

    --The second is the gun is aired up, the trigger is pressurized when oulled, but the gun just won't fire.

    Which one of these is called bolt stick, and then what's the other one called? I'm getting tired of trying to figure out what my friends always mean.

    Thanks in advance,

    Jason

  12. #1782
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    Halifax, N.S., Canada
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    Quote Originally Posted by finnmanpa
    Hey,

    I help alot of my teamates with their new Mags. (5 converts and counting)

    My question is about what to call 2 common issues that can occur.

    --The first is the bolt not resetting after a breach blockage.

    --The second is the gun is aired up, the trigger is pressurized when oulled, but the gun just won't fire.

    Which one of these is called bolt stick, and then what's the other one called? I'm getting tired of trying to figure out what my friends always mean.

    Thanks in advance,

    Jason
    1st: If the bolt vents but doesn't reset, then that is bolt stick. If the bolt does not vent but does not reset to allow the sear to reset, then you need to add a shim or two. The latter rarely happens.

    2nd: This is just a lack of chamber pressure. There is no name for it. Turn up the velocity. Your operating velocity should be about 20fps above the lowest setting that the mag will fire. If that value is too high, then you need to use a lighter/shorter bolt spring to allow the mag chamber pressure to be set to a lower value.

  13. #1783
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
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    125
    Hey, my lvl10 is tuned pretty well (I can stick my finger or a rolled up piece of paper in there and it works), but it still feels like its a little too hard on paint. I haven't really had time to do the research yet, but do any of ya'll have any suggestions to make it a little easier on paint?

    Thanks.

  14. #1784
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elemental
    Hey, my lvl10 is tuned pretty well (I can stick my finger or a rolled up piece of paper in there and it works), but it still feels like its a little too hard on paint. I haven't really had time to do the research yet, but do any of ya'll have any suggestions to make it a little easier on paint?

    Thanks.
    If it works on a piece of paper, then it will protect your paint. The level 10 only works in the first 1/4" of movement. That is where the chop happens. If you hold something in the breach farther than 1/4" in front of the bolt, then it will hit hard.

    If you want to make the level 10 easier on paint, use the next stiffer bolt spring.

  15. #1785
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    niagara falls, CANADA
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    19

    stumped

    just got my micro back from AGD...it had :
    * ule trigger kit installed
    *x-valve with level 10 installed
    settings : x-valve: gold spring,carrier #1, 3 shims...
    ule: no shims

    problem is sometimes when gun fired...trigger goes dead and it looks like the bolt is not returning back all the way...if i look through the ball feed i can see the leading edge of the bolt sticking outward slightly.
    Now...is it a level 10 problem or ule problem?
    using a pure energy 3000 psi 48 cu tank..hoping to fix this on my own...live in canada and really dont wanta have to ship it back to roman

  16. #1786
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Halifax, N.S., Canada
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    Quote Originally Posted by jr50hockey
    just got my micro back from AGD...it had :
    * ule trigger kit installed
    *x-valve with level 10 installed
    settings : x-valve: gold spring,carrier #1, 3 shims...
    ule: no shims

    problem is sometimes when gun fired...trigger goes dead and it looks like the bolt is not returning back all the way...if i look through the ball feed i can see the leading edge of the bolt sticking outward slightly.
    Now...is it a level 10 problem or ule problem?
    using a pure energy 3000 psi 48 cu tank..hoping to fix this on my own...live in canada and really dont wanta have to ship it back to roman
    The fist thing to do is remove all the level 10 shims from the powertube. Then use the largest carrier that does not leak. Always use the same white powertube oring in each carrier that you try. Once you get that done, try firing your gun to see if the same thing happens. If it does, then you move onto the ULT setup.

    The problem with the micromags, is that the on-off pins are typically shorter than a regular mag on-off pin. On a typical retro mag, you use between 4 - 6 ULT shims. That translates to .020" to .030" of adjustment. Some micromag spacing differences cause the ULT to already have that much equivalent length added to the assembly, which is why it probably was shipped to you with no ULT shims installed. Once you get the level 10 tuned, play with the ULT. All you can do is add shims until you get a runaway effect. Then remove the 1 or two shims that caused it.

    The ULT shims are 0.005" thick. The level 10 shims are 0.010" thick. Don't get them mixed up.

  17. #1787
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
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    Under the big Skies of Texas
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    I have a PTP Micromag
    Inteli frame
    Retro valve
    LvL 10 bolt setup.

    I'm just looking for a step by step process on how to install the LVL 10. If I run into any problems I know I can ask in this thread- but for now I cant seem to find a "how to" on the LVL 10.





    Thanks
    Pep

  18. #1788
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Summerfield, FL
    Posts
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    Quote Originally Posted by pepper
    I have a PTP Micromag
    Inteli frame
    Retro valve
    LvL 10 bolt setup.

    I'm just looking for a step by step process on how to install the LVL 10. If I run into any problems I know I can ask in this thread- but for now I cant seem to find a "how to" on the LVL 10.





    Thanks
    Pep
    Up top of the forums.
    [RESOURCES ]
    [Level 10 Guide ]

    That and youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0mvr30jKhw

  19. #1789
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
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    Im glad it wasnt a snake, thanks man.

  20. #1790
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    Quote Originally Posted by pepper
    Im glad it wasnt a snake, thanks man.
    LOL!
    You're welcome.

  21. #1791
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Nova Scotia
    Posts
    19
    Ok, I am new to the lvl10, read a lot of the help thread, but didn't find anything.

    When I installed his bolt I made sure it was the proper sized carrier, and installed in the right order, no shims, red spring, and the pressure is cranked up, but it is still only moving about half way forward, chuffing and then returning back to the neutreal position. I have no idea what is happening, so if anyone has any ideas that would eb great.

  22. #1792
    raven add shims one at a time until it shoots consistently.

  23. #1793
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    Quote Originally Posted by ravenlord
    Ok, I am new to the lvl10, read a lot of the help thread, but didn't find anything.

    When I installed his bolt I made sure it was the proper sized carrier, and installed in the right order, no shims, red spring, and the pressure is cranked up, but it is still only moving about half way forward, chuffing and then returning back to the neutreal position. I have no idea what is happening, so if anyone has any ideas that would eb great.
    It sounds like you need more pressure. Have you tried increasing the velocity setting even more? Perhaps the bolt is fetching up on something such as a ball detent or a barrel that is not centered. What type of body are you using?

    Don't use any shims. Shims only shorten the distance that the bolt needs to move before it can vent air. You are already getting a chuff, so shims won't help.

    The fact that it is returning to the reset position would indicate that your carrier is sized correctly.

  24. #1794

    bolt won't reset after chop

    using 1.5 carrier and 2 shims and the bolt won't reset automatically after a simulated chop with my battle swab. suggestions??????

  25. #1795
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    Sep 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by stiffmeister
    using 1.5 carrier and 2 shims and the bolt won't reset automatically after a simulated chop with my battle swab. suggestions??????
    Add oil.
    Use largest carrier that doesn't leak.
    Add oil.
    Add shims until it resets reliably after it encounters a jam.

  26. #1796
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    Quote Originally Posted by stiffmeister
    using 1.5 carrier and 2 shims and the bolt won't reset automatically after a simulated chop with my battle swab. suggestions??????
    Always use the largest carrier that doesn't leak. When checking carrier sizes, don't use any shims. A shim leak can sometimes appear like a carrier leak and can cause you to use a carrier that is too tight.

    Adding shims shortens the distance that the bolt needs to travel before it can vent air and reset. If your setup is venting when it encounters a blockage, then you don't need any more shims. Only use extra shims if the bolt moves, then stops on a blockage, doesn't vent, but won't reset.

  27. #1797
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
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    Under the big Skies of Texas
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    I received my LvL last week. Iím a little confused- I have four carriers with an ID of
    .304
    .305
    .306
    .307

    I have triple checked my measurements and they donít match up with the info I have found on the net. Also two of my carriers have a single line and the other two have no lines. Any advice?

  28. #1798
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    Jan 2002
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    Halifax, N.S., Canada
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    Quote Originally Posted by pepper
    I received my LvL last week. Iím a little confused- I have four carriers with an ID of
    .304
    .305
    .306
    .307

    I have triple checked my measurements and they donít match up with the info I have found on the net. Also two of my carriers have a single line and the other two have no lines. Any advice?
    Check for dots on the carriers as well as rings. Each ring represents a 1. Each dot represents a 0.5. So, a carrier without a anything is a size zero. A carrier with a single ring is size 1. A carrier with a single ring and a dot is a size 1.5.

    If you have measured the id of the carrier, I would guess that the 0.304 is size 0, without any marks on it. 0.305 probably has a single dot and is size 0.5. 0.306 is probably a single ring and is size 1.0. 0.307 probably has a single ring and a dot and is size 1.5.

  29. #1799

    Tac-one fullauto issue

    Ok i'm new to all AGD guns, but i bought a tac-one new from AGD. When i got it it worked fine the first time i used it with the RT in it, so I installed the ULE kit after watching some online videos of how to do it. After that the gun would only do full auto no matter how many shims I installed on the ULE. So i put the RT back in and still always full auto. I called AGD and the man i spoke with was very helpful, and after about 30mins of differnt things he had me unscrew the regulator from the tube and move the Regulator seat o-ring from the seat to the grove in the regulator. I put the gun back together and it all worked great. Went out to use it the next weekend and agian full auto, so i moved the oring back to the regulator and it worked. It appeared that if i move the o-ring back to the regulator i can use the gun just fine but as soon as i ungas the marker i have to move that o-ring agian... that isn't normal right? I am gonna call AGD this week if i can't get it fixed this weekend. Thanks for any help guys.

  30. #1800
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
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    Quote Originally Posted by rexydog
    .... Went out to use it the next weekend and agian full auto, so i moved the oring back to the regulator and it worked. It appeared that if i move the o-ring back to the regulator i can use the gun just fine but as soon as i ungas the marker i have to move that o-ring agian... that isn't normal right? ..
    No, this is not normal. The regulator seat oring prevents the bottle pressure from getting into the the chamber. If this oring isn't working properly, you will probably experience air venting out the back due to overpressure in the chamber.

    Does the mag stop firing when holding the trigger after a shot? Make sure you have the rail bushing installed when you put the mag back together.

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