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Thread: ** Official Level 10 Problems Thread **

  1. #1831
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
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    Alhambra, CA
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    724

    sometimes bolt stick.

    I just put my emag together and adjusted the LVL 10 bolt with the Red spring. The gun shoots nice but at times I get bolt stick. Maybe when I turn the gun on and first shot is bolt stick and then after resetting it and I start firing no more bolt stick. Then occasionally I might get another after 20 shots. I am really not sure what is causing this. Can someone point me to the right direction?

  2. #1832
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
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    Try going to the next largest carrier. That should stop the bolt stick

  3. #1833
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    Jan 2002
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    Halifax, N.S., Canada
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    Quote Originally Posted by canadian_nibbles
    well i put the red one and cranked the velocity not sure exact FPS no chrony here. but i can crank it and crank it and it still feels to stiff with the red spring on ?
    What are you referring to when you mention "it feels stiff"?

    If you are referring to the impact force, you test that by holding something against the front of the bolt when you pull the trigger. If the object held in the breach is not held directly against the front of the bolt, then you could feel the full force and not the reduced level 10 effect.

    If you increased the velocity setting (chamber pressure) to the point that the gun starts to cycle, then the starting force of the bolt will not be that great because you have barely overcome the bolt spring force. That is how the level 10 works. Sometimes, if there is bolt stick due to a carrier that is too tight, then the force to start the bolt moving is greater than the force to keep the bolt moving. In that case you could feel a greater impact. Any instances of bolt stick like that can be fixed by using a larger carrier size.
    Except for the Automag in front, its usually the man behind the equipment that counts.

  4. #1834
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    Halifax, N.S., Canada
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    Quote Originally Posted by RavishingEddie
    I just put my emag together and adjusted the LVL 10 bolt with the Red spring. The gun shoots nice but at times I get bolt stick. Maybe when I turn the gun on and first shot is bolt stick and then after resetting it and I start firing no more bolt stick. Then occasionally I might get another after 20 shots. I am really not sure what is causing this. Can someone point me to the right direction?
    You are getting mild bolt stick. Try the next larger carrier size. Make sure you are not using any shims when doing this. You don't want to induce a shim leak because the vent hole is on the edge of the carrier oring.

  5. #1835
    Quote Originally Posted by athomas
    What are you referring to when you mention "it feels stiff"?

    If you are referring to the impact force, you test that by holding something against the front of the bolt when you pull the trigger. If the object held in the breach is not held directly against the front of the bolt, then you could feel the full force and not the reduced level 10 effect.

    If you increased the velocity setting (chamber pressure) to the point that the gun starts to cycle, then the starting force of the bolt will not be that great because you have barely overcome the bolt spring force. That is how the level 10 works. Sometimes, if there is bolt stick due to a carrier that is too tight, then the force to start the bolt moving is greater than the force to keep the bolt moving. In that case you could feel a greater impact. Any instances of bolt stick like that can be fixed by using a larger carrier size.
    I was referring to the spring how it fits on the bolt it takes a lot of force to get the spring on and off the bolt.so it seems like its too tight for it to even fire?

  6. #1836
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    Halifax, N.S., Canada
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    Quote Originally Posted by canadian_nibbles
    I was referring to the spring how it fits on the bolt it takes a lot of force to get the spring on and off the bolt.so it seems like its too tight for it to even fire?
    It is snug. As the spring compresses, the coils loosen. It should be fine.

  7. #1837

    Unhappy Lvl 10 Leak

    I just installed a level 10 bolt on my classic automag as recomended by instructions but with the small spring. I have no problems of it leaking near the assembly. I do have a problem with the velocity area leaking. In order to get the bolt to fire, I have to turn the velocity up and then it has no problems working. Upon turning the velocity up, it starts to leak through the velocity screw. If I turn it back down, the bolt wont fire.

    There is a fine line but if I turn the velocity screw down just a little, the bolt I guess you could say half fires. But there is no leak at the back of the gun.

    Any recomendations on what I may be doing wrong or missing?

  8. #1838
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
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    Halifax, N.S., Canada
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeaRiser2u
    I just installed a level 10 bolt on my classic automag as recomended by instructions but with the small spring. I have no problems of it leaking near the assembly. I do have a problem with the velocity area leaking. In order to get the bolt to fire, I have to turn the velocity up and then it has no problems working. Upon turning the velocity up, it starts to leak through the velocity screw. If I turn it back down, the bolt wont fire.

    There is a fine line but if I turn the velocity screw down just a little, the bolt I guess you could say half fires. But there is no leak at the back of the gun.

    Any recomendations on what I may be doing wrong or missing?
    You need a new higher pressure regulator piston assembly.

    The older assemblies were designed to work with the level 7 bolt system that operated at a lower pressure. The regulator piston assemblies were designed to release excess pressure to prevent excessively high velocities in the event of a regulator leak or failure. The newer level 10 bolt system works at a higher pressure that often exceeds the release pressure of the old regulator piston assemblies, such that it starts to leak as you reach the operating velocity.

  9. #1839

    Help

    trying to tune LVL 10 but I am on the lowest carrier and have two shims in but m y gun will not fire at all
    (I get pressure on the trigger but will not fire when I pull)

    I tried turning up the velocity, but the RVA feels stuck and I don't want to force it

    HELP!!!
    -Code

  10. #1840
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    Halifax, N.S., Canada
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    Quote Originally Posted by codejunkie
    trying to tune LVL 10 but I am on the lowest carrier and have two shims in but m y gun will not fire at all
    (I get pressure on the trigger but will not fire when I pull)

    I tried turning up the velocity, but the RVA feels stuck and I don't want to force it

    HELP!!!
    -Code
    You will need to increase the velocity setting to get the gun to fire after installing the level 10. The rear velocity adjuster may be stiff, but you won't hurt anything by applying a bit of force.


    Make sure you are using the largest carrier that doesn't leak. Remove the shims when testing.

  11. #1841
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    WI
    Posts
    20
    I have an air leak that I can't seem to get rid of...

    First let me go over my setup. This is an RT/Pro ULE w/ xvalve, level 10, ULT.
    This gun has been heavly used, its probably seen 100 cases of paint and at least that many more dry cycles. Im using the smallest level 10 carrier (no lines, no dots) because the larger ones all leak. Velocity is set at 280, tank output set to 950 psi.

    The last two times I played, I noticed a small leak coming from the level 10. Since the gun was still using all of the original orings, last night I decided to fully clean the gun and replace all of the orings in the gun an oil it up. Im pretty good at keeping this thing tuned, oiled, and clean. However, I still have the same leak. The gun still cycles great. It stops leaking if I hold the trigger down but starts again if I let go. I was using the small spring, so I tried the red one and am still getting the same leak (I cranked up the velocity to adjust for the red spring).

    My first thought was to check the sear and see if it was worn because pushing the sear forward in the grip frame (effectively pushing the sear up into the level 10 and the bolt backward) stops the leak. It looks fine, no real signs of wear (unlike my emag sear which is very worn and still works fine). This helped me visualize where the leak is coming from... The bolt is sitting too far forward and the vent hole is leaking on the carrier oring. To prove this, I put a .010 shim between the carrier and the plastic washer (the plastic washer I replaced last night too), to hold the carrier closer to the front of the gun. No more leak!

    This doesn't seem like a good fix... I don't like the idea of a shim resting against the carrier instead of the plastic washer, they have a larger ID and I'm afraid of what the carrier oring might do... Anyone have any suggestions? What am i missing?

    Edit: Rail bushing is in place. I also took the level 10 shims out, that didn't seem to make a difference at all.
    Last edited by TTCosmo; 09-02-2008 at 12:30 PM.

  12. #1842
    Join Date
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    Halifax, N.S., Canada
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    Quote Originally Posted by TTCosmo
    I have an air leak that I can't seem to get rid of...

    First let me go over my setup. This is an RT/Pro ULE w/ xvalve, level 10, ULT.
    This gun has been heavly used, its probably seen 100 cases of paint and at least that many more dry cycles. Im using the smallest level 10 carrier (no lines, no dots) because the larger ones all leak. Velocity is set at 280, tank output set to 950 psi.

    The last two times I played, I noticed a small leak coming from the level 10. Since the gun was still using all of the original orings, last night I decided to fully clean the gun and replace all of the orings in the gun an oil it up. Im pretty good at keeping this thing tuned, oiled, and clean. However, I still have the same leak. The gun still cycles great. It stops leaking if I hold the trigger down but starts again if I let go. I was using the small spring, so I tried the red one and am still getting the same leak (I cranked up the velocity to adjust for the red spring).

    My first thought was to check the sear and see if it was worn because pushing the sear forward in the grip frame (effectively pushing the sear up into the level 10 and the bolt backward) stops the leak. It looks fine, no real signs of wear (unlike my emag sear which is very worn and still works fine). This helped me visualize where the leak is coming from... The bolt is sitting too far forward and the vent hole is leaking on the carrier oring. To prove this, I put a .010 shim between the carrier and the plastic washer (the plastic washer I replaced last night too), to hold the carrier closer to the front of the gun. No more leak!

    This doesn't seem like a good fix... I don't like the idea of a shim resting against the carrier instead of the plastic washer, they have a larger ID and I'm afraid of what the carrier oring might do... Anyone have any suggestions? What am i missing?

    Edit: Rail bushing is in place. I also took the level 10 shims out, that didn't seem to make a difference at all.
    It does sound like your sear is worn. If the vent hole was sitting close to the carrier oring to start with, then wear on the sear tip would cause the leak, even if it was only a few thousands of an inch of wear. If you can see that there is wear, then it is probably a measurable amount. As many cycles as your mag has on it, it is probably time for a new sear.

  13. #1843
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    WI
    Posts
    20
    Quote Originally Posted by athomas
    It does sound like your sear is worn. If the vent hole was sitting close to the carrier oring to start with, then wear on the sear tip would cause the leak, even if it was only a few thousands of an inch of wear. If you can see that there is wear, then it is probably a measurable amount. As many cycles as your mag has on it, it is probably time for a new sear.

    Thanks, I'll see if i can dig up a new sear at my local airsmith and give that a try.

  14. #1844
    After I gas up my 'mag and leave it for a while I have to pull the trigger a couple time before it will fire.
    Normal? I hope not.
    Also one of my P.E. tanks doesn't reset the trigger properly when it's hooked up to the gun.

  15. #1845
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
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    Canada
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    846
    Quote Originally Posted by indecisive
    After I gas up my 'mag and leave it for a while I have to pull the trigger a couple time before it will fire.
    Normal? I hope not.
    Also one of my P.E. tanks doesn't reset the trigger properly when it's hooked up to the gun.

    About the trigger reset, try raising the velocity. What is the output pressure of the tank reg?

  16. #1846
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    Jan 2002
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    Halifax, N.S., Canada
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    Quote Originally Posted by indecisive
    After I gas up my 'mag and leave it for a while I have to pull the trigger a couple time before it will fire.
    Normal? I hope not.
    Also one of my P.E. tanks doesn't reset the trigger properly when it's hooked up to the gun.
    You are experiencing bolt stick. You need to use the next larger carrier size. Always use the same small white oring when changing carriers. Remove the level 10 shims when testing carrier size. You don't want to induce a shim leak which may seem like a carrier leak.

  17. #1847
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Mar Vista
    Posts
    73

    Level 10 bolt foamie

    The center tip of my bolt blew out mid game I guess... Are they replaceable like the old ANS foamie bolts? or am I buying a new complete Level 10 kit?

  18. #1848
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    Jan 2002
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    Halifax, N.S., Canada
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    Quote Originally Posted by CAT/J
    The center tip of my bolt blew out mid game I guess... Are they replaceable like the old ANS foamie bolts? or am I buying a new complete Level 10 kit?
    They are replaceable and use the same foamy as the old level 7 bolts. If you don't get it replaced right away, don't worry. The bolt will function fine without it.

  19. #1849
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    Oct 2006
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    Mar Vista
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    athomas

    Thanks a bunch...now I gotta find some foamies...And to be honest, with the foamie gone, it was allowing the balls to roll back(into the bolt face somewhat), causing constant feeding issues.

  20. #1850
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    Halifax, N.S., Canada
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    Quote Originally Posted by CAT/J
    Thanks a bunch...now I gotta find some foamies...And to be honest, with the foamie gone, it was allowing the balls to roll back(into the bolt face somewhat), causing constant feeding issues.
    That roll back is the same as every other bolt on the market that has the center drilled out. If you are having feed issues, it could be a problem elsewhere. If the balls roll back, it just means the next ball sits a bit lower into the breach. The bolt tip will make slight contact, but the starting velocity and impact force of the level 10 bolt won't hurt it. If you are getting "chuffs", then it is probably a level ten setup issue.

  21. #1851
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    Oct 2006
    Location
    Mar Vista
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    ...ya I'm also considering

    a loader malfunction. My Halo seemed to be giving an awful lot of 'jamming' warnings via the LED that was lit like a christmas tree. I'm attributing it to the loss of the foamie mostly, however...I was having to push the balls with my finger thru the power feed port.

  22. #1852
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    Quote Originally Posted by CAT/J
    a loader malfunction. My Halo seemed to be giving an awful lot of 'jamming' warnings via the LED that was lit like a christmas tree. I'm attributing it to the loss of the foamie mostly, however...I was having to push the balls with my finger thru the power feed port.
    No, the loss of foamy won't cause that problem. The balls still feed properly without the foamy. Since you have a level 7 powerfeed body, it is possible that you have one of the early non-parabolic feed plugs. Some of those caused feed issues. A Halo may put too much pressure on the flat "nonparabolic" section of the plug causing the balls to jam in the corner. Airgun Designs replaced all those plugs years ago but there are quite few older guns out there with that older style plug, mine included, although I had never used a halo on that body so I never had any issues.

  23. #1853
    So Last week i was having issues with a lvl 7 bolt chuffing at high rates of fire in Elec mode. It stoped after puting about a case of paint thru it. Was waiting for everything to be in perfect working order before I put in the lvl 10 bolt on the Emag. I replaced every O-ring and replaced the ON/off and the Regulator Valve Pin Assembly. So thats a little history on what I have done trying to fix that issue. But now its working great.

    So I installed the lvl 10 according to the detailed instructions on this website. In mech mode it fires fine. No leaking no chuffing. When I put in a something infront of the bolt it fires and resets fine. But in Elec mode at high rates of fires its pretty much chuff almost every shot if not every other shot. O and I turned the velocity all the way up. And it never leaked out the back like it said it would. I tried both of the longer springs and the gun would not cycle. But with my original short spring and the short spring with the lvl 10 bolt it would cycle both with the same issue with chuffing.So any Ideas?
    Last edited by tarthal; 11-22-2008 at 10:23 PM.

  24. #1854
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    Quote Originally Posted by tarthal
    So Last week i was having issues with a lvl 7 bolt chuffing at high rates of fire in Elec mode. It stoped after puting about a case of paint thru it. Was waiting for everything to be in perfect working order before I put in the lvl 10 bolt on the Emag. I replaced every O-ring and replaced the ON/off and the Regulator Valve Pin Assembly. So thats a little history on what I have done trying to fix that issue. But now its working great.

    So I installed the lvl 10 according to the detailed instructions on this website. In mech mode it fires fine. No leaking no chuffing. When I put in a something infront of the bolt it fires and resets fine. But in Elec mode at high rates of fires its pretty much chuff almost every shot if not every other shot. O and I turned the velocity all the way up. And it never leaked out the back like it said it would. I tried both of the longer springs and the gun would not cycle. But with my original short spring and the short spring with the lvl 10 bolt it would cycle both with the same issue with chuffing.So any Ideas?
    You mentioned replacing the on-off. Did you replace the pin? If so, did you install the correct 0.712" pin? The other causes of chuffing at high rates of fire is the bottle regulator's inability to keep up.

  25. #1855
    ye replaced the on/off and used the pin that came with it. When I ordered it from Tuna. Also my bottle worked with a lvl 7 bolt.

  26. #1856
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    Quote Originally Posted by tarthal
    ye replaced the on/off and used the pin that came with it. When I ordered it from Tuna. Also my bottle worked with a lvl 7 bolt.
    If it was a standard pin, then that's your problem. Use the original one from the emag.

  27. #1857
    dont know why cause it worked fine with a lvl 7 bolt. Pin length remained the same between the lvl 10 and lvl 7 bolt. Only differences is the gun gives me issues while the lvl 10 bolt.

  28. #1858
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    Quote Originally Posted by tarthal
    dont know why cause it worked fine with a lvl 7 bolt. Pin length remained the same between the lvl 10 and lvl 7 bolt. Only differences is the gun gives me issues while the lvl 10 bolt.
    Your problem could be an accumulation of problems. Make sure the pin is the short emag pin. You may also be getting minor bolt stick. Everything is probably working ok, except it is slowed down. A tiny bit of bolt stick would shorten the amount of time the valve has to recharge. Combine that with a longer on-off pin and you shorten the time even more. Under normal firing conditions it wouldn't be notice, but under rapid bursts the valve would starve for air.

    Check your pin length. It is probably ok if you ordered an emag pin with your assembly. I'd retune your level 10 setup and try to use the next larger carrier. Remove all shims when testing to make sure you don't get any leaking that is shim related rather than carrier related.

  29. #1859

    Leaking no matter what!

    I have a classic automag with a level 10 bolt that leaks no matter what I do. Leak stops when trigger is held down. I've changed all o-rings, used plenty of lube, removed all shims, and installed the smallest carrier with little effect. The leak persists, ranging from moderate to floodgate. What the hell is wrong with this thing?

    The level 10 carriers (all of them) fit very tightly into the power tube and must be pushed down to the bottom with considerable force (even when soaking in lube), as if it's hanging up on the powertube's threading. However, the carrier o-rings show no visible signs of damage when removed, but who knows.

    Any tips?

  30. #1860
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
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    Summerfield, FL
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghost flanker
    I have a classic automag with a level 10 bolt that leaks no matter what I do. Leak stops when trigger is held down. I've changed all o-rings, used plenty of lube, removed all shims, and installed the smallest carrier with little effect. The leak persists, ranging from moderate to floodgate. What the hell is wrong with this thing?

    The level 10 carriers (all of them) fit very tightly into the power tube and must be pushed down to the bottom with considerable force (even when soaking in lube), as if it's hanging up on the powertube's threading. However, the carrier o-rings show no visible signs of damage when removed, but who knows.

    Any tips?
    A fresh LVL 10 carrier o-ring will leak until broken in.
    Do this:

    Remove all LVL 10 shims.
    Pick 1 carrier o-ring and stick with it.
    Use oil.
    Use #2 carrier (2 lines, no dots, or largest one you have).
    Shoot 1000 shots to break in o-ring.
    Move broken-in o-ring to largest carrier that doesn't leak.
    Use red spring for 285 fps. Use longer spring for higher velocity or to be more gentle (fragile paint), shorter spring for lower velocity or to be less gentle (thicker shell).
    If bolt sticks after encountering a jam, add a shim.

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