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Thread: ** Official Level 10 Problems Thread **

  1. #1921
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crazy685
    Where can I buy a new oring for the powertube on a level 10? I recently just bought a RT valve with a level 10 installed and it leaks down the barrel. The guy I bought it from did say that it sat for a while, so it probably needs to be oiled and have the ring replaced.
    If there is any where on the sear of the gun you are installing the valve in, the bolt probably sits farther forward. This could cause leaking if there are shims installed and it allows the vent hole to be exposed.

    It probably just needs to be tuned. If the valve was tuned prior to you buying it, then it probably just sits in a different position from the setup it was tuned in. Remove all the shims from the powertube. If it still leaks, then tune it by using a smaller carrier size with the same white carrier oring.
    Except for the Automag in front, its usually the man behind the equipment that counts.

  2. #1922
    Ok so here is my possible issue. It may just be how my gun is meant to run but it seems a bit unusual based on what everyone online has voice/the instruction stuff. I have a Minimag body w/ a classic valve. I followed the in depth instructions after messing around without much progress for about an hour and they started from scratch... and what do you know... it worked... sort of. The best I have gotten it to work so far is between 0-1 Shims and the shortest(I believe the equivalent of the stock spring) Even with the shortest spring it seems like I have to shoot it what seems a bit hot(I don't have a chrono @ my house but I know it was chronoed w/ the stock spring last time I used it and it was set @ 290. In order to get it to fire properly w/ 1 shim and the stock spring I had to turn it up about and 1/8-1/4 turn to get it shooting solid. Now when I try to get work w/ the middle spring and 1 shim I end up needing to turn the pressure up until it starts to venting down the barrel and I can get it to shoot. My thought was that I need to trim my middle spring to about 1/2 way between the stock one and what it is @ now. If this could be a shim/carrier issue that I am overlooking please let me know. Thanks
    -Dan

  3. #1923
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danielkong916
    Ok so here is my possible issue. It may just be how my gun is meant to run but it seems a bit unusual based on what everyone online has voice/the instruction stuff. I have a Minimag body w/ a classic valve. I followed the in depth instructions after messing around without much progress for about an hour and they started from scratch... and what do you know... it worked... sort of. The best I have gotten it to work so far is between 0-1 Shims and the shortest(I believe the equivalent of the stock spring) Even with the shortest spring it seems like I have to shoot it what seems a bit hot(I don't have a chrono @ my house but I know it was chronoed w/ the stock spring last time I used it and it was set @ 290. In order to get it to fire properly w/ 1 shim and the stock spring I had to turn it up about and 1/8-1/4 turn to get it shooting solid. Now when I try to get work w/ the middle spring and 1 shim I end up needing to turn the pressure up until it starts to venting down the barrel and I can get it to shoot. My thought was that I need to trim my middle spring to about 1/2 way between the stock one and what it is @ now. If this could be a shim/carrier issue that I am overlooking please let me know. Thanks
    -Dan
    Bolt springs do not affect it venting down the barrel. If it is venting down the barrel, you have either a carrier that is too loose or too many shims installed. If it bolt sticks and vents, then your carrier is too tight.

    The first thing you need to do when tuning your level 10 bolt system is to remove all the powertube shims. That way you won't get any false leaks. The shims do not affect the operation of the mag. Shims only affect how far the bolt needs to move in order to vent air and reset if the marker attempts to fire but can't due to a breach blockage. If the marker fires and then bolt stick occurs, or if the gun missfires but the bolt vents air, then shims will not help. You need to install the largest carrier that does not allow air to leak out the front. Always use the same white carrier oring when changing carrier sizes. The carriers are used to tighten the inner diameter of the white oring which is why you always need to use the same oring.

    Bolt springs affect the operating range of the marker. The stock bolt spring allows the lowest velocity operation. The red spring is the next stiffest spring and requires higher chamber pressure to push the bolt, which is why it requires a higher velocity setting than the stock spring. The long grey spring is the stiffest. The bolt spring will not cause leaking but may not allow the marker to cycle within your desired velocity range. Ideally, your velocity setting should be about 20 fps above the lowest velocity setting that the marker will cycle at. This will allow a very consistent operation with very good anti-chop. Example; If the marker starts to cycle at 240 fps, then you should probably go to the next stiffer spring. If the marker does not start to cycle until 290 fps, then you should go to the next lighter spring.

    The powertube opening of the level 10 system is a bit smaller than that of the level 7 system. That means you will have to turn the velocity setting up a bit to maintain the same velocity even using the stock spring.

  4. #1924
    crazyjoe12 Guest
    could a damaged backing washer cause leaks? i have the 0 carrier in my rt valve with lvl 10 and it works without leaking but every few shots it will start leaking a little, ive tried all the different size carriers and all the other ones will leak all the time the 0 just a little sometimes. any help would be great, i have been trying to figure this out for weeks now i just dont know what the problem is ugh.

  5. #1925
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazyjoe12
    could a damaged backing washer cause leaks? i have the 0 carrier in my rt valve with lvl 10 and it works without leaking but every few shots it will start leaking a little, ive tried all the different size carriers and all the other ones will leak all the time the 0 just a little sometimes. any help would be great, i have been trying to figure this out for weeks now i just dont know what the problem is ugh.
    Have you tried changing the oring? If you have a bad oring, it could cause leaking with all carrier sizes. Make sure you remove all powertube shims when looking for leaks or checking carrier sizes. Another potential cause of leaking, if you have leaking without any shims installed, is if your sear is worn.

  6. #1926
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    I am suffering bolt stick and it wont reset, what can I do. I installed the level 10 with 1 shim and the carrier with the two grooves. No leakes, played four games and all of the sudden the trigger wont reset at all. I dont know what to do, please advice.

  7. #1927
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    Quote Originally Posted by trugz
    I am suffering bolt stick and it wont reset, what can I do. I installed the level 10 with 1 shim and the carrier with the two grooves. No leakes, played four games and all of the sudden the trigger wont reset at all. I dont know what to do, please advice.
    The carrier with two grooves is quite large. I am surprised you are getting bolt stick with that one. It could be a bad carrier oring. Have you tried changing orings and retuning?

  8. #1928
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    So I should change the white o ring or the black one that goes around the carrier on the outside? The carrier I am using only have one line around the whole outside. I am assuming that is the one with two lines counting the one where the o ring goes.

  9. #1929
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    Quote Originally Posted by trugz
    So I should change the white o ring or the black one that goes around the carrier on the outside? The carrier I am using only have one line around the whole outside. I am assuming that is the one with two lines counting the one where the o ring goes.
    Its the white oring that you change. However, since you are actually using the 1 ring carrier and not the 2 ring carrier, you need to change carrier sizes rather than the oring.

    When tuning the level 10, remove all powertube shims. Then install the largest carrier size that does not leak. Always use the same white carrier oring. The carriers squeeze the oring a bit, so the different size carriers put different tensions on the bolt stem when using the same oring. Once you get the proper size carrier, you can play with the bolt springs and shims.

  10. #1930
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    What are the sizes on the carriers, I have one with no marks, one with a dot, one with a dot and a line and one with a line. Which one is bigger, which one is smaller? Thanks.

  11. #1931
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    Quote Originally Posted by trugz
    What are the sizes on the carriers, I have one with no marks, one with a dot, one with a dot and a line and one with a line. Which one is bigger, which one is smaller? Thanks.
    Each dot represents 0.5. Each line represents 1. The size goes up as you add dots and/or lines. The size you have installed now is 1.0. You will need to use the 1.5 for your setup to work properly.

  12. #1932
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    First Shot Chuff

    All of a sudden, my tac-1 chuffs on the first shot, but shoots fine on subsequent shots made right after the first. I tried using the next larger carrier, but it leaked, so I went back the original carrier (the smallest one). I am using the red spring. I don't know what to try next. Thanks for the help.

  13. #1933
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    Quote Originally Posted by DBC
    All of a sudden, my tac-1 chuffs on the first shot, but shoots fine on subsequent shots made right after the first. I tried using the next larger carrier, but it leaked, so I went back the original carrier (the smallest one). I am using the red spring. I don't know what to try next. Thanks for the help.
    Sounds like very slight bolt stick.

    Did you remove the shims before you increased the carrier size? If you didn't, it is possible that the leak was due to the shims and not the increase in carrier size. This happens when the vent hole is right on the edge of the oring.

    Did your velocity setting change? If you had to decrease the velocity setting (not the actual velocity necessarily) due to the change of a barrel, then you may need to increase the velocity setting to get the gun to cycle properly. If the velocity is too high then you may need a shorter bolt spring to operate in your desired velocity range. If you have not made any adjustments to your velocity setting, then I'm betting this is not your problem.

  14. #1934
    So I just installed a lvl10 bolt and I'm kind of stumped. watched the video and can't seem to isolate the problem. I am new to automags but feel like i've troubleshooted pretty well. prior to installing the lvl10 bolt i had no leak down the barrel but was experiencing bolt stick (the trigger wasn't resetting) figured instead of buying spacers, i bought a level 10 kit.

    after installing the new bolt using the carrier w/ 2 lines and 2 shims to start with, I was originally getting no leak down the barrel but the gun wouldn't fire. the trigger reset but pulling it did nothing.

    took it apart and tried it again but now I am getting leak down the barrel with the trigger depressed or without. That would signify a problem with the regulator right? but the reg was working leak free before the level 10....

    all of this while its still not firing.

    please help!

  15. #1935
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    Sounds like your velocity is set too low. If you're pulling the trigger and it's pushing back, but not firing then that means there's not enough pressure in the valve chamber to push the bolt forward and fire. Crank in the velocity adjuster while pulling the trigger and see if it starts firing. Your leak also might be a result of the reg. pressure being too low. Often if it's too low it won't have enough pressure to seat the o-rings and you'll have a leak until you turn up the pressure/velocity.

    Give that a try and let me know.

  16. #1936
    Quote Originally Posted by BlackVCG
    Sounds like your velocity is set too low. If you're pulling the trigger and it's pushing back, but not firing then that means there's not enough pressure in the valve chamber to push the bolt forward and fire. Crank in the velocity adjuster while pulling the trigger and see if it starts firing. Your leak also might be a result of the reg. pressure being too low. Often if it's too low it won't have enough pressure to seat the o-rings and you'll have a leak until you turn up the pressure/velocity.

    Give that a try and let me know.

    how much can I screw in the regulator? I know loosening it too much will cause it to leak but is there such thing as screwing it in too much? I'll try this tonight! thanks

  17. #1937
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    I'm trying to help him troubleshoot and the trigger is always resetting itself. I tried to getting it to fire meanwhile incrementally adjusting the velocity with no results. IIRC it just hissed out the back when I went far enough.

    Any other thoughts? It's been quite a while for myself.

  18. #1938
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    Quote Originally Posted by Major Ho
    I'm trying to help him troubleshoot and the trigger is always resetting itself. I tried to getting it to fire meanwhile incrementally adjusting the velocity with no results. IIRC it just hissed out the back when I went far enough.

    Any other thoughts? It's been quite a while for myself.
    i had the same thing when i installed my Level 10 and when i did get it to fire i had to crank the velocity up so high it was leaking out the back of the valve. Here's what was told to me.

    Worth noting i tried the fix suggested but haven't had any air to be able to test it and see if i am fully corrected.

    http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=246743

  19. #1939
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    Quote Originally Posted by jinhao
    how much can I screw in the regulator? I know loosening it too much will cause it to leak but is there such thing as screwing it in too much? I'll try this tonight! thanks
    You can turn in the reg till it bottoms out, there no such thing as too much. If your leaking out the back and still not fireing you'll have to purchase a new piston or perform a little maintenance as was said by Bigwooly. Just follow what I said in the link. If it doesn't fix your problem, you'll need to purchase a new piston. I'm going to see about making a video or just a picture show of how to do that maintenance at work tomorrow if were not too swamped and I'll get it on youtube for you all to see.
    Last edited by Ando; 11-13-2009 at 08:22 PM.

  20. #1940
    ok the regulator piston assembly's o-ring has scores on it which could be the reason why its leaking out the regulator nut. does the new reg piston assembly come with a new o-ring or should I buy a 4 pack of it?

  21. #1941
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    I don't know if it does. Try using your lvl 7 spring with the lvl 10. It should fire without having to adj the reg to much.

  22. #1942
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    Quote Originally Posted by jinhao
    So I just installed a lvl10 bolt and I'm kind of stumped. watched the video and can't seem to isolate the problem. I am new to automags but feel like i've troubleshooted pretty well. prior to installing the lvl10 bolt i had no leak down the barrel but was experiencing bolt stick (the trigger wasn't resetting) figured instead of buying spacers, i bought a level 10 kit.

    after installing the new bolt using the carrier w/ 2 lines and 2 shims to start with, I was originally getting no leak down the barrel but the gun wouldn't fire. the trigger reset but pulling it did nothing.

    took it apart and tried it again but now I am getting leak down the barrel with the trigger depressed or without. That would signify a problem with the regulator right? but the reg was working leak free before the level 10....

    all of this while its still not firing.

    please help!
    First off, remove the level 10 shims when tuning your level 10. That way you won't get any false leaks. You can put the shims back in later if you wish. You will probably never need them.

    Start with the standard level 7 bolt spring (a new one). It will allow you operate the gun at its lowest velocity setting. When changing carrier sizes, always use the same white powertube oring. Its this oring that the carriers are adjusting. Use the largest carrier that does not leak. That means you install increasingly larger carriers until it starts leaking. Then go back to the one that didn't leak. Don't forget to increase your velocity/pressure setting. The level 10 operates at a higher chamber pressure so your previous level 7 settings may not allow the gun to fire. Because the gun operates at a higher pressure, you may exceed the pressure release threshold of the regulator piston assembly. If this happens, you will need to get one of the new higher pressure assemblies.

    Slight scoring on the regulator piston assembly shouldn't cause the leaks. It would leak all the time if it was the cause, not just when you increase the velocity. Generally, you will get a leak out the back when you increase the pressure past the safety release value. You will also get a leak when you back it off too far. There is a vent hole that allows air to pass once the piston oring is backed out past it.

  23. #1943
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    For the record I do believe it was ando who gave me the suggestion about taking the regulator assembly apart and turning the rubber piece in the bottom of it over. Well this worked and mine is now cycling just fine with the velocity cranked all the way up and with the Red Spring (middle one)

  24. #1944
    majorho had a spare regulator assembly so I stole its reg piston and swapped it with mine. no more leaking out the regulator anymore. I put it on with the lvl7 spring and it still won't fire. on/off pin still resets but nothing happens besides that. will using the older lvl7-tuned regulator piston cause it to not even fire at all? I cranked the regulator all the way in and it still doesn't fire.

    any other thoughts?

  25. #1945
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    Quote Originally Posted by jinhao
    majorho had a spare regulator assembly so I stole its reg piston and swapped it with mine. no more leaking out the regulator anymore. I put it on with the lvl7 spring and it still won't fire. on/off pin still resets but nothing happens besides that. will using the older lvl7-tuned regulator piston cause it to not even fire at all? I cranked the regulator all the way in and it still doesn't fire.

    any other thoughts?
    If the on-off pin is pushing down on the sear such that it is open and air is getting to the chamber, then it should fire. The only reason it wouldn't fire is if it had bolt stick due to a carrier that was way too tight.

    Remove the barrel when checking your operation just in case the barrel is off centered and causing excessive friction on the side of the bolt. This could also be true if the body pim was too long and bottoming out in the rail. Also make sure the rail bushing is in place.

  26. #1946
    not sure where the rail bushing is but would this be unique to the lvl10? the gun fired fine w/ a lvl7

  27. #1947
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    Quote Originally Posted by jinhao
    not sure where the rail bushing is but would this be unique to the lvl10? the gun fired fine w/ a lvl7
    It probably isn't the problem, but something to check if you had the gun apart. The rail bushing goes in the rail where the rear field strip screw is. If it is missing, the valve could be out of place and it won't fire properly.

  28. #1948
    Sort of a level 10 problem I think. I just got a ult and tried to install it but after a few shots the marker would just start venting air down the barrel, so after toying with that for a good hour I decied to switch back to the old RT on/off and see if it that worked.

    I gassed up the marker an pulled the trigger once and it fired like 3 times before the bolt got stuck in halfway into the chamber and the marker started venting again. I also oiled it before the tests

    Any ideas are much appreciated
    Code

  29. #1949
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    Did you try it shooting it again with the stock on/off? Might have just been a fluke if the marker was shooting fine before. If it's still sticking.

    1. More OIL!!! Toss a few more drops in the fitting (i prefer topping off the fitting) attached to the valve itself. If you put in your asa or whatever you have, it tends to thin out before it gets to the valve.

    2. Install a new/different bolt spring. A weak spring will sometimes do that.

    3. How many Lvl X shims you have installed? Try removing 1 and sally forth then repeat again if still doing it.

    Get the lvl 10 working with the stock on/off before tinkering with the ULT.

    EDIT:

    On/off Orings are good right?

  30. #1950
    Quote Originally Posted by Ando
    Did you try it shooting it again with the stock on/off? Might have just been a fluke if the marker was shooting fine before. If it's still sticking.

    1. More OIL!!! Toss a few more drops in the fitting (i prefer topping off the fitting) attached to the valve itself. If you put in your asa or whatever you have, it tends to thin out before it gets to the valve.

    2. Install a new/different bolt spring. A weak spring will sometimes do that.

    3. How many Lvl X shims you have installed? Try removing 1 and sally forth then repeat again if still doing it.

    Get the lvl 10 working with the stock on/off before tinkering with the ULT.

    EDIT:

    On/off Orings are good right?
    Ya they look fine, and I have 2 shims

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