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Thread: ** Official Level 10 Problems Thread **

  1. #2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soonersdds
    OK first off here is the setup, classic valve, HPA preset at 850 psi. I went to install the level 10 bolt on my mag and started off with the shortest spring in the kit, 1.5 carrier and 2 shims, of course lots of oil. Gun shoots consistently at 285 fps, no leaks, and bolt re-sets with no sticking. Shot a case of paint through it with no problems.

    So of course I get greedy and try to use the red spring since i hear it is even softer on paint, install it with the same setup described above, gun won't shoot, turn up pressure (which uses nearly all the threading on the nut) till it does start to shoot but the gun chronos at 385 fps and is leaking out the back only. If I turn the screw down a little to stop the leak out the back the gun will not shoot.

    Should I just stick with the short spring setup that worked fine, will I not be able to use the red spring, or will the new reg piston pack on the website solve this and allow me to shoot the red spring consistently at a velocity of 285-295? Thanks in advance for the help.
    It sounds like the short spring is the one that works for your setup. What is the lowest velocity that the gun will shoot at while using the short spring? This will give you a good indication of how it is working. For optimum performance, the operating velocity should be set at about 20fps above the lowest value where it starts cycling.

    The higher pressure that causes the velocity to be over 300 fps could be a result of the barrel that you are using. A new spring pack doesn't change the pressure that it takes to move the bolt forward, so that won't help you.
    Except for the Automag in front, its usually the man behind the equipment that counts.

  2. #2012
    Thanks for the quick reply, the gun starts firing reliably at ab 255-260 with the short spring so that sounds ab right.

  3. #2013
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soonersdds
    Thanks for the quick reply, the gun starts firing reliably at ab 255-260 with the short spring so that sounds ab right.
    Yes, it definately looks like the short spring is the one for your setup.

  4. #2014
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    Hello Gentilmen (and possible ladies)
    So today I would like to question on how to make my level 10 more sensitive. I have been running my Tac one ( Xvalve + Level 10) for 2 years now. and yesterday something happened which has neven happened before.

    I chopped paint.
    I chopped Fresh tournament grade paint. on a mild weather day.

    So right now im using the Gold spring ( 250 FPS and below) BUT I am using it at about 270 FPS ( field limit is 280 but I leave a little more room due to usually I can find a few renters so I dont want to hit them to hard)

    So naturaly I first tried switching to the Red spring ( 265 to 280 FPS) but dispite increaseing the velocity I always got a bad case of the bolt stick ( the bolt would move forward but not reset) and the only way I got it to stop sticking was put it at about 290 FPS ( above field limit) and the silver spring is out of question.

    Also yesterday something slightly strange happened, I would notice a leak down the power tube ( when trigger was released) would occur If I left the marker without shooting for a few minutes ( like a developing leak) but when I shot it the leak would dis-appear for a few minutes ( which was fine As I was shooting during the game)

    Would I need to go up a carrier size to increase sensitivity on the Level ten, but at the same time shim it to death to try and stop the devleoping leak? Or would I need to change Orings?

    Also, I forgot how the Carriers sizing goes, is it one dot being smallest and 2 dots being largest, going "1 Dot, 2 dash Dash, 3 Dot dash, 4 Dot, dot."

    thank you for your time in advance, any questions I will try to answer.

    Edit: Found the Carrier sizing chart, so there is 8 carriers and I only own 4 lol. guess I'll make due.

    Also re-read the Valve tuning guides, they state that if it leaks down the barrel and I slighty push on it if the tone changes then I must move down a carrier size, and if it leaks afterwards then remove shims.

    Any opinions from you guys?
    Last edited by Mime; 07-19-2010 at 12:10 PM.

  5. #2015
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    I would just replace your PT oring and re-tune the lvl 10. The current oring is probably on it's way out the door. That should also fix your bolt sticking with the red spring if done correctly. The lvl 10 kits don't come with the 9 carriers anymore. Reason being is the oring tolerances have gotten way better. The carriers you have should be all you need.

    The longer the spring, the easier it is on paint. I have all red springs (a few gray cut to red spring lengths) in my mags.


    Just remember when tuning, remove all your lvl 10 shims and use the same carrier oring when switching out to the next size.

    And....oil is your friend.

  6. #2016
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mime
    Hello Gentilmen (and possible ladies)
    So today I would like to question on how to make my level 10 more sensitive. I have been running my Tac one ( Xvalve + Level 10) for 2 years now. and yesterday something happened which has neven happened before.

    I chopped paint.
    I chopped Fresh tournament grade paint. on a mild weather day.

    So right now im using the Gold spring ( 250 FPS and below) BUT I am using it at about 270 FPS ( field limit is 280 but I leave a little more room due to usually I can find a few renters so I dont want to hit them to hard)

    So naturaly I first tried switching to the Red spring ( 265 to 280 FPS) but dispite increaseing the velocity I always got a bad case of the bolt stick ( the bolt would move forward but not reset) and the only way I got it to stop sticking was put it at about 290 FPS ( above field limit) and the silver spring is out of question.

    Also yesterday something slightly strange happened, I would notice a leak down the power tube ( when trigger was released) would occur If I left the marker without shooting for a few minutes ( like a developing leak) but when I shot it the leak would dis-appear for a few minutes ( which was fine As I was shooting during the game)

    Would I need to go up a carrier size to increase sensitivity on the Level ten, but at the same time shim it to death to try and stop the devleoping leak? Or would I need to change Orings?

    Also, I forgot how the Carriers sizing goes, is it one dot being smallest and 2 dots being largest, going "1 Dot, 2 dash Dash, 3 Dot dash, 4 Dot, dot."

    thank you for your time in advance, any questions I will try to answer.

    Edit: Found the Carrier sizing chart, so there is 8 carriers and I only own 4 lol. guess I'll make due.

    Also re-read the Valve tuning guides, they state that if it leaks down the barrel and I slighty push on it if the tone changes then I must move down a carrier size, and if it leaks afterwards then remove shims.

    Any opinions from you guys?
    It is possible that your bolt spring is worn out. They are a consumable item and need to be replaced from time to time, especially if you have fired lots of paint or dry fires.

    Sensitivity is totally controlled by the bolt springs. For proper sensitivity, check the lowest velocity setting that the gun will cycle. You should be operating at about 20fps above that value. For 270 fps, if the mag starts cycling at 230fps with the gold spring, then you should possibly go to the stiffer red spring. If the red spring starts cycling above 255fps, then go with the gold spring.

    Bolt stick is almost always caused by a carrier that is too tight, but can also occur if the bolt spring is worn out, as mentioned earlier. The reason it worked at the higher velocity was that it dumped more air on the forward stroke making it easier for the weaker bolt spring to reset it.

    The carrier does get worn inside as it gets older. They do usually continue to work. although sometimes you need to drop a 1/2 carrier size from when they are new.

    The first thing you want to do when tuning or troubleshooting a level 10 bolt is to remove the shims. They do not affect the operation of the bolt. The biggest thing that can cause leaks are the shims. If the bolt stem vent hole is close to the carrier oring, any wear at all in the oring or on the tip of the sear will cause a leak. They only affect how far it needs to move in order for air to vent out through the vent hole. If the bolt cycles or chuffs in any way, then shims will do nothing to help. Quite often people end up using a carrier size that is too tight in order to compensate for a shim that puts the carrier oring too close to the vent hole.

    You should probably only need carrier sizes from 0.5 to 2.0. The other larger ones are only for extreme circumstances if you are experimenting and need to use orings that are not standard sizes or are out of spec.

    If you are not using any shims and are using the largest carrier that does not leak and also are using the gold spring, and it gets bolt stick, then change the oring. Other than that, always use the same oring. A smooth, broken in oring, that is free of dirt, provides the best seal.

  7. #2017
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    Athomas: Thank you very much, but I dont think its wear on the bolt spring. I would say I have less then 40,000 Shots going through my automag. (18 - 20 cases seems about where i'm at)

    I'll try removing all the shims, then moving up one carrier size. I'll also Inspect the O-ring to make sure it hasn't started to tear or flake.

    As for sensitivity i'll have to get to a chrono for that, So let me get this striaght, ( hopefully my engish reading skills are up to par)

    For the sensitivity I want to be shooting as close as possible to 20 FPS above what that spring's lowest velocity will record.

    But in the event which my target FPS is 270, and the red spring cycles only at 255, ( thus my target will then be 275) I should just continue to use the gold spring?

    Or would it be more sensible to use the red spring and shoot 5 FPS under my maximum sensitivity rating.

    Edit: Just for curiousity's sake,
    If the bolt cycles forward but does not return it usually means: Carrier is to tight/wear on spring

    But what about when you pull the trigger and the bolt does not move forward at all?
    ( I'm assuming you then increase velocity untill it does fire)

    Edit Edit:

    Right so I added some air, Took apart the entire marker and started the cleaning.
    The O-ring in the carrier was a Wee bit dirty so I cleaned that to start, heres what I got

    Right now with the O-ring I have the 1.0 Carrier fits the best, the 1.5 carrier doesnt grab on the bolt at all so its to loose. BUT if I choose a different O-ring the 1.5 carrier then becomes the best fit. ( so think of it as the O-ring I have now is .5 smaller then the rest in my pack lol)

    Took out the shims totaly, I dont have a leak or anything so thats good.
    But do I still put back the two shims That I had in there? There is no leak down the Power tube. And no shims installed . leave it be?
    Last edited by Mime; 07-20-2010 at 11:24 AM. Reason: further questions for curiousity

  8. #2018
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mime
    For the sensitivity I want to be shooting as close as possible to 20 FPS above what that spring's lowest velocity will record.

    But in the event which my target FPS is 270, and the red spring cycles only at 255, ( thus my target will then be 275) I should just continue to use the gold spring?

    Or would it be more sensible to use the red spring and shoot 5 FPS under my maximum sensitivity rating.
    Just install the red spring. If it's used, make sure it isn't flushed with the bolt face. That would indicate the spring is worn and needs replacement. That goes for any main spring. Your going to feel a considerable difference between the gold and red spring when you trip the lvl 10 on say your finger (use something else besides your finger on the first pull, it freakin hurts if you don't install something right)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mime
    Edit: Just for curiousity's sake,
    If the bolt cycles forward but does not return it usually means: Carrier is to tight/wear on spring
    Correct
    Quote Originally Posted by Mime
    But what about when you pull the trigger and the bolt does not move forward at all?
    ( I'm assuming you then increase velocity untill it does fire)
    Again your assumption is correct. When going up to a stronger spring. It's going to take more pressure to get the valve to cycle. Just remember, if you go down in your spring, your going to be shooting HOT!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mime
    Edit Edit:

    Right so I added some air, Took apart the entire marker and started the cleaning.
    The O-ring in the carrier was a Wee bit dirty so I cleaned that to start, heres what I got

    Right now with the O-ring I have the 1.0 Carrier fits the best, the 1.5 carrier doesnt grab on the bolt at all so its to loose. BUT if I choose a different O-ring the 1.5 carrier then becomes the best fit. ( so think of it as the O-ring I have now is .5 smaller then the rest in my pack lol)
    That just means, unlike the spares you have, the current oring that fits the 1.0 carrier is broken in (which is a good thing). Eventually you'll have to go to a smaller carrier once that happens and it'll let you know when the time comes. It'll start leaking down the barrel.

    But if your still experiencing bolt stick with the old one, you might have to just replace it and re-tune the lvl 10 with a new oring.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mime
    Took out the shims totaly, I dont have a leak or anything so thats good.
    But do I still put back the two shims That I had in there? There is no leak down the Power tube. And no shims installed . leave it be?
    Only reason for the shims is to correct any resetting problems with the lvl 10 after it's been tripped. If it's resetting fine, then there's no need for the shims. Put them in your parts box and call it a day. After you've tripped the lvl 10, it should take no more then half a sec, if that to reset.
    Last edited by Ando; 07-20-2010 at 02:39 PM.

  9. #2019
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    Thank you very much Athomas and Ando. you two have tag teamed my questions well.
    If I ever see another automag user with some problems i'll be sure to let them know who to talk to.

  10. #2020
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mime
    Athomas: Thank you very much, but I dont think its wear on the bolt spring. I would say I have less then 40,000 Shots going through my automag. (18 - 20 cases seems about where i'm at)
    If you have this many shots on that spring, then it is probably worn out. The number of shots sounds about right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mime
    But in the event which my target FPS is 270, and the red spring cycles only at 255, ( thus my target will then be 275) I should just continue to use the gold spring?

    Or would it be more sensible to use the red spring and shoot 5 FPS under my maximum sensitivity rating.
    I would use the red spring at 5fps under (15fps above minimum). The 20fps is a guideline and gives a pretty good area to operate around, but it doesn't need to be a hard and fast number.

    It sounds like you have a good understanding on the rest of the questions and answers.

  11. #2021
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    just make sure the spring is taller than the bolt when it's in place. if the spring is flush or shorter than the bolt, it needs to be replaced. My X-valved mag is running the red spring right now . (medium)

  12. #2022

    Missing something??

    I just received my level 10 kit for my ReTroValve Micro and I realized my kit doesn't have the carrier with the two groves in it? Is this a AGD mistake or am I missing something? Can I compensate for this with different shim/spring setups??

    Thanks in advance

  13. #2023
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stingy Mcdingy
    I just received my level 10 kit for my ReTroValve Micro and I realized my kit doesn't have the carrier with the two groves in it? Is this a AGD mistake or am I missing something? Can I compensate for this with different shim/spring setups??

    Thanks in advance
    I think the kits only have the smaller sizes now, but I would have expected it to include the 2.0 size. You probably won't need that one. I have never needed larger than a 1.5. All my kits had carrier sizes up to 3.5, but they were early beta test kits, so I don't know what sizes the new kits come with. Tunaman would be a good person to ask that question to. He deals with them all the time.

    You can't compensate for any carrier with shims or springs. Always use the largest carrier that does not leak. Always test your setup without any shims installed. Always use the same powertube oring when changing carrier sizes. The carrier changes the inner diameter of the oring which changes the amount of force on the bolt stem. You want just enough force to seal the air without causing enough friction to stop the bolt from cycling properly.

  14. #2024
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ando
    The lvl 10 kits don't come with the 9 carriers anymore. Reason being is the oring tolerances have gotten way better. The carriers you have should be all you need.
    I posted this about 6-7 posts up. The new kits only come with 4 carriers now (I think been a while since I got one). There's no need for the others due to todays manufacturing of orings.

  15. #2025
    Quote Originally Posted by athomas
    I think the kits only have the smaller sizes now, but I would have expected it to include the 2.0 size. You probably won't need that one. I have never needed larger than a 1.5. All my kits had carrier sizes up to 3.5, but they were early beta test kits, so I don't know what sizes the new kits come with. Tunaman would be a good person to ask that question to. He deals with them all the time.

    You can't compensate for any carrier with shims or springs. Always use the largest carrier that does not leak. Always test your setup without any shims installed. Always use the same powertube oring when changing carrier sizes. The carrier changes the inner diameter of the oring which changes the amount of force on the bolt stem. You want just enough force to seal the air without causing enough friction to stop the bolt from cycling properly.

    Thanks I'll play around with it. At the moment I have no leaks but when pull the trigger i get no shot so i'm assuming there is too much friction so i'll play around with the shims/bolt setups.

    Thanks fellas

  16. #2026
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    You try upping your velocity?

  17. #2027
    Quote Originally Posted by Ando
    You try upping your velocity?
    Yea tried turning up the velocity but still no luck. It still wont even shoot. The trigger has resistance but still wont shoot. I'm thinking there is still too much friction for some reason. Still tinkering with the spring and shims ect..

  18. #2028
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stingy Mcdingy
    Yea tried turning up the velocity but still no luck. It still wont even shoot. The trigger has resistance but still wont shoot. I'm thinking there is still too much friction for some reason. Still tinkering with the spring and shims ect..
    Take the shims out when testing. They do nothing except cause the bolt stem vent hole to be too close to the carrier oring. This causes premature leaking which causes you to use a carrier size that is too tight for your setup. Using a tight carrier to stop a shim induced leak causes bolt stick.

    Are you using the bolt in a micro mag body? Sometimes the breach of a micro mag body is too tight for the level 10 bolt tip. Check that it actually slices freely in the breach. Do that without a valve installed by dropping it into the breach area without a bolt spring on the front. If you do find that it is tight, you can sand the outer edge of the tip until it moves freely. It doesn't take much.

  19. #2029
    Quote Originally Posted by athomas
    Take the shims out when testing. They do nothing except cause the bolt stem vent hole to be too close to the carrier oring. This causes premature leaking which causes you to use a carrier size that is too tight for your setup. Using a tight carrier to stop a shim induced leak causes bolt stick.

    Are you using the bolt in a micro mag body? Sometimes the breach of a micro mag body is too tight for the level 10 bolt tip. Check that it actually slices freely in the breach. Do that without a valve installed by dropping it into the breach area without a bolt spring on the front. If you do find that it is tight, you can sand the outer edge of the tip until it moves freely. It doesn't take much.

    Yes I am using the Micro body. I haven't thought about checking the new bolt fitment to the body. That is a good Idea I will check it when I get home to make sure that fits fine. I'll also try it without the shims.

    Just to clarify should I start with the largest carrier 1st or the smallest carrier?

  20. #2030
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stingy Mcdingy
    Yes I am using the Micro body. I haven't thought about checking the new bolt fitment to the body. That is a good Idea I will check it when I get home to make sure that fits fine. I'll also try it without the shims.

    Just to clarify should I start with the largest carrier 1st or the smallest carrier?
    Largest that doesn't leak. It'll take a few tries to get the right one.

  21. #2031
    Good morning guys,

    I've acquired an Automag Classic over the past year and I've fallen in love with it. Just last night I finally received the final piece of the puzzle to make my own perfect marker: the Level X bolt.

    I carefully read all the instructions and proceeded to build up the new bolt and such from the instructions and online videos. Sadly to say, none of the carriers work. I've been paintballing since I was 11 and consider myself pretty marker savy, but this has me stumped. I've read that I'm supposed to choose the carrier that is snug with the o-ring along the bolt rod (sorry for the improper usage of words, I'm pretty tired), and in the videos it appears that you can get one that is snug. None of the carriers allow me to make it remotely snug. I air the marker up and it begins to leak down the barrel, but stops when I pull and hold the trigger.

    **Update**

    I've tried all the carriers, even the one line and one dot, and went through all of the carrier-held o-rings they supplied me. It just seemed like none of them fit enough as described in the instructions; they all seemed pretty loose around the bolt rod no matter which carrier I used. Perhaps I got a bad batch.

    I tried all the carriers and added and subtracted shims; but was primarily shimless. I got the marker to actually shoot, but with air still leaking down the barrel and actually out the back near the velocity adjuster, which is also leaking now as well after I had messed with that too.

    I'm a bit stumped. I'll fasten everything down again and even call up AGD to see if I can get new o-rings expressed shipped. I really want to use my level X by this weekend!!

    Thanks for any help you can provide!

    Jake

  22. #2032
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    That's pretty strange that none of the carriers are working for you

    My only advice to you is maybe swelling the orings. Put a few in oil for a few days and try it out again. Make sure you have everything installed right too.

    As for your leak out the back. It's either you have the velocity up too high, bad piston o-ring or the piston itself. Classics usually leak due to the extra pressure needed to actuate the lvl 10. The older pistons can't handle the pressure. Just get a replacement when/if you order new lvl 10 orings.
    Last edited by Ando; 10-05-2010 at 08:42 AM.

  23. #2033
    Sounds good. Thanks for the advice.

    I'm calling them here shortly so I'll see if I can get those replacements shipped quickly.

    Hopefully I don't need a new piston as it only started to leak when I cranked the velocity way up. Grr, can anything be simple! Haha.

    Jake

  24. #2034
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    It's designed to leak if the velocity is up to high.

    One thing you can try out is installing the gold bolt spring on the lvl 10 (shortest one). It'll be a little rougher on the paint but will almost guarantee it not to leak out the back. Either way your going to need a new piston if you tend to use one of the longer bolt springs.

    EDIT:

    Don't use the long gray one. They tend to not work and give you the issues your having now and then some. The gray springs are mainly used for tweaking the lvl 10.

    If you have one, try the red bolt spring. It's the best one out of the bunch.

    If all you have is the short gold spring and long gray one. You can cut the gray spring down to create a spring the same length as the red spring.

    If you scroll up a few posts. Athomas gives a good explanation on how he cuts his. I've never tired it, I usually just put a gold and gray spring side to side, measure from the top of the gold spring to the top of the gray spring. Find the mid way point between the 2 tops and cut. It's never failed me yet.

    EDIT 2:

    If you do cut a spring. Make sure you place the cut end of the spring towards the bolt and the uncut end facing the breach of the body. That keeps the spring from digging into anything expensive.
    Last edited by Ando; 10-05-2010 at 09:05 AM.

  25. #2035
    Quote Originally Posted by Ando
    It's designed to leak if the velocity is up to high.

    One thing you can try out is installing the gold bolt spring on the lvl 10 (shortest one). It'll be a little rougher on the paint but will almost guarantee it not to leak out the back. Either way your going to need a new piston if you tend to use one of the longer bolt springs.

    EDIT:

    Don't use the long gray one. They tend to not work and give you the issues your having now and then some. The gray springs are mainly used for tweaking the lvl 10.

    If you have one, try the red bolt spring. It's the best one out of the bunch.

    If all you have is the short gold spring and long gray one. You can cut the gray spring down to create a spring the same length as the red spring.

    If you scroll up a few posts. Athomas gives a good explanation on how he cuts his. I've never tired it, I usually just put a gold and gray spring side to side, measure from the top of the gold spring to the top of the gray spring. Find the mid way point between the 2 tops and cut. It's never failed me yet.

    EDIT 2:

    If you do cut a spring. Make sure you place the cut end of the spring towards the bolt and the uncut end facing the breach of the body. That keeps the spring from digging into anything expensive.

    Thanks for the tips. I've been using the Red spring. Could it possibly be because I should just soak my o-rings? I have a feeling if they swell enough, I could get a good o-ring to bolt rod fit. Anyone ever run into that?

    I'll turn my velocity down and cycle a few shots until it stops leaking out the back, otherwise I'll have to send the marker in.

    Jake

  26. #2036
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    You shouldn't have to soak any of the orings unless your parts kit is a off brand. Try your gold spring to stop the leak out the back till you get a new piston. As for your bolt leak...hmmm...try the soak method. If that doesn't pan out, get new orings.

    Here's a pics and a link too give you a better understanding....


    http://www.bigevilonline.com/showthread.php?t=1455

  27. #2037

    Bolt Stick

    I have plenty of lube on mine, and I have no shims installed. But the bolt is collapsing well when I place a finger inside, it feels soft. But shoots well, except I cant get rid of bolt stick. How do I solve the problem of bolt stick? It happens every 100 shots or so.

  28. #2038
    Hey guys,

    Called AGD and left a message. In less than an hour I got a call back and was told it's all just the size of the o-rings I was given. I have three more on the way right now which they are testing personally before they send them to me. They told me it should be the fix right there as I had walked them through exactly what I had done.

    Hopefully it works!!!

    Thanks for the help guys, I'll keep you posted!

    Jake

  29. #2039
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMedievalMan
    I have plenty of lube on mine, and I have no shims installed. But the bolt is collapsing well when I place a finger inside, it feels soft. But shoots well, except I cant get rid of bolt stick. How do I solve the problem of bolt stick? It happens every 100 shots or so.
    Go up in your carrier. Use the largest one that doesn't leak. If you already have the largest in, you might want to ck your bolt spring. Could be on the verge of going Tango Uniform.

  30. #2040
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMedievalMan
    I have plenty of lube on mine, and I have no shims installed. But the bolt is collapsing well when I place a finger inside, it feels soft. But shoots well, except I cant get rid of bolt stick. How do I solve the problem of bolt stick? It happens every 100 shots or so.
    If if vents air and doesn't reset, then the bolt stick you are experiencing is due to a carrier size that is too tight.. As mentioned, you need to go to the next larger carrier size. Make sure you use the same white carrier oring each time you change carriers.

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