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Thread: ** Official Level 10 Problems Thread **

  1. #2041
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    Quote Originally Posted by redarmy27
    Good morning guys,

    I've acquired an Automag Classic over the past year and I've fallen in love with it. Just last night I finally received the final piece of the puzzle to make my own perfect marker: the Level X bolt.

    I carefully read all the instructions and proceeded to build up the new bolt and such from the instructions and online videos. Sadly to say, none of the carriers work. I've been paintballing since I was 11 and consider myself pretty marker savy, but this has me stumped. I've read that I'm supposed to choose the carrier that is snug with the o-ring along the bolt rod (sorry for the improper usage of words, I'm pretty tired), and in the videos it appears that you can get one that is snug. None of the carriers allow me to make it remotely snug. I air the marker up and it begins to leak down the barrel, but stops when I pull and hold the trigger.

    **Update**

    I've tried all the carriers, even the one line and one dot, and went through all of the carrier-held o-rings they supplied me. It just seemed like none of them fit enough as described in the instructions; they all seemed pretty loose around the bolt rod no matter which carrier I used. Perhaps I got a bad batch.

    I tried all the carriers and added and subtracted shims; but was primarily shimless. I got the marker to actually shoot, but with air still leaking down the barrel and actually out the back near the velocity adjuster, which is also leaking now as well after I had messed with that too.

    I'm a bit stumped. I'll fasten everything down again and even call up AGD to see if I can get new o-rings expressed shipped. I really want to use my level X by this weekend!!

    Thanks for any help you can provide!

    Jake
    The carriers aren't supposed to be snug, just not too loose. Its rare that you get orings that are too big on the inside diameter. Usually the small carrier with no lines and no dots will make any oring tight enough. Hopefully the new orings work for you.

    While you are waiting, check your sear. Make sure it isn't worn at the tip. That could cause the bolt to sit farther forward, exposing the vent hole a bit causing a consistent leak out the front.

    As for the piston assembly, you will have to get a new one of those if you want to run a level 10 bolt on an older classic mag. The older mags worked around 350psi and vented air a bit higher than that for safety. The level 10 bolts often work above 450psi.
    Except for the Automag in front, its usually the man behind the equipment that counts.

  2. #2042
    The way how its doing it. Is that the bolt doesnt fully lock back. It is just missing the sear by a little bit, and the bolt needs to be pushed back a bit by my finger tip in the breach. This only happens once in a while. I will try going up one carrier size, and let you guys know what happens.

  3. #2043
    Okay, so I changed nothing, aired up my tank with my scuba at a fill of around 1200-1300 psi. And I gave it a test run and the bolt did stick maybe 2-3 times in the test. And about two of those times I was able to get it working again by waiting a few seconds for it to reset, or holding the trigger down real quick to get it to reset. So now there is a bit of a leak coming out the bolt, I traced it exactly to the bolt itself. It wasnt leaking before, and I changed nothing in this test. So I am thinking that it may be the carrier oring, or the carrier itself should be changed. What do you guys think?

  4. #2044
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    Try it with a different spring see if you get the same results.

    Also, read what Athomas said to redarmy27about his sear.

    If after inspecting the sear and changing the spring still doesn't do it for you. Replace the oring.

  5. #2045
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMedievalMan
    The way how its doing it. Is that the bolt doesnt fully lock back. It is just missing the sear by a little bit, and the bolt needs to be pushed back a bit by my finger tip in the breach. This only happens once in a while. I will try going up one carrier size, and let you guys know what happens.
    That's a normal bolt stick symptom caused by a carrier that is too tight.

    Do check your sear as mentioned, in case the bolt is sitting a bit forward when at rest.

  6. #2046
    Its really weird though, like I tested it again the same way. And this time it didnt leak. If it is caused by a too tight carrier, then why would it leak the first test? Wouldnt changing to a lighter carrier cause it to definitely leak? Unless the leak in the first test is not coming from a light carrier, but something else?

  7. #2047
    Okay, so I moved from the one line carrier to a line and a dot. And this is what I have learned. The line and dot carrier definitely shoots more reliably. The bolt stick problem is solved, and when it does stick, it quickly snaps back into place. But right away when I gassed up the gun, it had a slow leak out the bleed hole in the valve. And when the pressure began to get low, it began to leak down the bolt. So I am stuck between having a leak and a reliable shot, vs no leak and some bolt stick. How do I solve both these problems?

  8. #2048
    My new o-rings are on their way! I tinked around with my marker a bit more tonight and I got the velocity adjuster to quit leaking by turning the velocity down. Just for kicks I tried to shoot the marker a bit, which stopped leaking down the barrel once I held the trigger down, and it fired a few times. I just need to get the new O-rings and I should be set. I currently have the red middle spring in, no spacers, and the smallest carrier. Once I get the new o-rings, I'll determine if I'm all in the clear!

    Thanks for the help!

    Jake

  9. #2049
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMedievalMan
    Okay, so I moved from the one line carrier to a line and a dot. And this is what I have learned. The line and dot carrier definitely shoots more reliably. The bolt stick problem is solved, and when it does stick, it quickly snaps back into place. But right away when I gassed up the gun, it had a slow leak out the bleed hole in the valve. And when the pressure began to get low, it began to leak down the bolt. So I am stuck between having a leak and a reliable shot, vs no leak and some bolt stick. How do I solve both these problems?
    Due to friction, a tighter carrier would cause the oring to be pushed back farther when the bolt is at rest. If the vent hole is close to the oring , then it could leak. When you use the proper carrier, the oring fits properly and doesn't get pushed back so it doesn't expose the vent hole and leak. However, low pressure causes the oring not to seal as tight against the bolt stem. This is normally not a problem unless the oring is close to the vent hole. A loose fitting oring on the edge of the vent hole may allow some air to creep by. I think there is some wear in your assembly. probably on your sear. Also, check that your rail bushing is in place. It probably is, because there would be other issues if it was missing.

  10. #2050
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    Quote Originally Posted by redarmy27
    My new o-rings are on their way! I tinked around with my marker a bit more tonight and I got the velocity adjuster to quit leaking by turning the velocity down.
    Hopefully, your velocity is high enough at the lower setting.

  11. #2051
    Quote Originally Posted by athomas
    The carriers aren't supposed to be snug, just not too loose. Its rare that you get orings that are too big on the inside diameter. Usually the small carrier with no lines and no dots will make any oring tight enough. Hopefully the new orings work for you.

    While you are waiting, check your sear. Make sure it isn't worn at the tip. That could cause the bolt to sit farther forward, exposing the vent hole a bit causing a consistent leak out the front.

    As for the piston assembly, you will have to get a new one of those if you want to run a level 10 bolt on an older classic mag. The older mags worked around 350psi and vented air a bit higher than that for safety. The level 10 bolts often work above 450psi.

    Hey thanks for the info. I checked the sear last night and it looks just fine (the previous owner had only used the Mag twice, didn't like it and had it locked up for the next how many years...), almost brand new.

    For the piston assembly, I'm not quite sure how old my classic is. Is there a way to tell? And also would I just be able to order the assembly on their site or is there a specific one? Winter is coming so I might either just send it in or order all the parts myself and tink as I get even more acquainted with this lovely marker

    Thanks for all the feedback guys; it's right what they say about Mag owners! Great people!

    Jake

  12. #2052
    Okay, I think I seriously underestimated just how much this gun likes oil. I opened up the valve and put in a liberal amount of oil inside all of the parts. And that completely solved the leak from the bleed hole. Now its down to the correct carrier size. I am on a carrier that still causes some bolt stick, and I can hear a very faint leak coming from the bolt when I put my ear on it. But I dont know if this is a true leak, or the "sea shell" effect. Im going to test it with some water to see if it bubbles.

    Quote Originally Posted by athomas
    Due to friction, a tighter carrier would cause the oring to be pushed back farther when the bolt is at rest. If the vent hole is close to the oring , then it could leak. When you use the proper carrier, the oring fits properly and doesn't get pushed back so it doesn't expose the vent hole and leak. However, low pressure causes the oring not to seal as tight against the bolt stem. This is normally not a problem unless the oring is close to the vent hole. A loose fitting oring on the edge of the vent hole may allow some air to creep by. I think there is some wear in your assembly. probably on your sear. Also, check that your rail bushing is in place. It probably is, because there would be other issues if it was missing.

  13. #2053
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMedievalMan
    Okay, I think I seriously underestimated just how much this gun likes oil. I opened up the valve and put in a liberal amount of oil inside all of the parts. And that completely solved the leak from the bleed hole. Now its down to the correct carrier size. I am on a carrier that still causes some bolt stick, and I can hear a very faint leak coming from the bolt when I put my ear on it. But I dont know if this is a true leak, or the "sea shell" effect. Im going to test it with some water to see if it bubbles.
    Lubrication is always good, but you should only have enough to wet the orings to allow them to move freely. Excessive oil can mask sticking problems, which will return after the oil blows off. Your mag should function on minimal oil if it is working properly. The act of taking the valve apart, applying the oil, and then putting it back together probably had as much to do with stopping the leak as the oil itself.

    The water test is a good one. Its hard to hear a slight leak in a tube. Even nothingness sounds like a hiss in a tube.

  14. #2054
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    Quote Originally Posted by redarmy27
    For the piston assembly, I'm not quite sure how old my classic is. Is there a way to tell? And also would I just be able to order the assembly on their site or is there a specific one?
    Chances are that if it didn't come with a level 10 installed, that it doesn't have a high pressure piston assembly. I don't think you can tell them apart by a glance. There could be a marking on the high pressure ones to differentiate them, but I don't recall ever seeing any difference in the ones I have replaced. The high pressure piston assemblies are the only ones sold now, so if you buy one at the AGD online store, it will be the high pressure version. Get in touch with Tunaman here on AO. He can get you a good deal. He is a dealer, so the price will be good and it will definately be a lot less expensive for shipping.

    Always work on a mag yourself if possible. That way you familiarize yourself with its operation and will see how simple they really are. Besides, when you ship it to AGD for repair and tuning, they will fix all problems but it will probably come back with a generic "works with everything" setup that may or may not work with everything.

  15. #2055
    You may be right about that, perhaps the act of moving around the parts fixed something that was loose. I am out of scuba air, so I will take it to the shop and see about getting it tested there. They use boxes of seconds to make tests on guns, and I will see about getting the velocity to the correct speed. So far no leaks, and I think I have the velocity up real high. So if I get it adjusted correctly, and its working fine without leaks, then I have it right.

    By the way, what exactly does adding shims do?

    Quote Originally Posted by athomas
    Lubrication is always good, but you should only have enough to wet the orings to allow them to move freely. Excessive oil can mask sticking problems, which will return after the oil blows off. Your mag should function on minimal oil if it is working properly. The act of taking the valve apart, applying the oil, and then putting it back together probably had as much to do with stopping the leak as the oil itself.

    The water test is a good one. Its hard to hear a slight leak in a tube. Even nothingness sounds like a hiss in a tube.

  16. #2056
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    Fixes reset problems after the lvl 10 is tripped.

    If your lvl 10 doesn't want to go back after it hits a ball. The shims will help to reset it.

  17. #2057
    Maybe thats my problem then, I should add more shims.

    When I add shims, I should keep adding, until it starts to leak right? Then I remove a shim, and it should be kept there. Is that how it works?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ando
    Fixes reset problems after the lvl 10 is tripped.

    If your lvl 10 doesn't want to go back after it hits a ball. The shims will help to reset it.

  18. #2058
    Gents, there comes a time in a man's life when he gets to experience true beauty. Some may say flashy cars get them going, others are for women and 401ks. Today I experienced my own by rolling up a receipt and bouncing the bolt off it.

    Yes, I got the new o-rings from AGD and it works wonderfully now! I'm guessing I actually have a newer 'Classic. Who knows, we'll see how it chronos!

    Thanks for all the help!

    Jake

  19. #2059
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMedievalMan
    Maybe thats my problem then, I should add more shims.

    When I add shims, I should keep adding, until it starts to leak right? Then I remove a shim, and it should be kept there. Is that how it works?
    That's not your problem. You are correct on the method of installation, though.

    Shims adjust how far the bolt needs to move before it can vent air and reset. Shims can help if you have an issue where the bolt moves past the sear, stops on a breach blockage, but does not move far enough to vent air so that it can reset. Usually, any movement at all will be far enough to expose the vent hole, even without any shims installed. Basically, if the bolt shoots or vents air at all, then shims will not help.

  20. #2060
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    Posting this for a friend. I'd appreciate it if you guys could help.

    "My level ten leaks, and I want to retune the the bolt. Ive watched several of the tutorials, but none of them have told me how to remove the carriers and shims from the powertube, and Id greatly appreciate it if you could tell me how to do it."

  21. #2061
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    Quote Originally Posted by TippmannFireman
    Posting this for a friend. I'd appreciate it if you guys could help.

    "My level ten leaks, and I want to retune the the bolt. Ive watched several of the tutorials, but none of them have told me how to remove the carriers and shims from the powertube, and Id greatly appreciate it if you could tell me how to do it."
    The easiest way to remove shims and carriers is with a pick. The field strip screw will work in a pinch though.

    Remove the power tube tip with a wrench (a correctly sized wrench is better than a crescent wrench because you're less likely to strip it. But again...it will do in a pinch).

    Once you've loosened it it should remove easily by hand.

    The shims (if there are any in there) should be sitting right on top, so just tip the valve upside down and tap them out, being careful not to bend them. I usually recommend working on mag valves on top of a clean towel because stuff won't roll away or get lost as easily.

    The carrier won't just tip out...it needs a little force. A dental pick is my preferred method. You can find these at medical supply stores, but you can get similar equivalents at any hardware store, they're just made for woodworking rather than teeth.

    There's lots of advice here on how to re-tune a level 10. If you have specific questions go ahead and post them.

  22. #2062
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    Im trying to Help a Member of the TechPB forums with his Level 10 issue, and it kinda has me stumped.

    I think I just have to retune the level ten, but it leaks out the bolt. Not a lot, but enough to be noticeable, I thought it was a on/off O-ring but it stops when I hold the trigger, so do you think the bolt just needs to be tuned or what?

    .....

    Well thats the thing, when I first air it up it doesnt leak, then I take a few shots and it starts to leak, then it seems to resolve itself and then it leaks again. Then there are times when i can shoot a full tank without any problems
    So its a leak which seals itself and then un-seals itself.
    Anybody know whats up?

  23. #2063
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mime
    Im trying to Help a Member of the TechPB forums with his Level 10 issue, and it kinda has me stumped.



    So its a leak which seals itself and then un-seals itself.
    Anybody know whats up?
    It could be as simple as too many shims in the powertube. The carrier moves around when the bolt cycles back and forth. If the bolt vent hole is close to the carrier oring sealing surface, it will sometimes be exposed and leak. Removing the shims will allow more distance for the carrier to move without exposing the hole.

  24. #2064
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    Persistent barrel leak

    I just got a brand new X-Valve.

    It's going into a stainless body on an AM/MM rail.

    I'm trying to tune the level 10 bolt and no matter what carrier I use, or what spring I use, I'm getting a small leak from the power tube area after the trigger is pulled.


    The smallest carrier that won't leak as soon as I gas up is the 1.0 carrier, and that's whats in there now. No shims.

    It gasses up great. Holds air, and cycles like a champ. It will even get a nice RT bounce off my stock input pressure ninja tank which is set for 850 psi or so.

    But as soon as I pull the trigger once I get a small hissing leak from the powertube. Sometimes it stops after a few seconds, sometimes it keeps going.

    If I hold down the trigger it will leak a bit louder for just a few seconds and then stop. After letting go sometimes the leak comes back, sometimes it stops.

    I had this same problem with the level 10 on my classic valve. The solution for that was to put the short spring on. I started tuning this with the gold spring and it doesn't help. The long spring won't even cycle, no matter how high I turn up the velocity.

  25. #2065
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    Quote Originally Posted by factoid
    I just got a brand new X-Valve.

    It's going into a stainless body on an AM/MM rail.

    I'm trying to tune the level 10 bolt and no matter what carrier I use, or what spring I use, I'm getting a small leak from the power tube area after the trigger is pulled.


    The smallest carrier that won't leak as soon as I gas up is the 1.0 carrier, and that's whats in there now. No shims.

    It gasses up great. Holds air, and cycles like a champ. It will even get a nice RT bounce off my stock input pressure ninja tank which is set for 850 psi or so.

    But as soon as I pull the trigger once I get a small hissing leak from the powertube. Sometimes it stops after a few seconds, sometimes it keeps going.

    If I hold down the trigger it will leak a bit louder for just a few seconds and then stop. After letting go sometimes the leak comes back, sometimes it stops.

    I had this same problem with the level 10 on my classic valve. The solution for that was to put the short spring on. I started tuning this with the gold spring and it doesn't help. The long spring won't even cycle, no matter how high I turn up the velocity.
    How old is the sear. Maybe there is just enough wear to allow the bolt to sit forward enough to locate the vent hole near the sealing edge of the carrier oring.

  26. #2066
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    Quote Originally Posted by athomas
    How old is the sear. Maybe there is just enough wear to allow the bolt to sit forward enough to locate the vent hole near the sealing edge of the carrier oring.
    Sear is brand new, came with the x-valve.

    It came stock with at least 3 or 4 shims in there which I removed before I ever gassed it up. I might try putting some shims back in it to see if that moves the carrier far enough to seal the vent hole.

  27. #2067
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    Quote Originally Posted by factoid
    Sear is brand new, came with the x-valve.

    It came stock with at least 3 or 4 shims in there which I removed before I ever gassed it up. I might try putting some shims back in it to see if that moves the carrier far enough to seal the vent hole.
    Shims will push the carrier farther back and expose the vent hole even more.

    Did you try changing the white carrier oring, just in case it was defective?

  28. #2068
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    Quote Originally Posted by athomas
    Shims will push the carrier farther back and expose the vent hole even more.

    Did you try changing the white carrier oring, just in case it was defective?

    Yep, I've tried about 3 of them now.

    I'm going to pull the one out of my classic valve that I know is working well.

    It shipped from the factory with a .5 carrier and 3 or 4 shims. I immediately pulled all that out and went straight to a 1.5 carrier, which occassionally leaks at gas-up. Seems like a 1.0 is probably the right fit for this, but maybe I need to go down farther. I don't think I've tried the 0 yet.

  29. #2069
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    Quote Originally Posted by factoid
    Yep, I've tried about 3 of them now.

    I'm going to pull the one out of my classic valve that I know is working well.

    It shipped from the factory with a .5 carrier and 3 or 4 shims. I immediately pulled all that out and went straight to a 1.5 carrier, which occassionally leaks at gas-up. Seems like a 1.0 is probably the right fit for this, but maybe I need to go down farther. I don't think I've tried the 0 yet.
    With the valve gassed up, stick your finger in the end and push on the end of the bolt to see if the leak changes. If pushing it back and wiggling it stops the leak, then its an issue with the bolt being too far forward. If the leak just changes as you wiggle it around, then you need a tighter carrier size.

  30. #2070
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    Quote Originally Posted by athomas
    With the valve gassed up, stick your finger in the end and push on the end of the bolt to see if the leak changes. If pushing it back and wiggling it stops the leak, then its an issue with the bolt being too far forward. If the leak just changes as you wiggle it around, then you need a tighter carrier size.

    Pushing the bolt does stop the leak.

    The sear I'm using is brand new, though, so I'm not sure what I can do to affect how far forward the bolt sits.

    Maybe a piece of scotch tape inside the sear pin groove on the rail? Maybe that would allow the sear to sit a bit farther back?

    This same rail was used on for a while on my classic valve with level 10 and it had a similar problem. But with that valve I could correct the leak by using a shorter spring.

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