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Thread: ** Official Level 10 Problems Thread **

  1. #2071
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    Quote Originally Posted by factoid
    Pushing the bolt does stop the leak.

    The sear I'm using is brand new, though, so I'm not sure what I can do to affect how far forward the bolt sits.

    Maybe a piece of scotch tape inside the sear pin groove on the rail? Maybe that would allow the sear to sit a bit farther back?

    This same rail was used on for a while on my classic valve with level 10 and it had a similar problem. But with that valve I could correct the leak by using a shorter spring.
    Well, if you are using a rail bushing, and I assume you are, then you have a rail that is out of spec. I wouldn't go with the scotch tape idea. The sear pin is usually tight as it is. You might be able to press fit a solid slug into the rail bushing hole and drill the hole in it so it is forward of where it normally sits. That would push the valve farther forward.

    What might work, is if you shave a tiny bit off the inner flat edge of the powertube tip. Its the flat surface that pushes against the carrier. Taking a bit off it will allow the carrier to sit farther forward. Make sure you do it against a flat surface so you don't sand more off one side than the other.

    The other option is to shave a bit off the carrier itself. The problem with this option is that it only works on the one carrier. If you have to make a change for any reason, you will have to do it again for the next carrier, and then the carriers won't be interchangeable in other guns.
    Except for the Automag in front, its usually the man behind the equipment that counts.

  2. #2072
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    I've got another rail, I just haven't been using it because for whatever reason the sear doesn't have enough travel in it to push the on/off pin completely into the valve so that it can be removed. It fires fine, but whenever I want to remove the valve I have to take the body off the rail. I'm working on some other options to make that rail work, or possibly replacing that sear.

    I did some more testing with springs and I found that my "medium" spring that I made by cutting a coil or so off a long grey spring actually causes the leak to get worse.

    So what I'm seeing is this:

    With gold spring, valve gasses up and holds air. After firing a shot or two it starts leaking and will leak if any slight pressure is put on the trigger.

    Thus the vent hole is not lining up right against the power-tube o-ring, probably too far forward.

    I put in a longer spring and now the valve leaks at gas up. Wiggling the bolt does not stop the leak. I'm assuming now that the vent hole is too far BEHIND the carrier o-ring. This can now be adjusted with shims to move the carrier back again and hopefully seal it up.

    If none of this works I'm going to trash this rail and go back to my wonky RT rail.

  3. #2073
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    Quote Originally Posted by factoid
    I've got another rail, I just haven't been using it because for whatever reason the sear doesn't have enough travel in it to push the on/off pin completely into the valve so that it can be removed. It fires fine, but whenever I want to remove the valve I have to take the body off the rail. I'm working on some other options to make that rail work, or possibly replacing that sear.

    I did some more testing with springs and I found that my "medium" spring that I made by cutting a coil or so off a long grey spring actually causes the leak to get worse.

    So what I'm seeing is this:

    With gold spring, valve gasses up and holds air. After firing a shot or two it starts leaking and will leak if any slight pressure is put on the trigger.

    Thus the vent hole is not lining up right against the power-tube o-ring, probably too far forward.

    I put in a longer spring and now the valve leaks at gas up. Wiggling the bolt does not stop the leak. I'm assuming now that the vent hole is too far BEHIND the carrier o-ring. This can now be adjusted with shims to move the carrier back again and hopefully seal it up.

    If none of this works I'm going to trash this rail and go back to my wonky RT rail.
    Here's where I'm at now.

    a .5 carrier, no shims and just a tiny amount of leaking. Using the slightly longer spring and a smaller spacer seems to be doing the trick mostly.

    If I notice a leak I can generally make it stop by holding the trigger down a couple seconds until the air chamber completely drains and then release.

    It's not doing it 100% of the time anymore, so it's an improvement. I also found that I can affect the leaking by using an allen wrench on the field strip screw. Sometimes there's a sweet spot where it won't leak, which leads me to believe that much of my problem is stemming from my rail and its tolerances.

    It's good enough to play with this weekend for now.

  4. #2074
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    Quote Originally Posted by factoid
    I'm assuming now that the vent hole is too far BEHIND the carrier o-ring. This can now be adjusted with shims to move the carrier back again and hopefully seal it up.
    If the vent hole is behind the oring, it won't leak. It only leaks when the vent hole is exposed at the front of the oring. This allows the air to pass through the center of the bolt stem to the hole on the side of the bolt stem, bypassing the carrier oring seal. Adding shims pushes the carrier and oring farther back and exposes the vent hole even more.

  5. #2075
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    A combination of a new (used) RT Pro rail and a tighter carrier solved it. FINALLY.

    I'm pretty sure something is out of spec on the AM/MM rail I was using. This is the second gun I've had it on that had chronic level 10 leaking problems.

    I was leaking on gas-up just a little when I switched rails so I put on a 0 carrier and that solved it. I think I finally broke in the o-ring playing last weekend so it should stay tuned now. The bolt is pretty tight on the powertube, but it shows no signs of bolt stick.

  6. #2076
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    Sorry if this has been answered already but this thread is a mile long. First off I am using a used X Valve with a lvl X bolt, ULT and not much for lvl X parts as it did not come with any extra carriers or springs. Warp left Ule body, AM/MM rail and an E Grip frame. My problem is that the gun will fire and not leak at the bolt but the bolt does not always want to reset all the way. I have plenty of clearance in regards to the sear and the solinoid. I have also replaced the regulator piston but it is still leaking from the velocity adjustment.

  7. #2077
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flatliner333
    Sorry if this has been answered already but this thread is a mile long. First off I am using a used X Valve with a lvl X bolt, ULT and not much for lvl X parts as it did not come with any extra carriers or springs. Warp left Ule body, AM/MM rail and an E Grip frame. My problem is that the gun will fire and not leak at the bolt but the bolt does not always want to reset all the way. I have plenty of clearance in regards to the sear and the solinoid. I have also replaced the regulator piston but it is still leaking from the velocity adjustment.
    You shouldn't have had to replace the regulator piston in an X-valve. They had the high pressure pistons from the factory, and most haven't been around long enough to be bad. If its leaking out the back, then you probably have a piece of dirt in the back section of the valve. When you reset the bolt and shoot, is the velocity setting correct, or is it high? A high velocity that doesn't go down when adjusted, would indicate a bad regulator seat oring in the valve. If it leaks all the time, then the problem is a bad/dirty oring around the regulator piston assembly or a bad regulator piston assembly. Since they usually don't leak, and you already replaced yours, I would suspect the problem is one of the orings.

    For the bolt sticking, the problem is most likely that the level 10 carrier is too tight. You need a set of carriers to properly adjust the inner diameter of the carrier oring. It could also be that the ULT has one too many shim installed, but I would tune the level 10 first.

  8. #2078
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    bolt stick

    I'm trying to read through all the threads but its hard. Especially with 70 pages. I have an Xvalve with ULT and lvl x. It was tuned and worked perfect for years. I just changed to a warp left ule body and I'm getting bolt stick. I tried different carrier all new orings, different springs and just can't figure it out. I'm using the second smallest carrier with just a dot on it and no shims. I'm using the smallest spring too. This setup works flawlessy for years. Even last sept it was fine. The ule body was new. Please help.
    Sometimes the gun will fire. When it sticks its not resetting. I can push the bolt back with my squeegee and its fine until it sticks again. I can hear the air slowly venting if I wait then it clicks and resets.
    I really need a Battery.....

    CHUFF CHUFF

  9. #2079
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boobie817
    I'm using the second smallest carrier with just a dot on it and no shims. I'm using the smallest spring too.
    Is that the smallest carrier that won't leak?

  10. #2080
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    Unhappy

    Quote Originally Posted by Ando
    Is that the smallest carrier that won't leak?
    yes. this setup has worked fine for years. i set this up in 04. i switched to a ule body about 2 months ago and now i have bolt stick. cant figure it out. can a body make me have to retune the lvl x again?
    Last edited by Boobie817; 02-19-2011 at 07:57 PM.

  11. #2081
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    Well hate to burst your bubble but you have to resize the carrier to the new oring. Every oring is different and will need to be readjusted.

  12. #2082
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boobie817
    I'm trying to read through all the threads but its hard. Especially with 70 pages. I have an Xvalve with ULT and lvl x. It was tuned and worked perfect for years. I just changed to a warp left ule body and I'm getting bolt stick. I tried different carrier all new orings, different springs and just can't figure it out. I'm using the second smallest carrier with just a dot on it and no shims. I'm using the smallest spring too. This setup works flawlessy for years. Even last sept it was fine. The ule body was new. Please help.
    Sometimes the gun will fire. When it sticks its not resetting. I can push the bolt back with my squeegee and its fine until it sticks again. I can hear the air slowly venting if I wait then it clicks and resets.
    Does the new body fit flat on the rail? Check that the feed tube does not rest on the side of the rail and prevent the body from sitting down tight. Some rails need to have a bit of metal filed away to allow this to happen.

  13. #2083
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ando
    Well hate to burst your bubble but you have to resize the carrier to the new oring. Every oring is different and will need to be readjusted.
    I didn't think of that. I just put in a new o ring.

  14. #2084
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boobie817
    I didn't think of that. I just put in a new o ring.
    Yes, I should have mentioned that too. It is the oring that you are adjusting when you change carrier sizes. If you change orings, you need to adjust the inner diameter of the new oring using the different sized carriers. The proper carrier adjusts the inner diameter of the oring to seal against the bolt stem without any added friction.

  15. #2085
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    Quote Originally Posted by athomas
    Yes, I should have mentioned that too. It is the oring that you are adjusting when you change carrier sizes. If you change orings, you need to adjust the inner diameter of the new oring using the different sized carriers. The proper carrier adjusts the inner diameter of the oring to seal against the bolt stem without any added friction.
    i thonk im off by one size. the gun worked flawlessly today then at the second to last game it jammed up. hopefully i can get this fixed. if i get my cocker working first this could turn out bad. lol

  16. #2086

    Changed to ULE Body

    Hey guys, I love my 'mag and my level X now!

    Bought a ULE body a few months ago and just got it on my mag. I love the look of it now. I switched everything over and the marker shoots but my level X isn't being as gentle now as it hits anything in the breach incredibly hard. It'll still back off a bit, but it isn't as soft as it once was.

    It's only been "hitting harder" since I changed to the ULE body. Any thoughts on this? The bolt isn't sticking at all. I'm currenly using the "gold spring" from the Level X kit and five shims in. The oring and carrier are spot on for size.

    Any thoughts?

    Jake

  17. #2087
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    Quote Originally Posted by redarmy27
    I'm currenly using the "gold spring"
    Your spring is worn. Change up to the red and you'll see a world of difference. No other tuning will be needed but a bump on the velocity.

  18. #2088
    Quote Originally Posted by Ando
    Your spring is worn. Change up to the red and you'll see a world of difference. No other tuning will be needed but a bump on the velocity.

    Sounds good. I changed up to the red spring and then it would stop on a simple hair from my head, but then it wouldn't cycle all the way through. The bolt is sticking now, gr, haha. Any ideas?

    Jake

  19. #2089
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    Quote Originally Posted by redarmy27
    Sounds good. I changed up to the red spring and then it would stop on a simple hair from my head, but then it wouldn't cycle all the way through. The bolt is sticking now, gr, haha. Any ideas?

    Jake
    The carrier setup should work for all springs. If it sticks with any of the springs, then it isn't properly tuned. Remember to remove all the shims when tuning. They can sometimes cause you to use a carrier that is a size too tight.

  20. #2090
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    I guess im not the only one who has had trouble with the epic lvl 10 lol... I feel better now. 70 Pages deep

  21. #2091
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tropical Life
    I guess im not the only one who has had trouble with the epic lvl 10 lol... I feel better now. 70 Pages deep
    Its not trouble, its just knowing how to properly set them up. I've never had trouble with any of them, and I've used them and tuned others since I was a beta tester.

  22. #2092
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    Hey guys, having Level 10 issues. The marker will fire fine for a few shots, then the trigger goes limp and you can literally hear the valve slowly filling up for a few seconds, then the sear 'clicks' and the marker can be shot again. I've got 3 shims in the ULT and am using the gold spring.

    Also, on a totally unrelated note, what kind of lube should be used on the two springs in the reg portion of the Xvalve? Can I use Dow 33? I know that's the kind of lube used in most vert regs, but I wanted to double check first.

  23. #2093
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hook
    Hey guys, having Level 10 issues. The marker will fire fine for a few shots, then the trigger goes limp and you can literally hear the valve slowly filling up for a few seconds, then the sear 'clicks' and the marker can be shot again. I've got 3 shims in the ULT and am using the gold spring.

    Also, on a totally unrelated note, what kind of lube should be used on the two springs in the reg portion of the Xvalve? Can I use Dow 33? I know that's the kind of lube used in most vert regs, but I wanted to double check first.
    Its probably the residual air leaking out the front that you hear. Once this air leaks out the spring force overcomes the residual air force and pushes the bolt back into place. To correct this, you need to retune your level 10 system. It sounds like you have a carrier size that is too tight. The 3 ULT shims should be fine. Just make sure they are ULT shims and not level 10 shims. If you accidentally put level 10 shims in your ULT, then the timing could be off causing your issue. Each ULT shim is 0.005" thick. Each level 10 shim is 0.01" thick.

    Remove all powertube shims first . Then use the largest carrier that does not leak. Always use the same white oring in each carrier that you check. Once you find the proper size carrier, you shouldn't have any problems.

    Use any good quality grease on the regulator piston springs. It is only used to prevent the springs from rusting. Grease is used instead of oil because it stays on better during use.

  24. #2094
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    Thanks fellow Canuck, will give that a try and let you know how it goes!

  25. #2095
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    Low velocity

    It's been a while since I've owned a mag, and even longer since I've tried to tune one. So I apologize if this seems like a rookie mistake lol.

    I recently got one of the 2k9 Micromags, and a Shocktech/AM valve and reg, with the level 10 bolt. Yesterday, with the small paint we had, I was getting pretty low velocity (230-240) with a approximate .689 stiffi barrel. The velocity adjuster is all the way in, I cannot turn it any further if I wanted to.

    Though when I went with a very small underbore, with my .670 brass insert on the Freak, I was getting between 275-284. It is usable with that. Got a little lower with a .679+ sizes. I would just keep underboring, but I'm afraid in the summer when it gets warm and humid, a underbore that low might start to make problems. Either too low and breaks, or too high and low velocity.

  26. #2096
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drachen
    It's been a while since I've owned a mag, and even longer since I've tried to tune one. So I apologize if this seems like a rookie mistake lol.

    I recently got one of the 2k9 Micromags, and a Shocktech/AM valve and reg, with the level 10 bolt. Yesterday, with the small paint we had, I was getting pretty low velocity (230-240) with a approximate .689 stiffi barrel. The velocity adjuster is all the way in, I cannot turn it any further if I wanted to.

    Though when I went with a very small underbore, with my .670 brass insert on the Freak, I was getting between 275-284. It is usable with that. Got a little lower with a .679+ sizes. I would just keep underboring, but I'm afraid in the summer when it gets warm and humid, a underbore that low might start to make problems. Either too low and breaks, or too high and low velocity.
    Did you measure the paint? If you put it in the insert, it should be just slightly touching on two points opposite each other for best fit. Some paint has been getting pretty small these days. Judging by the bore you are using, this is probably the case here. This would be exaggerated in the stiffy barrel because of the short control bore. The control bore of the freak is a bit longer which is probably helping achieve a higher velocity.

    Since you have an aftermarket upgrade on your valve, it is possible that the adjuster you have on the back won't allow the full range of velocity adjustment. Try putting a couple of washers inside the velocity adjuster cap to increase the adjustment depth. This should allow a higher velocity to be obtained.

  27. #2097
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    Quote Originally Posted by athomas
    Did you measure the paint? If you put it in the insert, it should be just slightly touching on two points opposite each other for best fit. Some paint has been getting pretty small these days. Judging by the bore you are using, this is probably the case here. This would be exaggerated in the stiffy barrel because of the short control bore. The control bore of the freak is a bit longer which is probably helping achieve a higher velocity.

    Since you have an aftermarket upgrade on your valve, it is possible that the adjuster you have on the back won't allow the full range of velocity adjustment. Try putting a couple of washers inside the velocity adjuster cap to increase the adjustment depth. This should allow a higher velocity to be obtained.
    I'm assuming it's the tension on the spring and pin that adjusts the velocity. If so, I believe it is working like it should.

    I took the adjuster cap off, and removed the shim stack, then replaced the adjuster cap. It went inside much lower without the shim stack, than it was able to with the shims. I don't think adding washers will really help with that...though I think I'll still pick some up.

  28. #2098
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drachen
    I'm assuming it's the tension on the spring and pin that adjusts the velocity. If so, I believe it is working like it should.

    I took the adjuster cap off, and removed the shim stack, then replaced the adjuster cap. It went inside much lower without the shim stack, than it was able to with the shims. I don't think adding washers will really help with that...though I think I'll still pick some up.
    More tension equals more pressure which equals more velocity. You can only add tension until the adjuster cap bottoms out. Adding a couple of washers, puts more tension on the spring pack at any given position. This will increase your available velocity. This velocity adjustment problem was found on some aftermarket adjusters. The washers just compensate for the difference in position between the stock adjuster and the aftermarket one.

  29. #2099
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    wont shoot

    Got my x valve with a 10 lvl air is bassing through the valve because i can hear a slight leak but the gun wont fire any tips?

  30. #2100
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    Where is the leak coming from?

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