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Thread: ** Official Level 10 Problems Thread **

  1. #211
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    Jun 2001
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    Orange County, Ca.
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    1,374

    Angry

    Very small leak down the barrel

    Using 0 carrier, no shims, short spring or cut spring, seems like no matter the setup, it still leaks a little down the barrel. It's very small leak but agravating. Arrg.
    Last edited by Bulldog; 10-11-2002 at 04:14 PM.

  2. #212

    level 10 killing me

    ok so here goes, got level 10 kit and have been trying to get it installed and working. i have read a couple of pages of threads and hasn't fixed my problem.

    as far as the o-ring carrier goes, i am using the loosest one that won't leak as per the instructions. i have no idea how you guys are coming up with the labelings as 1.5, 2.0, etc., however according to what i have read i am using the correct one.

    i have tryed all the springs that came with the kit, including chopping an extra stock spring.

    intially the gun would take pressure but pulling the trigger resulted in nothing. i read about the main spring, so i chopped the extra one i had. the gun now fires and even stops on a folded dollar bill.

    however, i cannot and i mean absolutely can not rapid fire.

    when i pull the trigger with no paint i can rapid fire all night. when i have paint in the gun i get off no more than 2 shots per second. i can hear the bolt resetting after each shot.

    wtf?

    -dugger

  3. #213
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
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    Sacramento
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    5

    Level 10 Problem...

    I just recently installed a Level 10 on my MinniMag and I can gas the gun up no problem without it leaking. But the trigger wont engage when I screw on my tank. It just sits there like there was no gas in the gun... Thanks for all the help
    November Rain & Knocking On Heavens Door...

  4. #214
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    Dugger:

    You can tell the size of the carrier by looking on the outside of it. If you see 1 ring, and 1 dot on it, then it is the 1.5 carrier. Rings= 1 and dots = .5

    What is the velocity at? I am no tech, but I think you need to increase either the velocity, or the Pressure from your tank, if it is adjustable.

    NiHiLo:

    Same thing I am guessing, either increase tank pressure, or increase velocity.

    Like I said before, I am no tech or anything, but reading all the responses by techs always seem to say to increase pressure/velocity if it isn't firing well...
    Hey Zero, how much did that Chipley cost ya?

    Originally said by Boggerman When I got married I thought it would go down too... The insurance, not the wife.

    FRUITCAT!!

  5. #215
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    Sep 2002
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    Sacramento
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    Well thats the problem it's not firing at all. When I gas it up there is no leaks but my trigger sear wont ingage so it is just flat. But as I turn the velocity up it starts to leak outta the front of the barrel and makes a clicking sound(the air does)...Once again any help with this would be appreciated...

  6. #216
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    If it is not doing anything at all, then usually turning up your velocity fixes that issue.

    However if you start leaking down the barrel as you turn up your velocity, use the squeegie test to see if you need to drop to a different carrier.

    Also, make sure that all o-rings are lubed thoroughly...
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  7. #217

    Re: Re: CP Small bore and a Level 10

    Originally posted by bunkerhugger


    Try honing out the barrel slightly, but only the breech part. Then you still have a small bore barrel, but the bolt won't hang up on it anymore.
    What about polishing or sanding down the bolt a little bit??? any reccomedations???????? Thanks in advance.
    Level 10 Mini Mag
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    10" .695 Small bore CP
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  8. #218
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    UPDATE!

    Today I switched to the "stock" spring, I had 4 springs that were given to me with the kit (remember I had bought it used). I used the second smallest one, but not one with the cut-end. I also took out the third Shim I had installed.

    So now I am running the 1.5 carrier, 2 shims and that spring:

    Today during play I broke a few balls, but I am not sure how. I know of at least 1 barrel break, but there was TONS of goo in the breach again today. That is either from it chopping (don't think so, it hardly made the level 10 PFFT noise at all), or me using bad paint (I had crappy 32* compitition... hey, its cheap!), or the brand new HALO I was running. It was a halo-A, so it could have got a little exited and ran the balls in too far... coupling that with the crappy paint, and that would equal goo in the breach.

    Either way I am going to try to add the third Shim for my next day of play, see if that will make any difference, then I will send the halo for the B upgrade, and I'll be set for life!

  9. #219
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    Halo and small bore

    What is the bore on the paint. I had a similar problem with crappy Severe paint, which was tiny bore and my HALO B. It could be because the small bore paint, force fed by the HALO caused a jam.

    Or that the tiny paint, able to roll down your barrel, is then hit by another ball that is shot at it, in the barrel, causing the barrel break.

    Ogre

  10. #220
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    The bore was pretty small, the paint barely rolled out of the Boomy on the mag, every 6 balls or so I put through it stopped in it, but a very small "blow" and it went right through. I don't know any specifics on the 32* paint though....

  11. #221
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
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    Sanford, FL
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    Lvl 10 standard?

    Will Level 10 be standard on future AGD markers? I have been toying with the idea of getting a nifty new RT Pro or E-Mag, or getting the Retro valve for my Automag Classic, but I was wondering whether I should wait until they came standard with Level 10.

  12. #222

    Talking level 10 is now pleasing me

    well, i tryed jumping the pressure but to no avail. i am not sure what the pressure was at (i am using CO2, yes i am still using CO2) so i looked around and finally found someone with tech stuff on bolt pressure through a normal bolt. a little more searching told me the pressure of CO2 should be way over that (duh it works). within this site i found people who had to go 800+psi (still under CO2 tank pressure), but with my reg as far in as it would go still nothing. i eventually came to the conclusion that i should try doing what everyone always told me to not to do: clean the regulator. i did and it is working awesome. my shots are stable to within 3 f/s. i would still not recommend as a general maintenance to clean out your reg. but it was my last ditch attempt to get this to work and it did.

    -dugger

    note: i did have an airsmith at a pro-shop check my cleaning to verify i wasn't going to blow anything up prior to gassing up.
    Last edited by dugger; 10-18-2002 at 09:15 AM.

  13. #223
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    Feb 2002
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    Chino
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    Just got my level 10 bolt today. I had a problem getting it to fire. Turns out to be my hyperframe, though the battery is old.I'll try with a fresh battery. It took me a few hours to figure it out after much tinkering. Anyone else have this problem? I'll wait till tomorrow to fine tune it.

    Update:
    I replaced my battery in my Hyperframe and everything was fine. It was weird, with the stock bolt, the hyperframe was fine but with the Level 10, it had problems.
    Last edited by pbzmag; 10-18-2002 at 04:18 PM.

  14. #224
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    tx
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    i need help quick

    foamie fell off while chronoing the gun at the shop today.. i have the xtra one... but wat should i use to get it back on? and what will the affect b if i play without it? can i use a rubber cement? or hot glue (shudders)? i need help asap.. got game in 9 hours (and its 12:15 in the morning here by the way) so please help pronto!!
    oogaboogawigywee!ITsa me! BLONDIE!
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  15. #225
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    WOW I havent checked this thread in a while! everyone's being a great help!

    Bulldog if your getting leaks with the 0 carrier you need to use a new o'ring.

    TheFlamingKoosh
    it's important to know what your chrono'd at to get the full effective use of your gear. I'd suggest that you and your friends all pitch in to buy a radarchron so you are more organized(and safe) when playing on your own land.

    2 shims are fine, they only change the position that the bolt vents at, if you not getting bolt stick then your fine.

    If balls were rolling out of your barrel, then check your nubbins. Halo's do put a lot of pressure on the ball stack so a bad nubbin could easily double feed and break paint.

    32* paint is not very consistent in it's size, if you want to shoot great you need to buy good paint, sorry but that's the way it is.

    the cut spring will be softer on paint(a lot softer) than the standard size spring.

    Duke Henry
    if you can't get the cut spring to chrono below 300(while your using the biggest carrier that doesnt leak) you could cut the spring down a bit more till you can chrono just right so it will be softer on paint than the standard spring.

    also, you don't really want to oil the carrier o'ring directly cause it gives a false sense of friction so you will have to keep constantly oil'ing it for it to work properly.

    LawFox32
    it's a classic problem, try polishing the bolt stem a bit. (if your already using the biggest carrier that doesnt leak)

    BAD007
    sounds like a bad bolt stem if your using the cut spring with the cut side on the bolt. get your hands on some calipers and see that the bolt stem tip to the front of the bolt measure to 2.010-2.015"

    MPRoberts0
    the level 10 bolt is thicker so help with blowback, that's normal with small bore barrels. Do what bunkerhugger said if you can get your hands on that type of equipment, but dont polish the bolt, it's hollowed out as it is. All I can say is use another barrel with paint that fits it good.

    NiHiLo-thc
    are you putting at least around 800-850psi into the marker?make sure your trigger rod length is 1.98". use the cut spring(cut side on bolt). turn up the velocity till it fires reliably, if it leaks down the barrel, try a smaller carrier. if it leaks from the velocity adjuster, get a new reg. piston.

    DoubleDutch the valve's will eventually come with the level 10 installed(right not the only ones that do are Extreme's) but it most likely wont happen until AGD sales a good chunk of their current level 7 bolts and parts.

    pbzmag
    that happened because the hyperframe has to use more power to move the sear with a level 10 because there is more pressure on the bolt. You will most likely run through batteries faster(I prefer the Iframe over the Hyperframe)

    srrdude
    It happens, you should use superglue, not rubber cement or hot glue. make sure you scratch off all the old glue, scratch the surface a bit with a screw driver so the glue has more contact surface and you should be fine. Put pressure on the foamie when you glue it for a while, and let the bolt air out anywhere but inside the marker so it could cure in time. Good luck.

  16. inconsistant and hard on paint

    I spent 3 hrs at the field and could not get my lvl 10 working properly. First the 2 carrier worked, but i guess the oring "broke in" so now .5 is the largest carrier that wont leak.

    Any way my setup right now is .5 carrier no shims smallest lvl 10 spring. The behaviour of my system is as follows.

    1. If i add shims it leaks.

    2. If i use the middle or longest spring i cant get it below 300 fps.(i get like 350 with longest and like 335 with medium)

    3. It is very inconsistant in its current state. Velocity goes something like this.

    278 286 290 215(not a typo) 284 291

    My understanding is that this type of inconsistancy is usually caused by to small a carrier but anything above .5 leaks. And i have oiled the thing several times.

    4. If a ball only goes half way in the breach the bolt hits and cracks the ball(2 bounce paint) then resets and the ball falls into the breach where the next trigger pull nicely distributes the paint evenly throughout the breach and barrel.

    5. This is just odd. I was first testing with my dye stainless steal barrel but i noticed that when i rested my barrel on the cronograph that it started leaking. So i pushed up on the end of the barrel with my hand and it leaked, but stopped leaking when i stopped putting pressure on it. I switched to my j&j ceramic(larger bore than dye) and it stopped.

    Help me please, i am very confused

    BlackVCG: Here's what you need to do. Put in a new o-ring and test fit it to the bolt Start with the 1.5 carrier. If it feels like it has friction, but is pretty loose, then go down in size. If it's nice and tight to begin with, then leave it at that carrier/o-ring combo. Get a pair of side-cutters and cut off about 1/2 of a coil on your middle spring. Test it out and see if you can get it shooting right around 280fps.

    LX is very inconsistant at first until the o-ring has broke in. Just cycle it as much as possible and then go the to chrono station. The leak when you push on the barrel means that the carrier size is one size too big. You can put double o-rings on your barrel, put some black electrical tape in the grooves and then put on your barrel o-rings to tighten up the barrel and keep it from moving around as much when you push on the barrel tip.
    Last edited by BlackVCG; 10-19-2002 at 01:02 PM.

  17. #227
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    Thanks alot Havoc!

    My original problem was that it was pushing paint into the breech, and not firing it... so it was ventin too early.

    My thought was that it was pushing against too hard a spring, so it would move faster, and vent later with shorter spring, so thats what I tried. It worked really good, but I still got some ball breaks, I am just unsure about where they came from. I won't be able to play for a while now (no job = no money! doh!) so I won't be able to test some new Ideas...

  18. #228
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Stevens Point, WI
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    Only two issues during the install of my level 10.

    A. The foamie shot out of the bolt almost immidiately.

    B. The bolt did not fit inside my JJ Ceramic barrel.

    Neither are that big of a deal in my opinion. Barrel thing is kind of annoying but I had planned on getting a new barrel anyway.

    More of an FYI than a request for help.

  19. #229
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    Jul 2002
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    Brooklyn, NY
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    Mike:

    You may want to run a search on the thread, but I beleive there is at least one other person who reported problems with the Level 10/JJ Ceramic Barrel combo.

    Ogre

  20. #230
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    Feb 2002
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    Clayton, NC
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    315
    Mike,

    I was having the exact same problem with my J&J 12". The small amount of play in the barrel was enough to cause my gun not to fire. However, I was using the middle spring at that time. I went to the shortest spring and it solved that problem!

    If you're still getting some barrel stick, try lapping the breech on the barrel a little. Or even check the barrel 0-rings.

    Hope this helps.
    Lvl X TKO Automag PF/HL, Intelliframe, a Simmons 30mm Red Dot and a J&J 12" Ceramic barrel.
    Crossfire 68/4500
    -------------------------------------
    Die Hard Woods Player

  21. #231
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    30

    Problem with Velocity Adjustment and Tourney lock

    I put the level 10 in my automag classic.....i have the smallest spring that comes with the kit, 2 shims and the #1.5 carrier, i got it to work fine but, i have to turn in my velocity screw in the back way up and it is now too far in for my tourney lock on the back...I cant get the tourney lock on any threads of the velocity adjustemt...What can i do? is there a longer adjustment screw you guys sell or can i mill the back of the cylinder itself a few thousand so i can get the tourney lock to catch the threads?? Need to know in a hurry if at all possible...thanks alot

  22. #232

    Why Upgrade?

    i hear people complain about sex all the time too. that doesnt mean it isnt worth the occasional problem (ie dealing with the gf).

    i had issues with this at first like many others but they have been resolved. my advice to you is play with your mag for a while. if you chop balls upgrade the bolt. if not, leave it alone. before i put in a two finger trigger i chopped > 1/1000, afterwards i had issues due to short stroking.

    my gf thinks i care more about my mag than i do her?!? what do you think?

    mag
    o-ring kit/oil $$
    fires everytime i finger the trigger
    doesnt get handled by other guys
    ugly green AA barrel

    gf
    going out $$$$$$
    gets @#$king "headaches"
    goes to random house
    parties
    has hottie roommates

    ok...so maybe its close.

    -dugger

  23. #233
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Newfoundland, Canada
    Posts
    7
    i just got a level 10 for my minimag yesterday. i set it up exactly how the instructions said on the website, and it worked fine. then today when i went to shoot my gun again, it wouldn't shoot at all. i turned up the velocity and tried all three mainsprings but nothing worked. please help me fast!!
    donkey_kev@hotmail.com
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  24. #234
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    Jul 2002
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    Originally posted by DonkeyKev
    i just got a level 10 for my minimag yesterday. i set it up exactly how the instructions said on the website, and it worked fine. then today when i went to shoot my gun again, it wouldn't shoot at all. i turned up the velocity and tried all three mainsprings but nothing worked. please help me fast!!
    I had the same problem. Try changing your carrier to a looser one. Find the loosest carrier that you have, that will not cause a carrier leak down the barrel. Also, as you switch carriers make sure to keep using the same o-ring with the carrier.

    Ogre
    Seeg images? Vee don' need no steenkin' seeg images?!?

  25. #235
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    May 2002
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    Newfoundland, Canada
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    i already tried a different carrier but it leaked. i think i used a dif o-ring on the second carrier though. i also tried replacing every part in the lvl 10, including the mainsprings, but nothing.

  26. #236
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    Feb 2002
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    Texas
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    dugger - why upgrade?
    If you don't have chopping problems, that's great, I didnt either, infact a lot of ppl I've talked to didnt see the need to upgraded because they never chopped. But then some ppl change thier because...

    ... everyone wants an accurate marker. When it comes to accuracy the things that matter most are the barrel, paint/barrel match/ consistency, and recoil(reciprocating mass) which matter under rapid fire.

    Pretty much all high-end markers are capable of being equally consistent and of course the barrel/paint doesnt apply between markers much since you can get the same barrel for most markers and obviously use the same paint. So what does it all boil down to? Recoil. The level 10 bolt give the marker less recoil(since there is less mass moving when the marker is fired) than any other marker. So, in theory, the level 10 mag is capable of being the most accurate marker(not including the factor of a persons preference).

    DonkeyKev
    try a higher input pressure. what are you currently running?

  27. #237
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Kelso, WA
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    104

    Look at your barrel

    I couldn't get my mag to shoot with level 10 until I took the barrel off, then it fired fine. So I took the valve out put the barrel back on and found out the barrel was slightly offline from the body. At first I assumed it was the barrel but it was a problem on each barrel, with more examination I found out it was the barrel lock pin that was sticking up too high and causing the barrels to be off center. The body rail I got from smartparts wasn't drilled properly and the lock pin didn't seat right in the rail. So watch out the pin could be the problem, if it shoots fine without the barrel then you know its the barrel or the pin that holds it. That was my problem hope this helps someone.

  28. #238
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    Nov 2001
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    Irvine, CA
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    My fickle level 10

    To start off, I've read this whole thread a couple of times trying to figure out my problem, so essentially done my research on this topic trying to troubleshoot the problem.

    I got my level ten two weeks ago, as per the instructions, I put in the 2.0 carrier, longest spring, 2 shims. Turned up the velocity until it fired consisently and a small leak developed down the barrel(~100 dryfires). At this point I switched over to the 1.5 carrier, with the same o-ring, leak stopped, the gun worked. I don't have a chrono but I was satisfied with the being able to get it to fire consistently under rapid fire and put my gun away.

    A week later, I decide to install the new Palmer sideline reg that I got. I put it on, wouldn't fire, so I turned up my Stab until it did. Fired about twenty shots, then it stopped firing no matter how high I turned up the velocity on my Stab. At first, I thought their was too much friction preventing the gun from firing, so I switch to the middle spring. Still didn't work. Switched to the 2.0 carrier. Still didn't work. Then with the shortest spring it would fire halfway.

    It occurs to me that I might be out of CO2, but my 20oz still feels pretty full. And having read previous posts in this thread about how the gun stops firing when there's 800-900 PSI left in the tank(BLACKVCG can you confirm this?)

    Anycase, I go over the Glenn Palmers website and I dig up this info from one of his FAQs

    amount of liquid CO2 in a 20oz tank pressure

    21 oz 1150 psi+
    20 oz 950 psi
    19 oz 875 psi
    17 oz 825 psi
    15 oz 815 psi
    12 oz 810 psi
    6 oz 805 psi
    2 oz 800 psi

    Here's my hypothesis-

    a) IF the above information is correct(no reason why it shouldn't be, coming from Glenn himself the Co2 expert)
    b) AND If the level 10 does indeed stop working at around 800-900 psi left from the air source

    THEN following the above conditions

    The level 10 will not work with a Co2 air source, given that output PSI drops below 850 somewhere between 19-17 oz of CO2 left in the tank! So basically, with a 20 oz Co2 tank, I can only get 2-3 ozs of shots with it before the output pressure drops into the questionable range of 800-900 PSI where LX isn't going to operate with the middle or the longest spring?

    I am going to the store to get my 20 oz CO2 tank weighed this afternoon to see how much CO2 is left and to see whether my hypothesis is correct. I am reasonably sure that this is why I can't get my level 10 to work.

    Help is sincerely appreciated, especially from Havoc and Black.

    Here's the link from which I got the info-

    http://www.palmer-pursuit.com/FAQ/stabfaq.htm
    Last edited by Tankdriver; 11-04-2002 at 06:10 PM.
    Red Chord V2 RT Pro

  29. #239
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
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    North Plains, OR
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    It sounds as though you're low on air. Go ahead and get your tank filled and see what happens. You might run into some problems running the stabalizer with Co2 and LX. Since that's a double regulated system and the output of the Co2 tank fluctuates with temperature, then you might experience certain times where it doesn't fire consistantly or at all. Test it out and see how it does, but if you experience problems with not being able to get the velocity you want, not firing or something of that sort, then try switching to the shortest spring or the cut middle spring.

  30. #240
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
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    BlackVCG,

    Thanks for the fast response, but my question wasn't answered.

    The level 10 will not work with a Co2 air source, given that output PSI drops below 850 somewhere between 19-17 oz of CO2 left in the tank! So looking at that table above, with a full 20 oz Co2 tank, I can only get 2-3 ozs of worth of shots with it before the output pressure drops into the questionable range of 800-900 PSI where LX isn't going to operate with the middle or the longest spring?


    "Since that's a double regulated system and the output of the Co2 tank fluctuates with temperature, then you might experience certain times where it doesn't fire consistantly or at all. "


    I don't see why I should have any more problems using a secondary regulator than another that is using a nitro setup. Using a Stab on an automag makes it into a dual regulated system, same as anyone else that is using regulated nitro airsource(assuming that most nitro tanks have a built in reg) therefore reducing variations in input pressure. Isn't that the purpose behind having a regulated airsource? I don't really understand what you said about temperature fluctuations on Co2, isn't the regulation ratio from the secondary regulator supposed to take care of that? 50:1 change in PSI, or whatever.



    Co2 tank pressure(very unstable, affected by outside temperature, liquid phase etc) -> Palm Stab, regulates it down to whatever I set it to -> the automag valve with LX, which I'm assume operates at 800-900 PSI when using the middle or the longest spring.

    Following the above statement, if I want to use Co2 with LX, then I am limited to using the shortest spring in order for the marker to fire consisently(taking into consideration the outside temperature, and how much co2 is left in the tank), correct?

    Sorry if these are dumb questions to anyone, I am just trying to learn about my automag and how to get the LX to operate with co2.
    Last edited by Tankdriver; 11-04-2002 at 06:26 PM.

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