Page 73 of 76 FirstFirst ... 23636970717273747576 LastLast
Results 2,161 to 2,190 of 2264

Thread: ** Official Level 10 Problems Thread **

  1. #2161

    Micromag with lvl 10 upgrade kit.

    I recently aquired a Micromag with a MicroMag bolt. I Installed the lvl X upgrade kit tonight and it vents out the rear velocity adjuster. It has one of those "dial a welt" toolless adjusters and vents out the center. I replaced all the orings in the bolt and lubed it well. I have to turn it way up to get it to fire and then it vents like made out the rear. I tried the shortest of the two springs and the original spring with the same result. Any suggestions?

    I'm sorry, but after a long day, I didn't have the patience to read all 72 pages.


    Thanks!

  2. #2162
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Kentucky
    Posts
    4,146
    It's your reg piston. You'll need a new one. The older style ones can't handle the pressure that it takes to move the lvl 10.

    You didn't happen to use the gray spring did you?

  3. #2163
    No, I didn't try the grey one. Everything I did see said the leaking was a result of the spring being too long, so I went with the shorter ones.

    So, reg piston, eh? I'll have to try to swap it out...how do I remove it?

    Thanks!
    Quote Originally Posted by Ando
    It's your reg piston. You'll need a new one. The older style ones can't handle the pressure that it takes to move the lvl 10.

    You didn't happen to use the gray spring did you?
    Last edited by RogueMMPT; 04-12-2012 at 10:34 AM.

  4. #2164
    Ok, got the reg piston out and swapped it out with one from another marker. Leaks less, but still leaks.

  5. #2165
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Kentucky
    Posts
    4,146
    Pull it back out. Clean the inside housing with Q Tips. Replace the oring on the piston and reinstall.

  6. #2166
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Halifax, N.S., Canada
    Posts
    7,368
    Quote Originally Posted by RogueMMPT
    Ok, got the reg piston out and swapped it out with one from another marker. Leaks less, but still leaks.
    Was the swapped reg piston one of the newer high pressure versions or was it one of the original versions. If it wasn't one of the new high pressure ones, it will leak also. All older low pressure reg pistons will leak eventually when used with a level 10 unless the conditions are near perfect.
    Except for the Automag in front, its usually the man behind the equipment that counts.

  7. #2167
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Medford MA
    Posts
    169
    I just got a level 10 for my RT Pro (upgrading from the original superbolt haha) and have a couple questions:

    1) How many carrier sizes is the kit supposed to come with? Mine came with four sizes (0,.5,1,1.5) but most install guides say to start with size 2.
    2) I did an initial install and it seems to work ok (read, not perfect but cycles) using the 1.5 carrier with 1 shim. I have the gold (shortest) spring in and I'm not sure where the velocity would be with paint. If I hold the trigger back it leaks or vents air for approx 1.5 seconds and then stops. What's going on there?

    Thanks and sorry for being such a mag n00b

  8. #2168
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Halifax, N.S., Canada
    Posts
    7,368
    The new kits come with the sizes you have. The old kits used to come with sizes from 0 to 3.5. Most of the time carriers above 1.5 were never needed, so the larger ones were dropped from the kit.

    The gold spring will work for all velocities.

    If you hold the trigger down and it leaks a bit before sealing, it usually means the bolt stem vent hole is close to the sealing edge of the oring causing it to weep air until the oring sets and tightens up. Remove the shim and you should be fine. Shims shouldn't be used anyway. Shims only change how far the bolt needs to move before it can vent air and reset. Most of the time, even in extreme cases of a breach blockage, the bolt will always move far enough to expose the bolt stem vent hole.

    Level 10 tuning guide:

    When tuning your level 10, remove all the shims from the powertube before starting. They don't affect the operation but they can cause false leaks which cause you to use a carrier size that is too tight. Don't put them back when you are done. You shouldn't ever need them.

    For carrier sizing:

    Find the carrier size that causes the installed oring to fit freely over the bolt stem. The carrier should sit on the bolt stem without moving if the bolt is held in a vertical position. If you tap the valve on a hard surface, the carrier should be loose enough to allow the bolt to move. If you have to force the carrier onto the bolt stem with any force at all, then it is too tight. Install the bolt and valve into the gun. When aired up there should be no leaking. If it leaks, take the carrier out and replace it with the next smaller size. Always use the same white carrier oring in each carrier that you use. It is the orings that you are adjusting. Try it again. You want to use the largest carrier size that does not produce a leak.

    Any time that the gun fires and does not reset or short strokes and does not reset, or just chuffs and does not reset, the problem is most likely a carrier that is too tight. Installing shims will not help. Shims only help if the bolt moves, hits an object but does not vent any air, and then cannot reset because the chamber is still fully charged. Most of the time the bolt always moves far enough to expose the vent hole, get rid of excess air, and then reset.

    For spring adjustment:

    You want to use the bolt spring that allows you to shoot about 20fps above the lowest velocity that the gun will cycle at. So, if you want to use the gun at 280fps, then your desired lower limit of operation is 260fps. Insert your long bolt spring. Turn the velocity adjuster down before you air up the valve. Then gradually turn up the velocity until the gun will cycle. This is your lower velocity. Measure it. If it is above 265fps, then you will need a shorter spring or you will need to clip the one you have (unless you have red one. They are usually in the correct range). If you clip a spring, only clip half a coil at a time and then try it using the same procedure of starting with a low velocity setting. Make sure you put the cut end of the spring towards the bolt. If you have the short spring installed, and the lower range is 30fps below the desired shooting velocity, I wouldn't worry about using a stiffer spring and would just go with the short bolt spring. If it was much lower than that, I would definitely clip a long spring to get closer to the desired range.

  9. #2169
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Medford MA
    Posts
    169
    THANKYOUTHANKYOUTHANKYOU athomas!

    I followed the tips in your post. Gun shoots great now. Played today, no chops or issues shooting 260 +-8 or so the whole day. I'm now officially a level 10 believer.

  10. #2170
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Halifax, N.S., Canada
    Posts
    7,368
    Quote Originally Posted by ScottyBeans View Post
    THANKYOUTHANKYOUTHANKYOU athomas!

    I followed the tips in your post. Gun shoots great now. Played today, no chops or issues shooting 260 +-8 or so the whole day. I'm now officially a level 10 believer.
    That's great to hear. The level 10 bolt does work really well when tuned properly.

  11. #2171
    I've been having trouble getting my micromag up and running and hopefully someone can help. I've got an rt pro valve with a level 10 bolt. I initially had the original reg piston and it worked fine so long as I didn't want to shoot above 260, that is when it started leaking. So I ordered a new reg piston from tunaman. I'm using the .5 carrier. I started off with the red bolt spring. I followed all the guides and turned the velocity up until it first cycles, this happens at about 250fps. Since that is 20fps below where I want to be I thought I'd be good. Well when I try to turn up the velocity to get to field velocity, it doesn't increase at all. I can turn it in until the velocity nut bottoms out and it won't go above 250. I tried all three bolt springs and it is the same case with each one, though at different velocities. Am I missing something crucial here? I am stumped.

  12. #2172
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Halifax, N.S., Canada
    Posts
    7,368
    Quote Originally Posted by sniper42 View Post
    I've been having trouble getting my micromag up and running and hopefully someone can help. I've got an rt pro valve with a level 10 bolt. I initially had the original reg piston and it worked fine so long as I didn't want to shoot above 260, that is when it started leaking. So I ordered a new reg piston from tunaman. I'm using the .5 carrier. I started off with the red bolt spring. I followed all the guides and turned the velocity up until it first cycles, this happens at about 250fps. Since that is 20fps below where I want to be I thought I'd be good. Well when I try to turn up the velocity to get to field velocity, it doesn't increase at all. I can turn it in until the velocity nut bottoms out and it won't go above 250. I tried all three bolt springs and it is the same case with each one, though at different velocities. Am I missing something crucial here? I am stumped.
    Its not a level 10 problem.

    Try putting a washer inside your velocity adjuster so that you get more tension on the regulator springs.

  13. #2173
    That would be the only issue? It wasn't doing this with the old reg piston. I will give the washer idea a go and see if that fixes it though.

  14. #2174
    Well the washers didn't help. Once it starts cycling, it has about 3 full turns until the nut bottoms out. However, the velocity doesn't change through these full turns. It actually decreases by about 10 fps.

  15. #2175
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Halifax, N.S., Canada
    Posts
    7,368
    Quote Originally Posted by sniper42 View Post
    Well the washers didn't help. Once it starts cycling, it has about 3 full turns until the nut bottoms out. However, the velocity doesn't change through these full turns. It actually decreases by about 10 fps.
    Hmmm. That doesn't make sense. Screwing the adjuster in puts more tension on the spring, which means it takes more pressure in the front chamber to push it back and shut off the air supply, thus regulating the chamber pressure to a higher value. Make sure both reg springs are in place. Is the air supply in your tank high enough for operation (not empty) and is the tank output pressure high enough to supply your valve?

    Anyway, this isn't a level 10 issue. Start a new thread in the tech section and copy the contents of this conversation over to it.

  16. #2176
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Ann Arbor, Michigan
    Posts
    3
    I installed the lvl 10 bolt in my RT. When I gassed up, the on/off valve wouldn't engage the sear assembly causing the trigger to not function. It was firing perfect hours before with the lvl 7. Has anyone ever had this issue? I'm thinking either the bolt is making contact with the sear thereby not letting the on/off valve function, or the on/off valve could be stuck for some reason.

    Thanks.

  17. #2177
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    DeWitt, MI
    Posts
    399
    Level 10 requires more pressure than a Level 7. Turn your velocity up, and try again.

    Heck, Ann Arbor? If you can't get it working, bring it to DeWitt, and we'll get it going.


    -Nathan
    Last edited by nak81783; 07-21-2013 at 04:17 PM. Reason: Noticed locality.
    XT00380
    Last of the Salzburg Clan

  18. #2178
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Halifax, N.S., Canada
    Posts
    7,368
    Quote Originally Posted by RockoFTN View Post
    I installed the lvl 10 bolt in my RT. When I gassed up, the on/off valve wouldn't engage the sear assembly causing the trigger to not function. It was firing perfect hours before with the lvl 7. Has anyone ever had this issue? I'm thinking either the bolt is making contact with the sear thereby not letting the on/off valve function, or the on/off valve could be stuck for some reason.

    Thanks.
    You are getting bolt stick due to the carrier being too tight for your oring. It is preventing the bolt from sitting back far enough to reset the sear. See http://www.automags.org/forums/showt...97#post2828797 for tuning advise.

  19. #2179
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Ann Arbor, Michigan
    Posts
    3
    Quote Originally Posted by nak81783 View Post
    Level 10 requires more pressure than a Level 7. Turn your velocity up, and try again.

    Heck, Ann Arbor? If you can't get it working, bring it to DeWitt, and we'll get it going.


    -Nathan
    Thanks Nathan,

    I had to crank up the regulator 3 complete turns, but it worked, the RT cycled. Do you know the reason why changing the bolt would have such a large effect on the regulator?

  20. #2180
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    DeWitt, MI
    Posts
    399
    Quote Originally Posted by RockoFTN View Post
    Thanks Nathan,

    I had to crank up the regulator 3 complete turns, but it worked, the RT cycled. Do you know the reason why changing the bolt would have such a large effect on the regulator?
    The Level 10 has a smaller surface area that the pressure pushes on to start the cycle, so it needs more pressure than a Level 7. It's not until the largest stem diameter makes a nearly complete seal with the powertube tip that the full forward force of the bolt occurs. Here is an animation that should help your understanding.

    http://www.zdspb.com/media/tech/anim...evel10real.gif

    As such, you will see about a 10% efficiency loss, but the chop protection is worth it.


    -Nathan

  21. #2181
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Halifax, N.S., Canada
    Posts
    7,368
    Quote Originally Posted by nak81783 View Post
    The Level 10 has a smaller surface area that the pressure pushes on to start the cycle, so it needs more pressure than a Level 7.
    Also, if you are using a stiffer bolt spring, it requires more force/pressure to move the bolt forward.

    RockoFTN: Go through the level 10 tuning procedure to make sure you are using the largest carrier that does not produce a leak. It is absolutely essential or you will get bolt stick at some point out in the field during a game.

  22. #2182
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    DeWitt, MI
    Posts
    399
    Quote Originally Posted by athomas View Post
    Also, if you are using a stiffer bolt spring, it requires more force/pressure to move the bolt forward.
    True. Forgot to mention that part.

    I may have asked this before or read it somewhere, but I have forgotten. Are the spring constants actually different between the springs (red spring "stiffer" than gold spring), or is it just the length that factors in (F=kx, more initial compression within the constant distance between the bolt spring seat and the body spring seat results in more force that the bolt must overcome)?


    -Nathan

  23. #2183
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Halifax, N.S., Canada
    Posts
    7,368
    Quote Originally Posted by nak81783 View Post
    True. Forgot to mention that part.

    I may have asked this before or read it somewhere, but I have forgotten. Are the spring constants actually different between the springs (red spring "stiffer" than gold spring), or is it just the length that factors in (F=kx, more initial compression within the constant distance between the bolt spring seat and the body spring seat results in more force that the bolt must overcome)?


    -Nathan
    I do know that the silver spring is both stiffer and longer. I'm not sure if the red spring is both longer and stiffer or just longer. I never measured the spring constant to check it.

  24. #2184
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Ann Arbor, Michigan
    Posts
    3
    Quote Originally Posted by athomas View Post
    Also, if you are using a stiffer bolt spring, it requires more force/pressure to move the bolt forward.

    RockoFTN: Go through the level 10 tuning procedure to make sure you are using the largest carrier that does not produce a leak. It is absolutely essential or you will get bolt stick at some point out in the field during a game.
    athomas: I believe I have the largest of the 4 carriers in it already, as long as the lvl 10 tuning video was correct on the sizing. Thanks for the heads up tho.

  25. #2185
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Halifax, N.S., Canada
    Posts
    7,368
    Quote Originally Posted by RockoFTN View Post
    athomas: I believe I have the largest of the 4 carriers in it already, as long as the lvl 10 tuning video was correct on the sizing. Thanks for the heads up tho.
    What was the size of your largest carrier? How, tight was it? You can gauge the tension by placing it on the tip of the bolt stem. Then, hold the bolt in a vertical position with the bolt stem up and gently tap the face of the bolt on a hard surface. The carrier and oring should fall to the base of the stem. If it doesn't move or if it takes a hard bang to get it to move, then the carrier size is too small.

  26. #2186
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    lansing, Michigan
    Posts
    135
    so I just got an x-valve used and im setting it up im getting bolt stick when its supposed to reset on a ball not fully chambered. I just took it apart and there seems to be a couple shims in it already. bolt has the gold spring on it. it shoots great if I don't rt, so do I need to remove the shims or do I need a longer spring? I don't remember how to tune my lvl 10 its been about 3 or 4 years sense I was active and even messed with my mags or paintball.

  27. #2187
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Dayton OH
    Posts
    514
    Quote Originally Posted by magman313 View Post
    so I just got an x-valve used and im setting it up im getting bolt stick when its supposed to reset on a ball not fully chambered. I just took it apart and there seems to be a couple shims in it already. bolt has the gold spring on it. it shoots great if I don't rt, so do I need to remove the shims or do I need a longer spring? I don't remember how to tune my lvl 10 its been about 3 or 4 years sense I was active and even messed with my mags or paintball.
    thomas' guide will help:

    Quote Originally Posted by athomas View Post
    The new kits come with the sizes you have. The old kits used to come with sizes from 0 to 3.5. Most of the time carriers above 1.5 were never needed, so the larger ones were dropped from the kit.

    The gold spring will work for all velocities.

    If you hold the trigger down and it leaks a bit before sealing, it usually means the bolt stem vent hole is close to the sealing edge of the oring causing it to weep air until the oring sets and tightens up. Remove the shim and you should be fine. Shims shouldn't be used anyway. Shims only change how far the bolt needs to move before it can vent air and reset. Most of the time, even in extreme cases of a breach blockage, the bolt will always move far enough to expose the bolt stem vent hole.

    Level 10 tuning guide:

    When tuning your level 10, remove all the shims from the powertube before starting. They don't affect the operation but they can cause false leaks which cause you to use a carrier size that is too tight. Don't put them back when you are done. You shouldn't ever need them.

    For carrier sizing:

    Find the carrier size that causes the installed oring to fit freely over the bolt stem. The carrier should sit on the bolt stem without moving if the bolt is held in a vertical position. If you tap the valve on a hard surface, the carrier should be loose enough to allow the bolt to move. If you have to force the carrier onto the bolt stem with any force at all, then it is too tight. Install the bolt and valve into the gun. When aired up there should be no leaking. If it leaks, take the carrier out and replace it with the next smaller size. Always use the same white carrier oring in each carrier that you use. It is the orings that you are adjusting. Try it again. You want to use the largest carrier size that does not produce a leak.

    Any time that the gun fires and does not reset or short strokes and does not reset, or just chuffs and does not reset, the problem is most likely a carrier that is too tight. Installing shims will not help. Shims only help if the bolt moves, hits an object but does not vent any air, and then cannot reset because the chamber is still fully charged. Most of the time the bolt always moves far enough to expose the vent hole, get rid of excess air, and then reset.

    For spring adjustment:

    You want to use the bolt spring that allows you to shoot about 20fps above the lowest velocity that the gun will cycle at. So, if you want to use the gun at 280fps, then your desired lower limit of operation is 260fps. Insert your long bolt spring. Turn the velocity adjuster down before you air up the valve. Then gradually turn up the velocity until the gun will cycle. This is your lower velocity. Measure it. If it is above 265fps, then you will need a shorter spring or you will need to clip the one you have (unless you have red one. They are usually in the correct range). If you clip a spring, only clip half a coil at a time and then try it using the same procedure of starting with a low velocity setting. Make sure you put the cut end of the spring towards the bolt. If you have the short spring installed, and the lower range is 30fps below the desired shooting velocity, I wouldn't worry about using a stiffer spring and would just go with the short bolt spring. If it was much lower than that, I would definitely clip a long spring to get closer to the desired range.

  28. #2188
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    lansing, Michigan
    Posts
    135
    Shims only help if the bolt moves, hits an object but does not vent any air, and then cannot reset because the chamber is still fully charged. Most of the time the bolt always moves far enough to expose the vent hole, get rid of excess air, and then reset.

    so this is what I believe is the issue. its when the ball does not totally chamber my bolt is hitting it and not resetting

  29. #2189
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    lansing, Michigan
    Posts
    135
    all fixed! I started from the beginning and well it was set up correctly but needed another shim strange enough I now have 4 shims in it and I can get the bolt to reset when it stops on a ball not fully chambered.

  30. #2190
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Halifax, N.S., Canada
    Posts
    7,368
    Quote Originally Posted by magman313 View Post
    all fixed! I started from the beginning and well it was set up correctly but needed another shim strange enough I now have 4 shims in it and I can get the bolt to reset when it stops on a ball not fully chambered.
    Shims should only be used if you pull the trigger and the bolt lip moves ahead of the sear tip but does not release any air. This would only happen if something was tight against the bolt face when you fired the gun. Each shim is only 0.01" thick, so any movement at all usually allows the bolt to get past this distance anyway. If any air was released at all from the bolt, then shims will not help your setup. They might mask the problem for a while, but it will come back, usually in the middle of a game at the most inconvenient time.

    In your case, if the bolt hit a half chambered ball, then chances are that it moved past the shim distance anyway. You can check the distance setting in your setup by holding a squeegie or dowel against the bolt face. Do this without any shims installed. Pull the trigger and slowly release pressure on the squeegie allowing the bolt to move forward. You should be able to get a good feel for how far the bolt moves before it can vent air and how gentle it is. Since I am comfortable with my setup, I use my finger down through the feedneck. It gives me more direct feedback.

    I have never seen a mag need 4 shims in order to reset properly, although since it isn't leaking while at rest, perhaps your setup is out of spec for some reason and it does need the shims. What rail and body are you using?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •