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Thread: ** Official Level 10 Problems Thread **

  1. #1441
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    Quote Originally Posted by vin
    I played the spydermag yesterday and I didn't chop but I still got a stuck bolt twice, when firing fast. I spent the rest of the day purposely firing slow and got no more sticking, but I'm definitely going to switch to the lvl7 bolt. Hope you figure out the chopping thing,
    Vin
    It is possible that the dwell parameters are changing when you are rapid firing. Under rapid fire conditions the solenoid may not be able to stay fully engaged for the full duration of the dwell period if the power supply can't maintain full power to the circuit. The smaller battery used on the spyder mag doesn't have a big capacity for instantaneous current draw. That is why a large capacitor is used with the board to help maintain a reserve of power to help take some of the power load off the battery.

    Do you have a ULT installed? Maybe you need to adjust the shims in it. If not, then you probably need a ULT to reduce the load on the solenoid.
    Except for the Automag in front, its usually the man behind the equipment that counts.

  2. #1442

    Cool

    I thought the same thing, but I use a six pack of AA batteries and had the same problem. It does have a ULT too.
    Thanks for the great idea. What do you think of using the lvl7?
    Cheer,
    Vin

  3. #1443
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    Quote Originally Posted by vin
    I thought the same thing, but I use a six pack of AA batteries and had the same problem. It does have a ULT too.
    Thanks for the great idea. What do you think of using the lvl7?
    Cheer,
    Vin
    What is your dwell set to? Try 15ms and work down from there in 1 second increments and see if it stops sticking.

    Try removing a shim from the ULT.

  4. #1444
    I never tried removing a UTL shimm- I'll try both, Thanks!
    What do you think of using the lvl7?
    Vin

  5. #1445
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    Quote Originally Posted by vin
    I never tried removing a UTL shimm- I'll try both, Thanks!
    What do you think of using the lvl7?
    Vin
    With eyes, it will work fine. I like to use the level 10 in all setups just for the added benefits of antichop for all occasions that you may need it, even if the eyes don't work and you have to disable them.

  6. #1446
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    iseam to have only two carrier options one line and then one dot before my oring goes bad and it does that about every 2000 shots or so is this normal. other than that my level 10 works great. thanks jim





    rockin' a mag since '91
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  7. #1447
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    Quote Originally Posted by muskratjim
    iseam to have only two carrier options one line and then one dot before my oring goes bad and it does that about every 2000 shots or so is this normal. other than that my level 10 works great. thanks jim
    What do you mean by goes bad? What is happening to the condition of the oring? Explain your level 10 setup and the symptoms of your failure.

    They usually last quite a long time. My level 10 carrier oring probably has over 150000 shots on it.

  8. #1448

    I'm good

    Well, I finally got my SpyderMag running sweet.
    I just shot it out a case and it stopped leaking.
    Thanks for all the help!
    Vin

  9. #1449
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    my level ten starts with a new oring and the one line carrier, after about 2000 or so shots it begins to leak down the barrel so i switch to the one dot carrier.(i belive that to be the next step down) after about another 2000-3000 shot it begins to leak also soi switch to the blank carrier and maybe get another 2000 before i have to start over with a new oring and the first carrier. all other carriers with a new oring installed leak imeditatly so my first option is the one line carrier. hope that explains whats going wrong with my level ten, or is this normal later jim



    rockin' the mag since '91

  10. #1450
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    Question Trying to retune lvl 10 w/ ULT

    Ok, I am currently using a RT Pro ULE which came with the lvl X bolt preinstalled and tuned, as well as the ULT. I have installed a palmer stabilizer, which is still breaking in, and so tends to settle around 750 psi during use despite being reset to 850 psi whenever I have the chance. I use a crossfire 68ci 4500 psi tank preregulated to 850-900 psi.
    My initial issue was bolt stick, where anytime it was not extremely oiled (ie, six drops in the ASA before every individual game), the trigger would fail to reseat.
    I disassembled the bolt, and, following the initial installation instructions on my CD, found that the shortest spring had been installed, which is designed for ~250 fps, and I use ~280 fps exculsively, so I installed the red spring, which I -think- is the medium spring? I also found that the spacer preinstalled was way too small (one dot), and had a small amount of black buildup on the brass side, which I disregarded for the moment, as it did not seem to be in the inside diameter of the oring. I went up two sizes (to one line and one dot) to the size that seemed to slide easily over the pin, but not slide on its own with gravity. I reoiled only the part called out in the manual, namely the black o-ring around the carrier. I kept the two shims originally installed since I never exhibit leaking down the barrel as far as I can tell.
    Testing the changes is tough, since I live in dense suburbs where there are no convenient open areas to set up my own chrono, or stores nearby with indoor ranges to test it. I left the velocity adjust as set before changing the spring and dryfired the gun rapidly a few times, with my ASA leaking(it regularly damages tank orings when I remove the tank.) The results were similar but not quite the same as before. This time when i lost trigger pressure, I would hear a faint hissing noise before the trigger would click back into place. I also noted a definite change in the gun noise, to a softer, less sharp pop, I am guessing due to the longer spring. The response trigger also seemed a little less crisp, again, I think, due to the smaller period the bolt is spending open with the longer spring. Is the present issue likely to correct itself once I adjust the velocity to 280-290 fps and get a tight tank seal, or does it indicate a separate issue? I haven't touched the ULT's setup for fear that it would even further complicate troubleshooting, so all I can tell about it is there is one shim leftover in the plastic bag along with a couple spare (I hope) orings.

  11. #1451
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    Quote Originally Posted by muskratjim
    my level ten starts with a new oring and the one line carrier, after about 2000 or so shots it begins to leak down the barrel so i switch to the one dot carrier.(i belive that to be the next step down) after about another 2000-3000 shot it begins to leak also soi switch to the blank carrier and maybe get another 2000 before i have to start over with a new oring and the first carrier. all other carriers with a new oring installed leak imeditatly so my first option is the one line carrier. hope that explains whats going wrong with my level ten, or is this normal later jim



    rockin' the mag since '91
    Good explaination. I don't know what might be causing the problem though.

    Try removing all shims from your level 10 when you set it up. See if that helps. Also, take piece of fine grit sand paper (400 grit or higher) and smooth the small part of the bolt stem incase there is an imperfection.

  12. #1452
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    Quote Originally Posted by dreadpirate
    Ok, I am currently using a RT Pro ULE which came with the lvl X bolt preinstalled and tuned, as well as the ULT. I have installed a palmer stabilizer, which is still breaking in, and so tends to settle around 750 psi during use despite being reset to 850 psi whenever I have the chance. I use a crossfire 68ci 4500 psi tank preregulated to 850-900 psi.
    My initial issue was bolt stick, where anytime it was not extremely oiled (ie, six drops in the ASA before every individual game), the trigger would fail to reseat.
    I disassembled the bolt, and, following the initial installation instructions on my CD, found that the shortest spring had been installed, which is designed for ~250 fps, and I use ~280 fps exculsively, so I installed the red spring, which I -think- is the medium spring? I also found that the spacer preinstalled was way too small (one dot), and had a small amount of black buildup on the brass side, which I disregarded for the moment, as it did not seem to be in the inside diameter of the oring. I went up two sizes (to one line and one dot) to the size that seemed to slide easily over the pin, but not slide on its own with gravity. I reoiled only the part called out in the manual, namely the black o-ring around the carrier. I kept the two shims originally installed since I never exhibit leaking down the barrel as far as I can tell.
    Testing the changes is tough, since I live in dense suburbs where there are no convenient open areas to set up my own chrono, or stores nearby with indoor ranges to test it. I left the velocity adjust as set before changing the spring and dryfired the gun rapidly a few times, with my ASA leaking(it regularly damages tank orings when I remove the tank.) The results were similar but not quite the same as before. This time when i lost trigger pressure, I would hear a faint hissing noise before the trigger would click back into place. I also noted a definite change in the gun noise, to a softer, less sharp pop, I am guessing due to the longer spring. The response trigger also seemed a little less crisp, again, I think, due to the smaller period the bolt is spending open with the longer spring. Is the present issue likely to correct itself once I adjust the velocity to 280-290 fps and get a tight tank seal, or does it indicate a separate issue? I haven't touched the ULT's setup for fear that it would even further complicate troubleshooting, so all I can tell about it is there is one shim leftover in the plastic bag along with a couple spare (I hope) orings.
    First thing to do is get rid of the stabilizer. Each regulator should have at least 200psi of pressure difference in order to maintain good flow response. A level 10 can operate up around 550psi so the output from the stabilizer would have to be higher than 750psi. In turn, the output from your bottle would have to be higher than 950psi. Most bottles operate between 800 and 850psi. Your best bet is to remove the stabilizer. The mag, as with most guns, only requires two regulators (mag valve reg and bottle reg) for good stability anyway.

    It sounds like you are still getting bolt stick with your new setup. Try the next larger carrier size. Remove the shims to make sure they don't interfer and cause any leaking with the bigger carrier. You can put them back in later after you determine that the carrier size is correct and working properly.

    You are correct in putting the red spring in place. It will be softer on paint but it will accentuate any sticking issues that may be present just like you are experiencing now. Once you find the correct sizes and settings, the red spring will work very well. Using the red spring, you will have to increase the velocity setting to bring the gun back up to the proper velocity. Using the same velocity setting as with the small spring, you will starve the gun for air and it may not shoot properly.

  13. #1453
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    Lvl 10 bolt spring problem

    I have an early X-valve which came with my gun and it will only fire with the gold lvl 10 spring. If I put the red in and raise the velocity it will start to vent out the velocity adjustment hole.

    Im positive I need a new regulator piston assy, but how do I go about installing it?

  14. #1454
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    Quote Originally Posted by chettacheez
    I have an early X-valve which came with my gun and it will only fire with the gold lvl 10 spring. If I put the red in and raise the velocity it will start to vent out the velocity adjustment hole.

    Im positive I need a new regulator piston assy, but how do I go about installing it?
    Remove the velocity adjuster from the back of the gun. Slide the regulator piston assembly out the back and insert the new one in its place.

  15. #1455
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    Quote Originally Posted by athomas
    First thing to do is get rid of the stabilizer. Each regulator should have at least 200psi of pressure difference in order to maintain good flow response. A level 10 can operate up around 550psi so the output from the stabilizer would have to be higher than 750psi. In turn, the output from your bottle would have to be higher than 950psi. Most bottles operate between 800 and 850psi. Your best bet is to remove the stabilizer. The mag, as with most guns, only requires two regulators (mag valve reg and bottle reg) for good stability anyway.

    It sounds like you are still getting bolt stick with your new setup. Try the next larger carrier size. Remove the shims to make sure they don't interfer and cause any leaking with the bigger carrier. You can put them back in later after you determine that the carrier size is correct and working properly.

    You are correct in putting the red spring in place. It will be softer on paint but it will accentuate any sticking issues that may be present just like you are experiencing now. Once you find the correct sizes and settings, the red spring will work very well. Using the red spring, you will have to increase the velocity setting to bring the gun back up to the proper velocity. Using the same velocity setting as with the small spring, you will starve the gun for air and it may not shoot properly.
    Alright, well, once I can get someplace with a range, I shall have to play around with all that again. What about oiling, is it possible I simply failed to oil sufficiently while putting it back together?
    As far as the stabilizer goes, the manual that came with the gun says 750 psi supply pressure is ideal, otherwise if it is to high, rapidfire shots will be hot, due to the friction created by the quick recharge, which is problem I've experienced once before. Chronoing in at 260 fps, I was having accuracy problems at the time, but when I shot a quick burst, I put a very hot, three shot grouping the size of a gold dollar right over a guy's kidney from behind and just about got ejected from the field. I -have- noticed that the stabilizer's pressure tends to hunt somewhat during play though. I'll start at 750-800 and partway through the day, it will rise to 850 and then drop again. Ah well, if it won't work, I have been looking to add one to my old Spyder Basic, I hear they work miracles for CO2 guns. And besides, its at an age where it attracts almost more attention on the field than my automag ever will, hehe.

  16. #1456
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    Quote Originally Posted by dreadpirate
    Alright, well, once I can get someplace with a range, I shall have to play around with all that again. What about oiling, is it possible I simply failed to oil sufficiently while putting it back together?
    As far as the stabilizer goes, the manual that came with the gun says 750 psi supply pressure is ideal, otherwise if it is to high, rapidfire shots will be hot, due to the friction created by the quick recharge, which is problem I've experienced once before. Chronoing in at 260 fps, I was having accuracy problems at the time, but when I shot a quick burst, I put a very hot, three shot grouping the size of a gold dollar right over a guy's kidney from behind and just about got ejected from the field. I -have- noticed that the stabilizer's pressure tends to hunt somewhat during play though. I'll start at 750-800 and partway through the day, it will rise to 850 and then drop again. Ah well, if it won't work, I have been looking to add one to my old Spyder Basic, I hear they work miracles for CO2 guns. And besides, its at an age where it attracts almost more attention on the field than my automag ever will, hehe.
    I think you've missed the point, here. The Palmer Stabilizer is a regulator. It's meant to be used on markers that require a regulator, such as the Pirahna or Spyder, or others of that bolt type. The Automag valve system has an integrated regulator. You want to get as much pressure as possible from your tank to your Mag valve. The more pressure you have going in to the valve, the better the Mag will perform for you.
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  17. #1457
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    Quote Originally Posted by dreadpirate
    .... What about oiling, is it possible I simply failed to oil sufficiently while putting it back together?
    As far as the stabilizer goes, the manual that came with the gun says 750 psi supply pressure is ideal, otherwise if it is to high, rapidfire shots will be hot, due to the friction created by the quick recharge, which is problem I've experienced once before. Chronoing in at 260 fps, I was having accuracy problems at the time, but when I shot a quick burst, I put a very hot, three shot grouping the size of a gold dollar right over a guy's kidney from behind and just about got ejected from the field. ....
    Oil helps overcome friction which in turn gives better consistency and helps compensate for parts that may stick due to friction.

    The manual for the valve was written for level 7 bolts which operate at 350 - 400psi. The level 10 valves operate at a much higher chamber pressure. Still, 750psi is fine for the input to the valve. However, the stabilizer adds a restriction to the line. To maintain air flow, you need at least 950psi into the stabilizer, which I doubt you have.

    Valves with level 10 bolts don't experience shoot up as much as level 7 valves due to the fact that they operate with a reduced pressure differential between bottle psi and chamber psi.

  18. #1458
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    Quote Originally Posted by athomas
    Oil helps overcome friction which in turn gives better consistency and helps compensate for parts that may stick due to friction.

    The manual for the valve was written for level 7 bolts which operate at 350 - 400psi. The level 10 valves operate at a much higher chamber pressure. Still, 750psi is fine for the input to the valve. However, the stabilizer adds a restriction to the line. To maintain air flow, you need at least 950psi into the stabilizer, which I doubt you have.

    Valves with level 10 bolts don't experience shoot up as much as level 7 valves due to the fact that they operate with a reduced pressure differential between bottle psi and chamber psi.
    Ah, ok, well then, I guess my next question, since I'll be replacing the airline, is there any significant flow difference between the standard steel braided hoses, and macroline?
    So, back to the bolt stick, I swapped the carrier yet another size up, and it started leaking down the barrel while still exhibiting bolt stick, so finally threw out the oring and used a new one, with the second smallest carrier, which seems to be working fine.

  19. #1459
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    The stainless braided line is about the same size as macroline. So, they both have very good flow rates. Stainless braided line will last longer than macroline. Macroline will need to be replaced periodically, especially if it gets scraped or nicked. Be careful when you buy your macroline. A lot of stuff on the market is not rated high enough. You see guys at the fields that have macrolines that fail all the time due to the use of improperly rated macro line.

  20. #1460
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    Quote Originally Posted by athomas
    The stainless braided line is about the same size as macroline. So, they both have very good flow rates. Stainless braided line will last longer than macroline. Macroline will need to be replaced periodically, especially if it gets scraped or nicked. Be careful when you buy your macroline. A lot of stuff on the market is not rated high enough. You see guys at the fields that have macrolines that fail all the time due to the use of improperly rated macro line.
    Ok, well, the replaced o-ring didn't help. Despite the fact that it is so loose I can just feel the carrier o-ring wiggle on the power tube, it still frequently siezes, even when dry firing, though now it occasionally slowly clicks back into place. Once though, even using my swab, I could not reseat the bolt. Plus, as I mentioned earlier, even with the o-ring carrier so large it was causing leakby, the bolt was still sticking. Adding oil delays the problem for about 200 shots or so, so I don't think it could be getting hung up on a burr in the mainbody, nor can I see anything in there it could hang up on. The manual says that if it sticks when pinching a ball, I should add a shim, but as I said, it is sticking when dryfiring as well, and is especially more likely to stick when I short-stroke the ULT. So, this time I'm adding shims, as a different portion of the manual says to do, and will see how that works out when I can get to a field again.

  21. #1461
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    Quote Originally Posted by dreadpirate
    Ok, well, the replaced o-ring didn't help. Despite the fact that it is so loose I can just feel the carrier o-ring wiggle on the power tube, it still frequently siezes, even when dry firing, though now it occasionally slowly clicks back into place. Once though, even using my swab, I could not reseat the bolt. Plus, as I mentioned earlier, even with the o-ring carrier so large it was causing leakby, the bolt was still sticking. Adding oil delays the problem for about 200 shots or so, so I don't think it could be getting hung up on a burr in the mainbody, nor can I see anything in there it could hang up on. The manual says that if it sticks when pinching a ball, I should add a shim, but as I said, it is sticking when dryfiring as well, and is especially more likely to stick when I short-stroke the ULT. So, this time I'm adding shims, as a different portion of the manual says to do, and will see how that works out when I can get to a field again.
    It sounds like something just isn't fitting right. Problems like this can be really hard to diagnose. Make sure the body is sitting down properly on the rail. Make sure the bolt spring is not worn out. Make sure the ULT top on-off oring is not leaking. Check the powertube
    on your valve to make sure it didn't get bent. Check your bolt stem to make sure it didn't come loose or become bent. Check your regulator pin assembly to see if it isn't sticking. It can cause reset issues.

  22. #1462
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    You know ive heard some people having problems like this being caused by the ball detent being screwed in too tight .... try loosening/removing the ball detent and dry fire the gun.

  23. #1463
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    Quote Originally Posted by athomas
    It sounds like something just isn't fitting right. Problems like this can be really hard to diagnose. Make sure the body is sitting down properly on the rail. Make sure the bolt spring is not worn out. Make sure the ULT top on-off oring is not leaking. Check the powertube
    on your valve to make sure it didn't get bent. Check your bolt stem to make sure it didn't come loose or become bent. Check your regulator pin assembly to see if it isn't sticking. It can cause reset issues.
    Ok, I have verified already that each bolt piece is straight as far as I can tell. The magnetic detent does not -seem- to have any parts protruding too far, but I suppose it would make sense to throw some balls in my reloader and then back out the detent until the point just before the reloader begins feeding balls past it. Not sure how to check the regulator pin or ULT, and by making sure the body is sitting properly on the rail, do you mean the valve body in its groove, or the mainbody? I don't hear any leaking, so I'm fairly sure the ULT o-ring is good, or would it be too quiet to hear?

    After looking at a few other posts, I've been seeing descriptions of this gun as put together very tight, can't fit a sheet of paper between the body of the bolt, etc. I have about a 1/16" gap between the body and the bolt, could this be a cause?
    Last edited by dreadpirate; 06-05-2006 at 06:05 PM. Reason: Update

  24. #1464
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    Quote Originally Posted by dreadpirate
    Ok, I have verified already that each bolt piece is straight as far as I can tell. The magnetic detent does not -seem- to have any parts protruding too far, but I suppose it would make sense to throw some balls in my reloader and then back out the detent until the point just before the reloader begins feeding balls past it. Not sure how to check the regulator pin or ULT, and by making sure the body is sitting properly on the rail, do you mean the valve body in its groove, or the mainbody? I don't hear any leaking, so I'm fairly sure the ULT o-ring is good, or would it be too quiet to hear?

    After looking at a few other posts, I've been seeing descriptions of this gun as put together very tight, can't fit a sheet of paper between the body of the bolt, etc. I have about a 1/16" gap between the body and the bolt, could this be a cause?
    The regulator pin is the long pin that runs through the center of the inside of the valve. Some of these had a tendency to stick, which would result in what appears to be bolt stick but is actually a failure of the regulator to allow air to flow properly.

    The ULT oring causes leaking from the regulator into the front chamber. This causes bolt stick issues. You can't hear it leak unless you hold the trigger back after a shot. Unfortunately, with a level 10 there is always a tiny bit of residual leaking due to low chamber pressure, so it is hard to distinguish a ULT leak.

    The main body being properly seated is what I was referring to. If the pim (threaded nut on the bottom of the body) is too long or the hole it sits in is too shallow, it could cause issues even though it feels tight.

    Further issues should be discussed in the tech formum under it own heading. It will get more responses from other users which may help your trouble shooting.

  25. #1465
    hey folks! i dont think this is a problem but just want to make sure its working properly.first off i have an e-tac that i have yet to ues in a game.it came factory tuned with this level x set-up....short spring,1.0 carrier and three shims.it had about 2200 shots recorded.i moved to the red spring so that its a little softer on paint and to fire at slightly higher velocity.when i first installed the red spring i would not fire.after reading this sticky i realized duh!..turn the velocity up.it now fires fine.what i want to know if this is the way its supposed to work.....i put a squegee about 1/4" from the bolt and it stops and vents.it goes back some but does'nt fully seat untill i pull the trigger again.i removed one shim to see if i would improve.by improve i mean,the bolt resets itself as appose to having to pull the trigger.it actually got worse.i had to manually push the bolt back.other than that it shot fine.needless to say i put the shim back.i decided to add another shim,making it four,but i ran out of air.so...is it normal to have to pull the trigger to seat the bolt after preventing a chop or should it fully seat on it's own making the next trigger pull fire normally? it's not a big deal just want to make sure it's ok.thanks!

  26. #1466
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    themoose: What you have is a generic setup from the factory. Try one carrier size larger. Do it without any shims, just to make sure it doesn't leak. It should fire fine without any sticking. If it still sticks, go another carrier size larger. Once you get it working properly without the bolt sticking, you can put the shims back in.

    The shims aren't for the bolt resetting after a shot, they are there to allow the bolt to reset in the event that it moves forward slightly and stops on an obstacle. They fine tune the point at which the bolt is allowed to vent the excess air from the chamber. Most of the time the shims are not required. Most obstacles in the breach allow the bolt to travel past the vent point anyway, even without the shims.

  27. #1467
    Quote Originally Posted by athomas
    themoose: What you have is a generic setup from the factory. Try one carrier size larger. Do it without any shims, just to make sure it doesn't leak. It should fire fine without any sticking. If it still sticks, go another carrier size larger. Once you get it working properly without the bolt sticking, you can put the shims back in.
    thanks for your help.im not having a problem with the bolt sticking all the time.this is my problem(at least i think it's a problem)..."i put a squegee about 1/4" from the bolt and it stops and vents.it goes back some but does'nt fully seat untill i pull the trigger again.i removed one shim to see if i would improve.by improve i mean,the bolt resets itself as appose to having to pull the trigger.it actually got worse.i had to manually push the bolt back.other than that it shot fine.needless to say i put the shim back".... this only happens when i put a squegee or my finger in front of the bolt.other than that it shoots flawlessly.is it normal to have to pull the trigger to seat the bolt after preventing a chop or should it fully seat on it's own making the next trigger pull fire normally?

  28. #1468
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    Quote Originally Posted by themoose
    i put a squegee about 1/4" from the bolt and it stops and vents.it goes back some but does'nt fully seat untill i pull the trigger again.
    Bolt stick. Go to a larger carrier size.

  29. #1469
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    I dont know if this has been covered in here, I read a lot of the pages, but stuff starts to overlap.

    If you try to put your bolt on after adding shims or changing the carrier, and it wont go all the way back on, don't force it. I found that going to a larger carrier fixes this problem.

    hope that helps

  30. #1470
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    Alright, so here it is: I bought a lvl 10 kit from a friend (it was still fresh-new) but it doesn't work. I have put in all the necissary parts but it happends **** when I pull the trigger. I feel a resistence in the trigger but it won't fire. If I turn up the velocity it gets harder but it refuses to fire. It fired once, with one of the longer springs and the velocity at max, but then the regulator ****ed away and the started to flow out of every hole on the marker.

    So, what is the problem? how do I solve it? or should I just get something more simple that I can't break, like a Angel?

    (By the way, I'm so sorry for my bad English.)
    I'm a Swede, please excuse my language.

    Playing in Gothenburg Aftermath

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