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Thread: ** Official Level 10 Problems Thread **

  1. #1531
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bangalore
    I have put all of the carriers in, even the largest (one with four grooves) and dont have any leaks. I tried the one wiht 2 mostly. My velocity is as far up as it will go. I have tried the bolt with just the spring on it, and can use my finger to slide it and it moves freely, but once I put the valve and reg in with the level 10, it just sits there at the back of the breach. The trigger feelslike it has air, but not solid, kind of like what I expect it should feel like with the level 10 pinching a ball., but when I pull the trigger, nothing, and when I say nothing, I mean nothing, no sound, no leaks, no response at all. When I put everything back stock, it rocks as usual. Any ideas. Is it possilbe that the bolt is getting stuck on the powertube somehow, because it just doesn't feel very free when it bottoms out. Incidentally, when the piston inside the bolt grows in size,( about halfway up the bolt) noe of the carriers will fit over. Im sure that is normal, but I'm desperate for an answer.
    Sounds like you are doing everything right. Do you have any external regulators on your mag or are you using a low output tank? Do you know the output pressure of your tank?

    The carriers only fit over the small portion of the bolt stem. There shouldn't be anything that makes it feel like it is sticking. Check the powertube for obstructions. Maybe an oring is lodged down there.
    Except for the Automag in front, its usually the man behind the equipment that counts.

  2. #1532

    Micromag wiht level 10 does nothing

    no external reg, tank is a wgp 50ci 300 psi tank set to 800-850 psi output

    have been in the powertube and there appears to be nothing

    no external regs,

    will check the powertube again later and repost, but right now im 90% sure that there is nothing there

    any other ideas

  3. #1533
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    You don't have a rental valve by any chance?

    Try a new carrier o-ring. Maybe the one you have is tighter than it should be, even with the biggest carrier. Is the bolt bumper in place?

    Try to see if the sear is releasing the bolt. Maybe the trigger rod needs adjusting to give more travel. Check your trigger rod length. There should be just a slight gap behind the trigger when the gun is gassed and the trigger is forward.

  4. #1534
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    Question

    I don't think this is a lvl 10 problem... but I think it's a X-Valve problem...

    My gun is acting up.. I was given some hints to try taking out the on/off and oiled the on/off pin... I then unscrewed the velocity a bunch and when I aired it up it wasn't enough to be able to fire it. I turned it up some and then I was able to fire it... but after every fire it sounded like it was recharging or airing up for the first time and it started to leak out of the front a little bit... I hear a loud click noise (almost as if its the on/off sliding and hitting the body inside or something) After the click I can fire it again but then it leaks out of the front some and it does this every time… its a loud click or clank noise... louder then I'm used to hearing...

    please help

    Thanks

  5. #1535
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Don_83
    ....but after every fire it sounded like it was recharging or airing up for the first time and it started to leak out of the front a little bit... I hear a loud click noise (almost as if its the on/off sliding and hitting the body inside or something) After the click I can fire it again but then it leaks out of the front some and it does this every time… its a loud click or clank noise... louder then I'm used to hearing...
    The loud click is most likely the bolt hitting against the sear. Thats normal, especially if there is no air in the front chamber due to the leak out the front like you explained.

    Your problem could definately be caused by bolt stick due to a carrier that is too tight or a bolt spring that is worn out. Try a fresh bolt spring and find the correct carrier size without any shims in the powertube. It wouldn't hurt to give the valve a complete cleaning at the same time. A piece of dirt could cause all sorts of problems.

  6. #1536
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    nvm, got it

  7. #1537

    Velocity/accuracy problems

    Don't know if this is a Level 10 problem, an x-valve problem, or something else Marker is Tac One with SpecOps Q-Bow package. Got it second hand but appears very new. Been through the Level 10 instructions, using #1 carrier to get no leaks, new o ring. Two shims. I don't know what the difference between the two longer springs is, one is red and one is plain. Have the plain one in, can hear bolt "stop" occasionally, but also sometimes chop, at high rof. Input pressure around 850. Using chrono procedure listed elsewhere, velocity varies from high 260's to occasionally just over 300 at 1-2 shot/second or so. Higher rof more consistent but still 270-285. Ball impacts have noticeable vertical stringing.

    I have been advised to look for a classic valve for my play style, which is 5-6 bps or less, usually slow single shots or 3 rd bursts. Have also been advised to add regulator to remote line and reduce input pressure. Trigger is a little floppy, should it be tighter, make a difference?

    Need the accuracy. Bought this as a sniper marker due to firepower flexibility, no hopper on top, and quieter sound signature. Right now my A5 with Stabilizer can outshoot it any day. Help!

    Snake

  8. #1538
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    Spring differences

    Ok everyone,

    I understand the longer the spring, the gentler the bolt on the paint.

    I also understand the longer the spring the less efficent the Mag is using HPA.

    My new X-Valve is now working great with no leaks or bolt stick. It is shooting a consistent 280, which is the limit for most fields I play at. I am currently using the longest spring as a result of some crappy paint last scenario game I was in.

    I'm guessing the middle spring would be a good all around performer if I could only ever choose one. I am thinking this because the middel spring would be gentler on the paint that the smallest one, but a bit more efficent with air than the longer one.

    1st questions; Can I just change out my longest spring for the middle spring? I consequently have to decrease the velocity a bit, correct? A lower velocity would mean less pressure on the bolt, so would this increase my chance of bolt stick?

    My last question is this; Does a longer spring verses a shorter spring coincide with rates of fire? Or am I overthinking this?

    Thanks everyone, Jason

  9. #1539
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    Quote Originally Posted by finnmanpa
    1st questions; Can I just change out my longest spring for the middle spring? I consequently have to decrease the velocity a bit, correct? A lower velocity would mean less pressure on the bolt, so would this increase my chance of bolt stick?

    My last question is this; Does a longer spring verses a shorter spring coincide with rates of fire? Or am I overthinking this?
    Yes, you can change springs easily without any other modifications. All you have to do is re-adjust the velocity setting. Bolt stick wouldn't be a problem unless there is a problem with your setup of the level 10, so you should be fine. If you are firing fine with the longest spring, then you shouldn't have any problems with bolt stick with either of the other two springs.

    The bolt spring can affect the rate of fire but not that you would notice. The longer spring slows down the bolt speed so the cycle time is increased. The rate of fire is still higher than a lot of markers on the market.

  10. #1540
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    Quote Originally Posted by snake_tzu
    Don't know if this is a Level 10 problem, an x-valve problem, or something else Marker is Tac One with SpecOps Q-Bow package. Got it second hand but appears very new. Been through the Level 10 instructions, using #1 carrier to get no leaks, new o ring. Two shims. I don't know what the difference between the two longer springs is, one is red and one is plain. Have the plain one in, can hear bolt "stop" occasionally, but also sometimes chop, at high rof. Input pressure around 850. Using chrono procedure listed elsewhere, velocity varies from high 260's to occasionally just over 300 at 1-2 shot/second or so. Higher rof more consistent but still 270-285. Ball impacts have noticeable vertical stringing.

    I have been advised to look for a classic valve for my play style, which is 5-6 bps or less, usually slow single shots or 3 rd bursts. Have also been advised to add regulator to remote line and reduce input pressure. Trigger is a little floppy, should it be tighter, make a difference?

    Need the accuracy. Bought this as a sniper marker due to firepower flexibility, no hopper on top, and quieter sound signature. Right now my A5 with Stabilizer can outshoot it any day. Help!

    Snake
    Your xvalve will probably be more consistent once the orings in the regulator part are broken in.

    If you have the grey long spring then you are using the stiffest spring which could cause some inconsistencies in the velocity range you are shooting. You may want to install the red spring and readjust the the velocity setting to the desired value.

    The "chops" you are experiencing are more likely due to barrel breaks. What is the size of the paint vs the barrel? A ball that is too large can break as it is being pushed into the barrel. They look a lot like chops. Chops most often occur over 10 bps. Under 10bps and most hopper systems with a motorized or spring loaded feed can keep up no problem, so these breaks are probably barrel or detent related.

    Your style of play does lend itself to an AIR valve rather than an xvalve. The retro valve velocity is set to compensate for heating during recharge at high rates of fire. The air cools after a few seconds of sitting so your velocity would be lower as well. The retro valve is meant to be fired fast. An AIR valve velocity remains constant no matter how fast you are shooting. If you install a retro/x valve on-off assembly in an AIR valve you can reduce the trigger pull to 2lbs like the retro valve. You just won't get the reactive trigger. In summary, if you want single shot and rapid shot to shot consistency for "sniping", you want an AIR valve. Keep your xvalve and buy a second hand AIR/classic valve to drop in. They are inexpensive used. That way you can enjoy the best of both worlds if needed.

    Don't add another regulator to your setup. The mag is already a dual reg system, the bottle reg and the valve reg. Adding a 3rd reg would only starve the gun for air.

  11. #1541
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    Quote Originally Posted by athomas
    Yes, you can change springs easily without any other modifications. All you have to do is re-adjust the velocity setting. Bolt stick wouldn't be a problem unless there is a problem with your setup of the level 10, so you should be fine. If you are firing fine with the longest spring, then you shouldn't have any problems with bolt stick with either of the other two springs.

    The bolt spring can affect the rate of fire but not that you would notice. The longer spring slows down the bolt speed so the cycle time is increased. The rate of fire is still higher than a lot of markers on the market.
    OK, thanks for the advice. Now I have another issue I'm stumped with. When I first set up my Level 10 last Oct, I used 2 shims and the single dot carrier (.5?) i think it's called

    With that set-up it didn't leak, but I got bolt stick, as in the bolt wouldn't fire for like 5 or 6 trigger pulls. I called AGD on this, and they said to add a shim, which solved the problem.

    Been playing fine with .05 carrier and three shims all winter indoors, like 4 times a month since Oct.

    Well this weekend I started getting the bolt stick again!! Like every game. I do always keep everything lubed up. I tried adding a 4th shim but that didn't solve it. I've tried swapping out the carrier o-rings but that didn't solve it. I tried going up one carrier size but it leaks like crazy then out the front of the bolt.

    Current; 4 shims, single dot carrier (.5?)

    Is there a possibility that this has nothing to do with the bolt and that my on/off assembly or pin is tight? I do feel resistence when I pull the trigger, but the gun doesn't fire till 5 or 6 trigger pulls later.

    I'm getting tired of having the jump on guys but getting shot out because my gun won't fire first.

  12. #1542
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    Quote Originally Posted by finnmanpa
    OK, thanks for the advice. Now I have another issue I'm stumped with. When I first set up my Level 10 last Oct, I used 2 shims and the single dot carrier (.5?) i think it's called

    With that set-up it didn't leak, but I got bolt stick, as in the bolt wouldn't fire for like 5 or 6 trigger pulls. I called AGD on this, and they said to add a shim, which solved the problem.

    Been playing fine with .05 carrier and three shims all winter indoors, like 4 times a month since Oct.

    Well this weekend I started getting the bolt stick again!! Like every game. I do always keep everything lubed up. I tried adding a 4th shim but that didn't solve it. I've tried swapping out the carrier o-rings but that didn't solve it. I tried going up one carrier size but it leaks like crazy then out the front of the bolt.

    Current; 4 shims, single dot carrier (.5?)

    Is there a possibility that this has nothing to do with the bolt and that my on/off assembly or pin is tight? I do feel resistence when I pull the trigger, but the gun doesn't fire till 5 or 6 trigger pulls later.

    I'm getting tired of having the jump on guys but getting shot out because my gun won't fire first.
    Adding a shim helps with bolt stick only if the gun chuffs and won't reset properly. Shims usually don't help when the gun won't fire at all. That is generally caused by a carrier that is too tight. Remove all the shims, increase your carrier size until you can use the largest one that doesn't leak. Always use the same carrier oring that you have been using. You can then add shims again once you find the proper carrier size. If you increase the carrier size with shims still installed, it can leak due to too many shims even though you have the proper size carrier.

  13. #1543
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    Quote Originally Posted by athomas
    Adding a shim helps with bolt stick only if the gun chuffs and won't reset properly. Shims usually don't help when the gun won't fire at all. That is generally caused by a carrier that is too tight. Remove all the shims, increase your carrier size until you can use the largest one that doesn't leak. Always use the same carrier oring that you have been using. You can then add shims again once you find the proper carrier size. If you increase the carrier size with shims still installed, it can leak due to too many shims even though you have the proper size carrier.
    Thanks again, I will try this and see what happens.

  14. #1544
    Quote Originally Posted by athomas
    Adding a shim helps with bolt stick only if the gun chuffs and won't reset properly. Shims usually don't help when the gun won't fire at all. That is generally caused by a carrier that is too tight. Remove all the shims, increase your carrier size until you can use the largest one that doesn't leak. Always use the same carrier oring that you have been using. You can then add shims again once you find the proper carrier size. If you increase the carrier size with shims still installed, it can leak due to too many shims even though you have the proper size carrier.

    athomas: please, what do you mean by "Always use the same carrier oring that you have been using"? in my lx kit, each carrier has an o-ring already on it...

    thanks in advance!

  15. #1545
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    Quote Originally Posted by peeeto
    athomas: please, what do you mean by "Always use the same carrier oring that you have been using"? in my lx kit, each carrier has an o-ring already on it...

    thanks in advance!
    The black outside oring only seals the outside of the carrier from leaking. The "carrier oring" that is affected by the different sized carriers is the white one that fits inside the carrier. Its this white one that must be transfered from carrier to carrier when changing sizes.

  16. #1546
    gotcha - i see now. thank you for clearing that up.

  17. #1547

    Brand New TAC One Lvl 10 Leak Problem

    Bought a new tac one from AGD themselves and thought that they factory tuned the lvl 10 bolt before shipping out. I even got a receipt of a factory chrono. As soon as I set up my air supply I had a very loud leak coming from the bolt area. I assumed it was in my braided steel/elbows themselves despite everything be plumber taped and screwed in very tight. So I spent my early trouble shooting days swapping those things out and re-plumber taping everything only to get the variables limited down to something internal. So then I realized they must NOT of tuned the bolt. So I proceeded with the typical carrier/shim trial and error and have tried EVERY combination of Carrier with no shims and then each carrier with 1,2,3,4,5 shims. I also tried all of my O-rings for the carriers... otherwise I don't have any other 0-rings that I can replace in the setup without buying a parts kit.

    Through spending countless hours on this forum it led me to air it up and pull the trigger and hold it back and see if the leak stopped. It does when I do this.... which also said that is a carrier/shim problem.... BUT I'VE ALREADY TRIED EVERY COMBINATION!!!! Now I was able to greatly reduce the leak from what it was how the factory had set it up... where's it's at now it will start really quiet almost where you can't hear it and just get louder and louder until it is a pretty decent sssshhhhhhh..... noise if that helps you guys. I know it can also be the power tube o-ring but I don't have ANY to swap it out with currently AND this is brand new AND I closely inspected it and can't see any nicks or problems with it, it looks like a solid o-ring. DOES ANYBODY HAVE ANY IDEAS??? I'm probably going to be buying a parts kit but I'm at the end of my sanity.

    Thanks in advance,
    Shadow Death

  18. #1548
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Death
    Bought a new tac one from AGD themselves and thought that they factory tuned the lvl 10 bolt before shipping out. I even got a receipt of a factory chrono. As soon as I set up my air supply I had a very loud leak coming from the bolt area. I assumed it was in my braided steel/elbows themselves despite everything be plumber taped and screwed in very tight. So I spent my early trouble shooting days swapping those things out and re-plumber taping everything only to get the variables limited down to something internal. So then I realized they must NOT of tuned the bolt. So I proceeded with the typical carrier/shim trial and error and have tried EVERY combination of Carrier with no shims and then each carrier with 1,2,3,4,5 shims. I also tried all of my O-rings for the carriers... otherwise I don't have any other 0-rings that I can replace in the setup without buying a parts kit.

    Through spending countless hours on this forum it led me to air it up and pull the trigger and hold it back and see if the leak stopped. It does when I do this.... which also said that is a carrier/shim problem.... BUT I'VE ALREADY TRIED EVERY COMBINATION!!!! Now I was able to greatly reduce the leak from what it was how the factory had set it up... where's it's at now it will start really quiet almost where you can't hear it and just get louder and louder until it is a pretty decent sssshhhhhhh..... noise if that helps you guys. I know it can also be the power tube o-ring but I don't have ANY to swap it out with currently AND this is brand new AND I closely inspected it and can't see any nicks or problems with it, it looks like a solid o-ring. DOES ANYBODY HAVE ANY IDEAS??? I'm probably going to be buying a parts kit but I'm at the end of my sanity.

    Thanks in advance,
    Shadow Death
    AGD does a generic setup. It should work for most instances but there are quite a few that seam to have problems. When checking for leaks due to carrier size, always remove all the shims. Shims move the carrier oring closer to the bolt stem bent hole so the chances of a static leak are increased with each shim added.

    There are 3 orings in the powertube. There is a little black one around the outside of the carrier. This one almost never leaks because it never moves and it is squeezed quite tight. The white one the goes just inside the powertube tip is just to keep tension on the tip so it doesn't come unscrewed. It will never cause a leak. The third oring is the small white carrier oring that fits inside the powertube carrier. When we change carriers during the tuning process always use the same oring.

    Make sure a piece of dirt or teflon tape didn't get caught somewhere it shouldn't be. Make sure you are using an air tank with a high pressure output.

  19. #1549
    So I have fixed the leak rather inadvertantly. I switched back to the smallest carrier and then aired up my bolt in hand rather than in the gun. (I have a quick disconnect nipple screwed right into the bolt). I was trying to hold the on/off in place with my fingers but didn't have a good enough grip so it slid out into my hand. So I unaired it, put the on/off back in the bolt (something I've done a million times) and reassembled the bolt back into the gun and aired it up and no leak. So definately an issue with the on/off, why simply taking it out and putting it back in fixed it when I had already done that I don't know, but a victory is a victory and I'll take it.

    Thanks for all your help,
    Shadow

  20. #1550
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Death
    So I have fixed the leak rather inadvertantly. I switched back to the smallest carrier and then aired up my bolt in hand rather than in the gun. (I have a quick disconnect nipple screwed right into the bolt). I was trying to hold the on/off in place with my fingers but didn't have a good enough grip so it slid out into my hand. So I unaired it, put the on/off back in the bolt (something I've done a million times) and reassembled the bolt back into the gun and aired it up and no leak. So definately an issue with the on/off, why simply taking it out and putting it back in fixed it when I had already done that I don't know, but a victory is a victory and I'll take it.

    Thanks for all your help,
    Shadow
    When you aired it up in your hand you may have inadvertently cleaned any debris out with compressed air. Glad to here you got it working.

  21. #1551

    Bolt Stick + Leak

    Ok, so I just installed a level 10 kit on a minimag with a centerflag hyper frame electronic grip frame. The problem is that when you stop the bolt with a finger or a paintball the bolt doesn't return to it's normal resting position and it vents air out of the bolt and has to be reset by removing the barrel and pushing the bolt back with your finger. I'm using the shortest spring because I couldn't get under 300fps and have the gun fire consistently with the long ones. The power tube oring is set correctly I believe, because the next carrier causes a leak. I currently have 4 shims installed and when I add the 5th, I get a leak. Any ideas?

    Thanks,
    Chris

  22. #1552
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    Quote Originally Posted by creemoney
    Ok, so I just installed a level 10 kit on a minimag with a centerflag hyper frame electronic grip frame. The problem is that when you stop the bolt with a finger or a paintball the bolt doesn't return to it's normal resting position and it vents air out of the bolt and has to be reset by removing the barrel and pushing the bolt back with your finger. I'm using the shortest spring because I couldn't get under 300fps and have the gun fire consistently with the long ones. The power tube oring is set correctly I believe, because the next carrier causes a leak. I currently have 4 shims installed and when I add the 5th, I get a leak. Any ideas?

    Thanks,
    Chris
    You have bolt stick due to a carrier that is too tight. The next size up causes a leak because you have too many shims installed. Remove all the shims, and use the largest carrier that does not leak. Always use the same carrier oring when changing carriers. If you still want to use shims, install them one at a time until it starts to leak. Then use 1 less than the number that leaks.

  23. #1553
    Quote Originally Posted by athomas
    You have bolt stick due to a carrier that is too tight. The next size up causes a leak because you have too many shims installed. Remove all the shims, and use the largest carrier that does not leak. Always use the same carrier oring when changing carriers. If you still want to use shims, install them one at a time until it starts to leak. Then use 1 less than the number that leaks.
    I guess I'll give that a try, but I don't know if that will work. I read the instructions first and I set the carrier first before adding any shims, as per the instructions. Not using the same oring in the carriers did trip me up at first, don't know why they don't specify that in the instructions. Any other thoughts.

  24. #1554
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    If it bolt sticks with the loosest carrier that won't leak, then the oring itself may be bad. Try another oring and go through the process again.

  25. #1555

    You win!

    Quote Originally Posted by athomas
    If it bolt sticks with the loosest carrier that won't leak, then the oring itself may be bad. Try another oring and go through the process again.
    Thats was it! I pulled out the first oring I tried and set it aside. I then retuned the carrier with a different oring and it works quite well. I guess sometimes the most basic fix is the answer. Thanks for all the input and help.

    Chris

  26. #1556

    No on/off

    Hi all,

    Last night I installed a used X-Valve and Level 10 that I ordered. When I gassed up the gun, it blows out the barrel. When I pulled it back out, I noticed two things:

    1) The hole where the on/off pin is on my Level 7 valve is empty. Is that correct? If not, can I use the on/off from my old valve somehow?

    2) The bolt is getting stuck on the back of the sear, which is stuck in an elevated position. I installed an Intelliframe at the same time as the Level 10, and I don't think it is moving the sear correctly.


    Thanks for your help.
    Last edited by roncova; 04-21-2007 at 02:45 PM.

  27. #1557
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    Quote Originally Posted by roncova
    Hi all,

    Last night I installed a used Level 10 that I ordered. When I gassed up the gun, it blows out the barrel. When I pulled it back out, I noticed two things:

    1) The hole where the on/off pin is on my Level 7 valve is empty. Is that correct? If not, can I use the on/off from my old valve somehow?

    2) The bolt is getting stuck on the back of the sear, which is stuck in an elevated position. I installed an Intelliframe at the same time as the Level 10, and I don't think it is moving the sear correctly.


    Thanks for your help.
    1. There definately needs to be an on-off assembly complete with pin or the valve will not function or hold air.

    2. Without the on-off pin there is nothing to push the sear back into place so the back of the sear will remain elevated.

  28. #1558
    Quote Originally Posted by athomas
    1. There definately needs to be an on-off assembly complete with pin or the valve will not function or hold air.

    2. Without the on-off pin there is nothing to push the sear back into place so the back of the sear will remain elevated.
    Pretty much what I figured. Do you happen to know if I can use the on/off from my Level 7 valve?

  29. #1559
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    Quote Originally Posted by roncova
    Pretty much what I figured. Do you happen to know if I can use the on/off from my Level 7 valve?
    A level 10 is just the bolt. The valve part is the same (classic L7 valve = classic L10 valve, L7 retro valve = L10 retro valve). So, yes, use the same on-off if using the same type of valve.

  30. #1560
    Quote Originally Posted by athomas
    A level 10 is just the bolt. The valve part is the same (classic L7 valve = classic L10 valve, L7 retro valve = L10 retro valve). So, yes, use the same on-off if using the same type of valve.
    Sorry, you're right. I had been using the wrong nomenclature. I have a L7 valve that was stock on my gun, and just bought a used X Valve. It appears that the old on/off assembly will not work, because the slot for it in the X Valve is threaded, and slightly narrower.

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