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Thread: ** Official Level 10 Problems Thread **

  1. #1951
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    Quote Originally Posted by codejunkie
    Sort of a level 10 problem I think. I just got a ult and tried to install it but after a few shots the marker would just start venting air down the barrel, so after toying with that for a good hour I decied to switch back to the old RT on/off and see if it that worked.

    I gassed up the marker an pulled the trigger once and it fired like 3 times before the bolt got stuck in halfway into the chamber and the marker started venting again. I also oiled it before the tests

    Any ideas are much appreciated
    Code
    The fact that it fired 3 times on a single shot before it stuck is a pretty good indication that its related to the on-off and not a level 10 problem. It is more reminiscent of an on-off or possibly a sear issue. Is the rail bushing in place? If nothing has changed, I suspect the problem is an on-off issue. Perhaps there is a piece of dirt struck in an oring.

    Even though it stuck forward with the RT on-off, fire it a few more times to seat the oring and blow out any excess oil.
    Except for the Automag in front, its usually the man behind the equipment that counts.

  2. #1952
    This is an xvalve #VV03762
    I believe this is a level 10 problem as i just bought a new on/off pin. i follow the AGD tuning guide and install the carrier that is just snug and 2 shims.
    with the short spring it barely puffs and just leaks.
    with the cut spring it goes forward and sticks.
    with the long spring no matter how high the velocity goes it wont fire at all.

    then i installed a ?level 3? bolt it was made before carriers it had a copper spring. it fired properly but it would act like a short stroke when you fired more than 5bps and not reset on the sear till you completely release the trigger.

    i had more than 1000psi in my tank when i was testing.
    Last edited by redfireant3; 01-16-2010 at 07:30 PM.

  3. #1953
    Kind of new to this but, sounds like bolt stick. Don't mess around with any other bolts and setups. Use just your level 10. I would start with the smallest carrier and move up until it leaks down the barrel. I would then replace that carrier with the next smallest. If you still have bolt stick, begin to shim the bolt. I believe this to be correct procedure. If I'm wrong someone let me know and I'll edit or remove.

  4. #1954
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    Quote Originally Posted by redfireant3
    This is an xvalve #VV03762
    I believe this is a level 10 problem as i just bought a new on/off pin. i follow the AGD tuning guide and install the carrier that is just snug and 2 shims.
    with the short spring it barely puffs and just leaks.
    with the cut spring it goes forward and sticks.
    with the long spring no matter how high the velocity goes it wont fire at all.

    then i installed a ?level 3? bolt it was made before carriers it had a copper spring. it fired properly but it would act like a short stroke when you fired more than 5bps and not reset on the sear till you completely release the trigger.

    i had more than 1000psi in my tank when i was testing.
    The old one is an older level 7 setup. The powertube springs were used before spacers. They aren't copper but have a copper color. Its was probably having bolt stick issues depending on the bolt spring you were using, or it could have been a powertube spring that was too short/worn. It needs a good bolt spring to operate properly. The short gold colored bolt spring is the one to use with this setup.

    For your level 10 setup:
    1) Remove all powertube shims. They do nothing except cause leaks when setting up your carriers. Shims do not affect how your level 10 bolt operates.
    2) Use the shortest gold colored bolt spring to start. You can change to the red one later. Springs don't affect the adjustment of the carriers. The springs only affect the force of the bolt and as a side effect, the minimum velocity that you can operate the gun at. If you install a bolt spring that is too stiff, the chamber pressure/velocity setting cannot overcome the pressure to move the bolt forward and fire the gun. This is what was happening in your setup with the silver spring.
    2) Install the largest carrier that does not leak when the trigger is released and the bolt is fully reset.
    3) When you change carriers, always use the same white carrier oring. It's the tension of this oring that you are adjusting when you change carrier sizes.
    4) Once you find the correct carrier size, your setup is good to go.
    5) install the correct bolt spring for the bolt force you want your setup to operate at. For optimum operation, your gun should operate at a velocity that is about 20 feet per second above the lowest velocity that the gun starts to shoot. ie; If the gun starts to cycle at 250 fps with the gold spring, then your optimum velocity would be 270 fps for maximum antichop. The gun will operate fine at anything above that velocity setting. By going to the next larger bolt spring you could increase the minimum operating velocity to 270 fps and thus your optimum velocity to 290 fps which would be a better fit for most people. These numbers are arbitrary. Select the bolt spring that allows your setup to operate in the velocity range you want. They all differ because of different barrels and such.
    6) If you so desire, install powertube shims. The adjust how far the bolt needs to travel in order to vent air and reset if the bolt encounters a jam directly in front of it. Most of the time, an object in the breach will always allow some movement and thus will allow the bolt to vent and reset. You should never need these shims. If your setup fires, or chuffs, or vents in any way, then shims will not help because changing where the bolt vents is all that shims do. They adjust in 0.01 of an inch, so 2 or three shims will be a pretty short distance adjustment. The bolt will almost always move at least that far no matter what anyway.

    Hopefully this helps.
    Last edited by athomas; 01-17-2010 at 11:22 AM.

  5. #1955
    ok no shims and a dot on the carrier is .5 i aired up pulling trigger and every size leaked till i removed air and aired up w/o pulling trigger:
    2.5 1 shot, leak down barrel, bolt stick
    2.0 1 shot, sorta leak down barrel, Boltstick
    1.5 1 shot, Boltstick
    1.0 1 shot, Boltstick
    .5 1 shot, Boltstick
    0 1 shot, Boltstick
    I used my digital caliper and just held the measurement for my gold spring is 1.80/1.82 in give or take coils.

    so, why wont my bolt return?

    *wait..... could it be my reg/piston? since it wouldnt fire at all when i used the long spring?
    Last edited by redfireant3; 01-18-2010 at 12:58 PM.

  6. #1956
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    Quote Originally Posted by redfireant3
    ok no shims and a dot on the carrier is .5 i aired up pulling trigger and every size leaked till i removed air and aired up w/o pulling trigger:
    2.5 1 shot, leak down barrel, bolt stick
    2.0 1 shot, sorta leak down barrel, Boltstick
    1.5 1 shot, Boltstick
    1.0 1 shot, Boltstick
    .5 1 shot, Boltstick
    0 1 shot, Boltstick
    I used my digital caliper and just held the measurement for my gold spring is 1.80/1.82 in give or take coils.

    so, why wont my bolt return?

    *wait..... could it be my reg/piston? since it wouldnt fire at all when i used the long spring?
    The silver spring requires a lot of chamber pressure. You may have to turn the velocity up quite high for it to work. Some older systems may not have the adjustment available. I wouldn't worry about it.

    It seems like 1.5 might be your carrier size.

    That fact that it leaked when you aired up the gun and held the trigger is a good indication that it is on-off related. If the on-off top oring is leaking, it could cause bolt stick issues as well. It is a small whitish urethane oring in the indentation inside the on-off hole of the valve.

    Is your rail bushing in place?

  7. #1957
    these are the springs I have i put the old level 7 for color compairison
    http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y16...3/DSC01205.jpg

    I tried both of the O-ring sets and they do the same thing
    the top on/off oring you mean this one or the one IN the on/off?
    http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y16...3/DSC01206.jpg

    as far as the marker/proper rail and body alignment the minimag level 7 valve works great on this marker and the old minimag body/rail and I do have the rail bushing in.
    Last edited by redfireant3; 01-18-2010 at 07:58 PM.

  8. #1958
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    Quote Originally Posted by redfireant3
    these are the springs I have i put the old level 7 for color compairison
    http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y16...3/DSC01205.jpg

    I tried both of the O-ring sets and they do the same thing
    the top on/off oring you mean this one or the one IN the on/off?
    http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y16...3/DSC01206.jpg

    as far as the marker/proper rail and body alignment the minimag level 7 valve works great on this marker and the old minimag body/rail and I do have the rail bushing in.
    I made a mistake on your valve. I was thinking yours was an older retro valve, not the X-valve that it is. I don't know why. I guess I was thinking about another valve at the time. Yours is definately not an older valve as I was referring to earlier.

    Yours does have the two orings on the top as shown in your pics. They are the ones I was talking about. Disregard that I was referring to a single top oring design, although dirt or a defect in the smaller oring could still have the same effect.

    For the springs, I have never seen a black one, but it is definately the right size to be a good level 7 bolt spring. The other two are the middle red spring and the equivalent cut spring that originally shipped as a middle spring. The cut spring is just a long silver spring with a coil cut off. The cut spring will only function if the flat end is against the bolt to keep it from twisting.

    Take the valve apart and do a complete cleaning of all internals, even though you may have just replaced all the orings. Clean and inspect all the orings as well. Just because they are new doesn't mean they are defect free. This includes the on-off, regulator section, and back section of the valve. A piece of dirt can cause all sorts of issues.

    What is the condition of the sear tip? Wear at the tip could cause leaking due to the bolt sitting farther forward.

  9. #1959
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    Quote Originally Posted by athomas
    I made a mistake on your valve. I was thinking yours was an older retro valve, not the X-valve that it is. I don't know why. I guess I was thinking about another valve at the time.
    Hehe...That happens to me quite often when I'm trying to help 3-4 people at a time

    Pull the lvl 10 off and install a lvl 7 or another lvl 10 on the X. Best way to trouble shoot is by completely removing the suspected problem.

    If it continues, you might have something wrong further down the reg or your setup (aftermarket body/rail combo, trigger sear spacing, worn sear or bolt).

    Try a different valve on the marker (preferably another X valve) and see if it's having the same issues, swapping out your lvl 10 with another will rule out a bolt issue if it's still sticking.

    Are you using this valve on a Micromag body?

    Quote Originally Posted by redfireant3
    *wait..... could it be my reg/piston? since it wouldnt fire at all when i used the long spring?
    Are you having leak issues out the back when you turn up the velocity anymore then what it's at?

  10. #1960
    ordered a new gold spring and o-ring kit. ill try again next week. what's suppossed to happen when you hold the trigger fully (in theroy) it works with my mini mag, I get that but on an X you have a top opening and a middle dump opening.

  11. #1961
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    Quote Originally Posted by redfireant3
    ordered a new gold spring and o-ring kit. ill try again next week. what's suppossed to happen when you hold the trigger fully (in theroy) it works with my mini mag, I get that but on an X you have a top opening and a middle dump opening.
    Except for the regulator, the valves operate in exactly the same manner. The middle hole part way up the on-off hole is pressure feedback only. It does not supply any air to the front chamber. The air still gets shut off by the on-off pin. When you hold the trigger, the gun should fire and then nothing until you release the trigger. With a level 10 bolt you will get a bit of seeping air for a couple of seconds when you hold the trigger. That's because the oring sealing points aren't held tight by the reduced air pressure.

  12. #1962
    ok got the kit in and boy was that reg valve pin fun... the top on/off oring is really really tight in the outer ring and once i do get them to press into each other it holds the on/off pin so tight it wont charge the pin at all if you dont angle the gun down so the sear holds the bolt. im sure i got the right sizes, the oring IN the on/off is super tiny and the top on/off is just a little tighter than the pin and the outer on on that is just big enough to press in the top on/off oring? also i have been using Air Tool oil, i always have for my PB markers.

    still, its like after the on/off pin is lifted the valve wont stop dumping. besides the on/off pin im guessing what seals off the dump chamber is the reg valve pin? does that crown washer cup seal the back of the valve pin after a trigger pull??

    here are more pics after the o-ring change. the only ones i didnt change was carrier o-ring, power tube nut and lower threaded on/off o-ring. PLEASE tell me if there are wrong parts?

    Bolt & carrier & NEW spring
    http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y16...3/DSC01207.jpg
    on/off & powertube
    http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y16...3/DSC01208.jpg
    regulator
    http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y16...3/DSC01209.jpg
    sear is still good and i have no problem shooting the orginal minimag valve.
    http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y16...3/DSC01211.jpg
    extra o-rings? i know 2 are carrier o-rings and one might be powertube nut. but the tiny one?
    http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y16...3/DSC01210.jpg

  13. #1963
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    Quote Originally Posted by redfireant3
    ok got the kit in and boy was that reg valve pin fun... the top on/off oring is really really tight in the outer ring and once i do get them to press into each other it holds the on/off pin so tight it wont charge the pin at all if you dont angle the gun down so the sear holds the bolt. im sure i got the right sizes, the oring IN the on/off is super tiny and the top on/off is just a little tighter than the pin and the outer on on that is just big enough to press in the top on/off oring? also i have been using Air Tool oil, i always have for my PB markers.

    still, its like after the on/off pin is lifted the valve wont stop dumping. besides the on/off pin im guessing what seals off the dump chamber is the reg valve pin? does that crown washer cup seal the back of the valve pin after a trigger pull??

    here are more pics after the o-ring change. the only ones i didnt change was carrier o-ring, power tube nut and lower threaded on/off o-ring. PLEASE tell me if there are wrong parts?

    Bolt & carrier & NEW spring
    http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y16...3/DSC01207.jpg
    on/off & powertube
    http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y16...3/DSC01208.jpg
    regulator
    http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y16...3/DSC01209.jpg
    sear is still good and i have no problem shooting the orginal minimag valve.
    http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y16...3/DSC01211.jpg
    extra o-rings? i know 2 are carrier o-rings and one might be powertube nut. but the tiny one?
    http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y16...3/DSC01210.jpg
    The on-off orings should be snug but movable on the pin.

    Even if the regulator seat oring fails, the only path for the air is past the on-off pin. The other paths to the chamber are 1) blocked by two orings on the regulator valve pin assembly and 2) blocked by both the regulator seat oring and the regulator pin oring at the other end of the regulator valve pin assembly. You would need two orings to fail in series in both scenarios. Then, you would also get severe overpressure and a pressure release out the back.

    Is the white level 10 carrier oring facing the backing washer in the powertube?

    Is the rail bushing in place?

    And don't worry about the powertube tip oring. All it does is keep the tip from vibrating off. It doesn't seal anything.

  14. #1964
    rail bushing flush with rail

    yes carrier o-ring, facing white delrin oring, facing dump chamber.
    how bout this #2 says turn reg nut till it shoots or vents out back
    http://www.airgundesignsusa.com/debug.shtml#g3
    what if my tank doesnt output enough for an xvalve but barely enough for a minimag valve....?
    im using a 68/45 with a gen1 myth reg outputs 650psi still if it wasnt enough, when i run the reg nut out to the line the pin doesnt "make" it shoot till i slowly turn it up and i hear a click in the valve..... then i pull the trigger and bolt stick.
    Last edited by redfireant3; 01-22-2010 at 09:16 PM.

  15. #1965
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    Quote Originally Posted by redfireant3
    rail bushing flush with rail

    yes carrier o-ring, facing white delrin oring, facing dump chamber.
    how bout this #2 says turn reg nut till it shoots or vents out back
    http://www.airgundesignsusa.com/debug.shtml#g3
    what if my tank doesnt output enough for an xvalve but barely enough for a minimag valve....?
    im using a 68/45 with a gen1 myth reg outputs 650psi still if it wasnt enough, when i run the reg nut out to the line the pin doesnt "make" it shoot till i slowly turn it up and i hear a click in the valve..... then i pull the trigger and bolt stick.
    With it put together and aired up without a barrel, hold the bolt all the way back with a squeegie or something solid. Does it stop leaking or change the leak? The leak should go away, since the bolt will be totally plugging the airway out the front.

  16. #1966
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    Quote Originally Posted by redfireant3
    how bout this #2 says turn reg nut till it shoots or vents out back
    http://www.airgundesignsusa.com/debug.shtml#g3
    what if my tank doesnt output enough for an xvalve but barely enough for a minimag valve....?
    im using a 68/45 with a gen1 myth reg outputs 650psi still if it wasnt enough, when i run the reg nut out to the line the pin doesnt "make" it shoot till i slowly turn it up and i hear a click in the valve..... then i pull the trigger and bolt stick.
    Level 10 bolts operate at a higher chamber pressure. That is probably part or most of the problem, especially if the tank output is even a bit lower than it should be due to the regulator spring weakening with use.

  17. #1967
    ok, will hit the proshop with my old 48/3k crossfire tomorrow and if he lets me straight connect the scuba to the valve hehehehehh

  18. #1968
    getting closer i think. with the crossfire tank it doesnt leak when I hold the trigger but instead it fires once or full auto and i feel alot of springy pressure on the trigger and as high or low that I turn the velocity it does nothing till I take it apart. this time I see the oring that sits in the valve pin cup jammed into the reg opening (the recessed part big enough for the oring.)
    Last edited by redfireant3; 01-23-2010 at 04:44 PM.

  19. #1969
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    Quote Originally Posted by redfireant3
    getting closer i think. with the crossfire tank it doesnt leak when I hold the trigger but instead it fires once or full auto and i feel alot of springy pressure on the trigger and as high or low that I turn the velocity it does nothing till I take it apart. this time I see the oring that sits in the valve pin cup jammed into the reg opening (the recessed part big enough for the oring.)
    Where on the valve is this oring loose.

    See pic.

    <a href="http://s227.photobucket.com/albums/dd263/athomasan/?action=view&current=retrovalveinternaldiagram.jpg " target="_blank"><img src="http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd263/athomasan/retrovalveinternaldiagram.jpg" border="0" alt="retro valve internal diagram"></a>

  20. #1970
    "same as on/off o-ring" if i put that on the "reg valve pin assy" it fires once or full autos then it does nothing. (during air-up and holding trigger) I can see now it is ment to be pressed into that slot.

    -I can feel the trigger is charged but nothing happens when i pull it, (it just springs back in place)
    -velocity is all the way up.
    -I thought it might be the carrier I went from 1.5 all the way to 4 and still nothing.

    also- i wondered if my on/off was sealing so i put the valve in w/o a bolt and it was properly sealed with trigger pulled.
    Last edited by redfireant3; 01-23-2010 at 07:38 PM.

  21. #1971
    FIXED! sorta
    problem: irregular rail or bolt body.
    fix: loosen body screw to almost falling out and TIGHTEN field strip screw with allen key till fire correctly.

    tweaking though, it fires manual pulls fine. i get 2-3 RT shots off then it sticks, slowly repressurizes the on/off then trigger reset. any ideas?

  22. #1972
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    Quote Originally Posted by redfireant3
    "same as on/off o-ring" if i put that on the "reg valve pin assy" it fires once or full autos then it does nothing. (during air-up and holding trigger) I can see now it is ment to be pressed into that slot.
    This oring is held in place by the regulator seat holder.

    You know now that the on-off is sealing. Without the bolt, if it releases air when you release the trigger, then you know it is opening too. If not then, then there is an on-off problem. If it is releasing air when the trigger is released, then the problem is in the powertube or the regulator is not allowing enough pressure to push the bolt forward.

    Are both springs installed in the velocity adjuster?

  23. #1973
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    Quote Originally Posted by redfireant3
    FIXED! sorta
    problem: irregular rail or bolt body.
    fix: loosen body screw to almost falling out and TIGHTEN field strip screw with allen key till fire correctly.

    tweaking though, it fires manual pulls fine. i get 2-3 RT shots off then it sticks, slowly repressurizes the on/off then trigger reset. any ideas?
    If something is out of alignment such that it causes any twisting of the body or causes the valve to be misaligned, it will have bolt stick issues.

  24. #1974
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    What type of rail are you using?

  25. #1975
    standard rail on both markers (Left hand powerfeed and a ULE body) i got to thinking... maybe the RT problem is my air source? im gonna try it on someone elses mag next scenario to see if the valve is way out of wack. and another tank.
    Last edited by redfireant3; 01-23-2010 at 08:51 PM.

  26. #1976
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    Quote Originally Posted by redfireant3
    getting closer i think. with the crossfire tank it doesnt leak when I hold the trigger but instead it fires once or full auto and i feel alot of springy pressure on the trigger and as high or low that I turn the velocity it does nothing till I take it apart. this time I see the oring that sits in the valve pin cup jammed into the reg opening (the recessed part big enough for the oring.)
    The oring should be installed in the back half of the reg before screwing it together. When you take it apart, sometimes the oring is located inside of the brass reg seat. Take the oring out of there and put it back in the reg body. make sure the reg pin orings are not dirty. This is where all the gunk passing through the gun winds up.
    Email me for low prices on ALL AGD Products and more. tunaman5@verizon.net
    Tunamart

  27. #1977
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    and if you cant get it going, just send it here and I'll take care of it.

  28. #1978
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    I'm finally a mag owner again after a good 10 years. Most stupid thing I did was sell that old automag. Anyway, I purchased a used marker and it came with the level 10 bolt installed. Is this bolt supposed to have a foamie on it? Mine does not, but looks like it did at one point. Also, I did not get any of the other parts that come in the level 10 kit. If I have problems, where can these parts be aquired? I see the AGD website has a lot of parts, but I am not familiar with which ones are level 10 set-up specific. Any info would be helpful, thanks


  29. #1979
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hobbez
    I'm finally a mag owner again after a good 10 years. Most stupid thing I did was sell that old automag. Anyway, I purchased a used marker and it came with the level 10 bolt installed. Is this bolt supposed to have a foamie on it? Mine does not, but looks like it did at one point. Also, I did not get any of the other parts that come in the level 10 kit. If I have problems, where can these parts be aquired? I see the AGD website has a lot of parts, but I am not familiar with which ones are level 10 set-up specific. Any info would be helpful, thanks

    It does come with a foamy. It really isn't needed. It will work fine without it. The foamy prevents the ball from rolling back into the face of the bolt, which allows the next ball in the stack to sit lower in the breach. The slower start of the level 10 bolt prevents chopping of the ball in the stack. The only issue could be with really small paint. Then the foamy may help. Otherwise, get a foamy when you can, but don't worry about it if you don't have one.

    You can get level 10 parts individually at AGD. You should have a spare spring and a spare oring, as well as a few different sized carriers.

  30. #1980
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    Got a new valve and with lvl 10 installed for my emag, Shoots great but I note's I was breaking paint, Yes its really cheap paint but I though id investigate the tuning of the lvl 10. Set up as follows, lightest spring (gold?) 2 shims 1 dot carrier.

    The bolt didn't leak but was very loss with the one dot carrier so I though Ill slow it down some with the blank Carrier, stuck my squeegee down in the breach and tested the bolt. It hit it a bit hard so I tested it with my finger (Iv done it before) and it pinched me much harder then my old valve.

    My last valve I had much success with red spring blank carrier and no shims. So I tried this same set up for this new valve.

    Gun wont fire... I turn velocity up tell it stops turning and still wont fire, tank was low but still had over 1k psi even tried with single dot carrier and still won't fire.

    Suggestions?

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