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Thread: ** Official Level 10 Problems Thread **

  1. #1981
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    Quote Originally Posted by kcombs9
    Got a new valve and with lvl 10 installed for my emag, Shoots great but I note's I was breaking paint, Yes its really cheap paint but I though id investigate the tuning of the lvl 10. Set up as follows, lightest spring (gold?) 2 shims 1 dot carrier.

    The bolt didn't leak but was very loss with the one dot carrier so I though Ill slow it down some with the blank Carrier, stuck my squeegee down in the breach and tested the bolt. It hit it a bit hard so I tested it with my finger (Iv done it before) and it pinched me much harder then my old valve.

    My last valve I had much success with red spring blank carrier and no shims. So I tried this same set up for this new valve.

    Gun wont fire... I turn velocity up tell it stops turning and still wont fire, tank was low but still had over 1k psi even tried with single dot carrier and still won't fire.

    Suggestions?
    Always use the largest carrier that doesn't leak. If you need to slow down the bolt, do it with a heavier spring. Tightening the carrier will induce bolt stick, especially as you reach optimum sensitivity.

    Make sure to remove the shims when tuning. They can give you a false leak when selecting carrier sizes. You can put them back in after you are finished but you probably will never need them anyway.

    When testing your setup, make sure you hold the squeegie against the front of the bolt. If you hold it in front of the bolt and the bolt makes it past 1/4", it will hit hard.

    Check your paint by dropping it down your barrel. It should push in with no effort at all. It should almost fall in. If it is tight, that is probably why you are breaking it.
    Except for the Automag in front, its usually the man behind the equipment that counts.

  2. #1982
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    Quote Originally Posted by athomas
    Always use the largest carrier that doesn't leak. If you need to slow down the bolt, do it with a heavier spring. Tightening the carrier will induce bolt stick, especially as you reach optimum sensitivity.

    Make sure to remove the shims when tuning. They can give you a false leak when selecting carrier sizes. You can put them back in after you are finished but you probably will never need them anyway.

    When testing your setup, make sure you hold the squeegie against the front of the bolt. If you hold it in front of the bolt and the bolt makes it past 1/4", it will hit hard.

    Check your paint by dropping it down your barrel. It should push in with no effort at all. It should almost fall in. If it is tight, that is probably why you are breaking it.
    the paint is really small and was falling into my .682 insert, I normally underbore with no problems with Barrel breaks.

    This was a Chop cause there was paint in the breach, feed neck and on the bolt/power tube.

    Ill try more tuning this weekend when I get to the field and more air.

  3. #1983
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    Try it out with some better paint. Stick your finger down in the breach and see if you have a bur cutting the balls. I had a detent blow once and basicly turned the marker into a blender.

  4. #1984
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    I had a detent do the same thing to me as well. Also, brittle paint that is really small can be a problem, because the next ball sits low in the breach. The level 10 won't help this because the bolt is up to full power at the point of impact with the bottom of the ball, which is different than a chop which is a ball part way in the breach. These breaks only occur with brittle paint that can be damaged with a glancing blow.

  5. #1985
    So, if my mag cycles without paint, I have the largest carrier that won't leak, and the bolt stops on paint in the breach; I need to turn up the velocity?
    Last edited by fierymartel; 02-18-2010 at 09:35 PM.

  6. #1986
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    Quote Originally Posted by fierymartel
    So, if my mag cycles without paint, I have the largest carrier that won't leak, and the bolt stops on paint in the breach; I need to turn up the volume?
    I'm not sure I understand the question?

  7. #1987
    sorry, I meant velocity. My crossfire tanks ran out of air(850psi). I then tried my PE tanks and the marker would cycle, but not with paint. With paint, the bolt would stop and reset.

  8. #1988
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    Quote Originally Posted by fierymartel
    sorry, I meant velocity. My crossfire tanks ran out of air(850psi). I then tried my PE tanks and the marker would cycle, but not with paint. With paint, the bolt would stop and reset.
    Turn up the velocity or use a weaker bolt spring.

  9. #1989
    cool, so I go to the field Saturday and am shooting hot, I just use a softer spring.

  10. #1990
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    Go with the red or gray spring, set your velocity and buy some new paint.

    Might have sticky or worn detents. Place them in a cup with hot water and swish them around with a fork or spoon to clean them up. Press on the ball under water to get all the crud out of them as well. Just change them out for GP and try it again.

    If you have an adj force feed hopper, lean out the amount of pressure it's putting on the balls to your marker or go with a revy and shoot about 6-8 balls a sec and see if there's any change or chopping.

    Do one at a time so you can figure out WTH is going on with your marker.

  11. #1991
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    Quote Originally Posted by fierymartel
    sorry, I meant velocity. My crossfire tanks ran out of air(850psi). I then tried my PE tanks and the marker would cycle, but not with paint. With paint, the bolt would stop and reset.
    If it is stopping on paint, it is set too soft. You will need to increase the velocity setting to make it cycle consistently with paint. Find the lowest velocity that the gun cycles at. Then increase the velocity about 20fps higher than that for consistent operation. If the new velocity is too high, then you will need to use a smaller/lighter spring. If the velocity is way too low, you should use a stiffer spring.

  12. #1992
    Thanks guys!

  13. #1993
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ando
    Try it out with some better paint. Stick your finger down in the breach and see if you have a bur cutting the balls. I had a detent blow once and basicly turned the marker into a blender.
    no bur in the breach, the red spring at the ends of it where too tight and would pinch the bolt so much it would not shoot. I filed it down some and works just great now.

  14. #1994
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    Quote Originally Posted by kcombs9
    no bur in the breach, the red spring at the ends of it where too tight and would pinch the bolt so much it would not shoot. I filed it down some and works just great now.
    It is possible that the body washer is mushroomed. Your filing freed things up. Check the body washer. If it is indeed mushroomed, it should be filed out so that it is the proper size again.

  15. #1995
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    Quote Originally Posted by athomas
    It is possible that the body washer is mushroomed. Your filing freed things up. Check the body washer. If it is indeed mushroomed, it should be filed out so that it is the proper size again.
    I don't think this is the case, the lightest spring worked fine and the bolt slids past the washer with no problems, it was a new lvl 10 kit and the red one just had a small flaw on the end of it.

  16. #1996
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    Quote Originally Posted by kcombs9
    I don't think this is the case, the lightest spring worked fine and the bolt slids past the washer with no problems, it was a new lvl 10 kit and the red one just had a small flaw on the end of it.
    If that was the case, all you had to do was flip the spring around so that the tight end was against the back of the bolt. Little problems like that can be hard to find. It's good to hear that you found the problem and got it going.

  17. #1997
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    So after I though I had fixed my red spring I get to the field and the first game I keep getting miss fires, at first I though it was just with Emode so I ran Mmode for a bit and same thing.

    It cronoed at 275-280 with no problem but it had problems consistently firing at high rates or at all some times.

    Switched back to the gold spring and shot fine the rest of the day. and It was much better paint then my first test so I didn't have any breaks but I would still like to get the red spring to work.

    So would AGD will give me a new red spring or should I trying filing this one down more on the inside?

  18. #1998
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    Quote Originally Posted by kcombs9
    So after I though I had fixed my red spring I get to the field and the first game I keep getting miss fires, at first I though it was just with Emode so I ran Mmode for a bit and same thing.

    It cronoed at 275-280 with no problem but it had problems consistently firing at high rates or at all some times.

    Switched back to the gold spring and shot fine the rest of the day. and It was much better paint then my first test so I didn't have any breaks but I would still like to get the red spring to work.

    So would AGD will give me a new red spring or should I trying filing this one down more on the inside?
    If its only one end that is bad, flip it end for end. Put the bad end towards the bolt. Only the tip of the bolt moves out through one end of the spring. Once the tip has moved out past the front, the narrower mid section won't cause any problems.

    What is the lowest velocity that the red spring will operate at in your gun setup while shooting balls? Find that value and then turn the velocity up 20fps past it. If the velocity is too high, then you are using too stiff a spring.

  19. #1999
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    Quote Originally Posted by athomas
    If its only one end that is bad, flip it end for end. Put the bad end towards the bolt. Only the tip of the bolt moves out through one end of the spring. Once the tip has moved out past the front, the narrower mid section won't cause any problems.

    What is the lowest velocity that the red spring will operate at in your gun setup while shooting balls? Find that value and then turn the velocity up 20fps past it. If the velocity is too high, then you are using too stiff a spring.
    its the same on both end of the spring, so I either need to file down on one end more or replace the spring.

    The gun was cronoed at 275-280 and the bolt was sticking with the red spring. Iv used the red spring before at that range with no problems.

  20. #2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by kcombs9
    its the same on both end of the spring, so I either need to file down on one end more or replace the spring.

    The gun was cronoed at 275-280 and the bolt was sticking with the red spring. Iv used the red spring before at that range with no problems.
    If the spring requires you to file it, replace it. You will change the parameters if you start filing it. You could create a weak spot that could fracture and break even though you only take a tiny bit off.

    When you used a red spring before, was it with the same barrel? A different barrel would cause the operating pressure to change for that velocity. Whether or not it worked before, always assume a new condition and start from new.

  21. #2001
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    ok im gonna sound like an idiot i know i am prepared for a lashing. but what does it mean when you have air leaking down the barrel, not extremely fast but kinda quick? Sorry I havent tinkered with my mag in about a year and a half im just getting back into it.

    Thanks,
    Trigger

  22. #2002
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    Quote Originally Posted by trigger090
    ok im gonna sound like an idiot i know i am prepared for a lashing. but what does it mean when you have air leaking down the barrel, not extremely fast but kinda quick? Sorry I havent tinkered with my mag in about a year and a half im just getting back into it.

    Thanks,
    Trigger
    I'm assuming you have a level 10 bolt installed.

    Did it cycle when you pulled the trigger? Did the leak stop when you held the trigger in? Is your rail bushing in place? Since it has been a year, did you add a couple of drops of oil at the valve inlet before you aired it up? Check these and get back with some info about your setup as well.

  23. #2003

    Wtf?

    Tried out my brand new ULE custom and right out the box LVL 10 bolt would stick and not re-cock. I would have to stick have to take a squeegee put it down the barrel to re-cock it.



    suggestions?

  24. #2004
    Quote Originally Posted by ndnfeather
    Tried out my brand new ULE custom and right out the box LVL 10 bolt would stick and not re-cock. I would have to stick have to take a squeegee put it down the barrel to re-cock it.
    First
    loose the attitude.

    Second
    The thumb screw should be finger tight only and the front frame screw does not want to be too tight either.

  25. #2005
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    Quote Originally Posted by ndnfeather
    Tried out my brand new ULE custom and right out the box LVL 10 bolt would stick and not re-cock. I would have to stick have to take a squeegee put it down the barrel to re-cock it.



    suggestions?
    Sometimes they aren't tuned properly. Do your standard level 10 tuning procedures.

    - Remove all the level 10 shims first.
    - Install the largest carrier that does not leak.
    - Always use the same white carrier oring when changing carrier sizes.

  26. #2006

    now you done it

    Quote Originally Posted by Looper
    First
    loose the attitude.

    Second
    The thumb screw should be finger tight only and the front frame screw does not want to be too tight either.
    Was looking for a reason why out the box it would have issues. Instead i get loose the attitude
    and this is not the place for but here I go
    My second marker was automag classic
    then a minimag (bought the first one to arrive at my local store, damn im old) then rt classic then an emag and now a ule custom, and since my first AGD marker I have never played with anything other the AGD ever. And when I'm on the field and some fool says oh I have auto mag in storage or in the closet, I talk crap to him all day about how he need to stop playing with a child's toy and use an automag. Since all my markers now have lvl10, I very familiar with tuning a lvl 10 but the point is I expected more out the box, and I admit that it may have been wrong of me to expect it to go from the ups guys hands to right onto the field.

  27. #2007
    My ule custom had bolt stick issues also. Even when i went to larger carrier sizes it still would have a nasty bolt stick. Solution for me, OIL the crap out of it. After some oil and a few cases of paint, my marker shoots ropes with no breaks.

  28. #2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by ndnfeather
    Was looking for a reason why out the box it would have issues. Instead i get loose the attitude
    This was probably because of the wft in the title.
    Quote Originally Posted by ndnfeather
    .....I very familiar with tuning a lvl 10 but the point is I expected more out the box, and I admit that it may have been wrong of me to expect it to go from the ups guys hands to right onto the field.
    AGD does generic tuning. The problem is that it may have worked when the oring was freshly wet and at atmospheric conditions. After the gun sat for a while in stock, and then arrived to your area which has different atmospheric conditions, the tension on the carrier oring could have changed. Since operation of the level 10 requires it to be such a finely tuned device, any small changes in pressure/force can affect its performance. I've seen lots of the mags come out of the box and not work properly until the level 10 is retuned. It is a simple fix. Just go to the next larger carrier size using the same white oring.

  29. #2009
    Quote Originally Posted by ndnfeather
    Was looking for a reason why out the box it would have issues. Instead i get loose the attitude
    and this is not the place for but here I go
    My second marker was automag classic
    then a minimag (bought the first one to arrive at my local store, damn im old) then rt classic then an emag and now a ule custom, and since my first AGD marker I have never played with anything other the AGD ever. And when I'm on the field and some fool says oh I have auto mag in storage or in the closet, I talk crap to him all day about how he need to stop playing with a child's toy and use an automag. Since all my markers now have lvl10, I very familiar with tuning a lvl 10 but the point is I expected more out the box, and I admit that it may have been wrong of me to expect it to go from the ups guys hands to right onto the field.
    I'm sorry my suggestions did not work for you.

  30. #2010

    lvl 10, classic valve

    OK first off here is the setup, classic valve, HPA preset at 850 psi. I went to install the level 10 bolt on my mag and started off with the shortest spring in the kit, 1.5 carrier and 2 shims, of course lots of oil. Gun shoots consistently at 285 fps, no leaks, and bolt re-sets with no sticking. Shot a case of paint through it with no problems.

    So of course I get greedy and try to use the red spring since i hear it is even softer on paint, install it with the same setup described above, gun won't shoot, turn up pressure (which uses nearly all the threading on the nut) till it does start to shoot but the gun chronos at 385 fps and is leaking out the back only. If I turn the screw down a little to stop the leak out the back the gun will not shoot.

    Should I just stick with the short spring setup that worked fine, will I not be able to use the red spring, or will the new reg piston pack on the website solve this and allow me to shoot the red spring consistently at a velocity of 285-295? Thanks in advance for the help.

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