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Thread: ** Official Level 10 Problems Thread **

  1. #2221
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    Quote Originally Posted by hunterp View Post
    This leaking would stop when the trigger had some pressure on it - both before and after the gun shot.
    This indicates that your problem was too many shims installed in the powertube. Go back to the next larger carrier that you were using and remove the shims.
    Except for the Automag in front, its usually the man behind the equipment that counts.

  2. #2222
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    hunterp...hey man I'm headed to Extreme Paintball in Manor, TX tomorrow for the afternoon session. Come on out and lets get that mag up and running.

  3. #2223
    Quote Originally Posted by athomas View Post
    Thanks for posting your findings, your fix, and results. It helps others as well.
    I just discovered that my field strip screw would back out after so many shots, resulting in on/off malfunctions and a slight leak. I tightened the screw and drew a hash mark parallel to the rail on the screw with a sharpie to track movement.

    Sure enough, the marker would fire flawlessly until screw backed out approx 1/8 turn or so. The marker would then fail to fire and leak again. I used some teflon tape and hand tightened it, but repeated cycling forces are still strong enough to shake the screw loose. I've tightened it with pliers now, and that seems to have solved the problem!

    Apparently my Level X doesn't need any shims, and is tuned using the 1.5 carrier and red spring. Ult is using 4 ult shims and 1 level X shim. Ninja shp 68/4500 tested at 1100 psi for output pressure.

  4. #2224
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    Little help. I've been trying to tune my ule trigger but having some problems. DOn't know if its that I'm running a 3000 PSI empire tank or the shim adjustments. I order for the trigger to react properly do u need a high intake tank for the x-valve ULT Trigger to run properly? I had everything tuned nice before I put the ULE trigger in. When I put the ULT trigger in the bolt wouldn't re set after two or three shots. What coudl cause this? Also I ****ed up the foam tip on the bolt assembly by manually pushing the bolt in when it wouldn't reset. Can you glue the foam tip back on? If not how do you go about fixing this? Thanks

  5. #2225
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmbeers21 View Post
    Little help. I've been trying to tune my ule trigger but having some problems. DOn't know if its that I'm running a 3000 PSI empire tank or the shim adjustments. I order for the trigger to react properly do u need a high intake tank for the x-valve ULT Trigger to run properly? I had everything tuned nice before I put the ULE trigger in. When I put the ULT trigger in the bolt wouldn't re set after two or three shots. What coudl cause this? Also I ****ed up the foam tip on the bolt assembly by manually pushing the bolt in when it wouldn't reset. Can you glue the foam tip back on? If not how do you go about fixing this? Thanks
    The 3000psi tank shouldn't be a problem unless the output pressure is lower than it should be. The level 10 bolt doesn't like to operate on low pressures. Low pressures have a tendency to expose any imperfections in the tuning that might work in most situations.

    If the level 10 was properly tuned, we can assume it is the ULT that is causing the issue. Any air that moves past the on-off before the sear can catch the bolt will keep the bolt from properly reaching the reset position and will not allow the sear to continue its rotation, thus causing bolt stick. Too many shims in the ULT can cause a burst of air into the chamber when the sear is being rotated to the reset position. Try removing a shim or two and see if that helps.

    The foamy can be replaced. Make sure the front of the bolt is thoroughly cleaned and degreased so that any epoxy/glue will stick. Use a good quality epoxy for best results, and glue the foamy back on.

  6. #2226
    Thanks for the advice guys. I think the infrequent bolt stick situation greatly improved by tightening up the frame and field strip screws an extra half turn or so. I now need an allen key to get the field strip screw off. I've been dry fire testing so far and there hasnt been a single bolt stick. I was able to get a couple sticks while dry firing before, so I'm optimistic it will be less temperamental on the fields tomorrow.

    I did notice another minor but concerning behavior. This happened both before and after tightening the screws up, though much less after. After a shot, the bolt appears to reset per usual but there would be a quiet, brief hiss for about second before everything seals up. I think there is a *slight* motion in the trigger rod when the final seal is made and the hiss stops. I'm not sure which side of the sear the movement is coming from! Could be Lv 10 or ULT, but I suspect the bolt more since its been the historically temperamental one.

    I forgot to mention in my original post that there are no shims in the power tube. I am using a 1.5 sized carrier. The 2.0 size carrier is the one that slowly leaked down the barrel until I pressed the trigger a 'lil, or oiled the power tube a LOT!

  7. #2227
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    Quote Originally Posted by hunterp View Post
    ....After a shot, the bolt appears to reset per usual but there would be a quiet, brief hiss for about second before everything seals up. I think there is a *slight* motion in the trigger rod when the final seal is made and the hiss stops. I'm not sure which side of the sear the movement is coming from! Could be Lv 10 or ULT, but I suspect the bolt more since its been the historically temperamental one.

    I forgot to mention in my original post that there are no shims in the power tube. I am using a 1.5 sized carrier. The 2.0 size carrier is the one that slowly leaked down the barrel until I pressed the trigger a 'lil, or oiled the power tube a LOT!
    The slight motion in the trigger rod when the final seal is made and the hiss stops, is an indication the the bolt is sticking and slow to reset. The fact that it is resetting and not staying forward due to a continued leak into the front chamber, is a good indication that it is the level 10 and not the ULT.

    The slow leak until you press the trigger slightly is an indication that the bolt sits too far forward as if the powertube has too many shims installed. Since you don't have any shims installed, then the problem must be that your sear is worn or the valve is sitting too far back. If your rail bushing is in place, I would look at your sear.

    If the leak stops when you slightly touch the trigger with the 2.0 carrier, it is an indication that it is the proper carrier for your setup.

  8. #2228
    athomas, I believe you hit the nail on the head with my valve sitting too far back. With the old body and the way I was screwing in the field strip screw, there would be an ever so slight movement when I pushed on the back of the valve. It was very slight, but noticeable. I'd guess that the small gap between the end of the body and the beginning of the fattest part of the valve was about %50 too big.

    I have since gotten a new body and a new field strip screw. There is now no more movement when pushing on the back of the valve and it appears to be working well with the pod or so of paint I've run through it. If all continues to go well, I'm going to switch back to the 2.0 carrier per your recommendation. I'm hoping I'll also be able to step back down to the medium sized spring to reduce some recoil.

    Thanks for all the advice!

  9. #2229
    I went to a bigger carrier today, because the other one felt tight to me. But now when I shoot, it leaks a tiny bit for like 1 second and then seals. This is with no shims. Will putting 2 shims in fix this or is my carrier to big? Also, it currently has the gold spring in it, but is says on AGD's website that the red spring should is what most people use and then a guide online says the red is for shooting between 270-300 and the gold is for 260 down. Is that true?

    It is an X-Valve.

  10. #2230
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    Use the largest carrier that doesn't leak. Best test for this - put the oring in the carrier and dangle the bolt from it. If it shakes loose after a few shakes, it's likely right. If it falls right off or doesn't move at all, it's not correct.

    Shims will help with resetting, not leaks. All a shim will do is to alter the vent point of the carrier oring. If it's a slow reset on a caught ball, add a shim or two and try again.

    Use the gold spring - it will be a bit easier to get running at the start. Once you get everything running, you can try the red spring (I use it), but gold is best for a brandy new set up so we can eliminate issues.

  11. #2231
    Thank you. It fires, then goes psssssst and seals. Every shot...fire, psssst, seal. I wasn't sure if people are running without shims or if everyone pretty much puts in the two suggested shims. It does this with no shims. I will add two and see if it seals up right away.

  12. #2232
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    I don't use shims on mine at all and have no problems.

    You have to understand, the bolt piston placement is a "tolerance" - it could be just a tad too long to vent correctly. This moves the vent point so the bolt will reset more reliably.

  13. #2233
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    Quote Originally Posted by gretch6364 View Post
    Thank you. It fires, then goes psssssst and seals. Every shot...fire, psssst, seal. I wasn't sure if people are running without shims or if everyone pretty much puts in the two suggested shims. It does this with no shims. I will add two and see if it seals up right away.
    The understanding of the level 10 operation has changed since the guide was developed. It has been realized, that shims really aren't needed except in extreme cases. The shims are so thin, that if the bolt moves at all, then it will allow the vent hole to become exposed and vent the chamber air to allow it to reset. In the extreme cases where something in the gun setup is way out of spec or the tolerances are way off, then you can shorten the distance that the bolt needs to move by adding shims.

    The job of the shims is to move the carrier oring closer to the bolt stem vent hole. If the bolt is already venting air, then shims won't help. If the gun if firing and is slow to reset, then shims won't help. In your case, adding shims will make the problem worst.

    Since your valve is firing but is slow to reset, it usually indicates a carrier that is too tight.

    How old is your gun setup? Have you checked the sear to see if there is any wear at the tip where it catches the bolt? If there is wear and the bolt is sitting farther forward than it should, then it could leak as if you had too many shims installed.

  14. #2234
    Here is the gun...I think it is newish. I bought it used:



    I will go down a carrier and see how it goes. It seems to me that the rail and body are from AGD with the rail being milled by Luke (same with the trigger frame) so things should not be too out of spec. The carrier I have in there is pretty darn loose. It seems to me that it bolt resets 100% fine and on time, but that a little air is getting around the o-ring until the valve fully pressurizes.

  15. #2235
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    Quote Originally Posted by gretch6364 View Post
    It seems to me that it bolt resets 100% fine and on time, but that a little air is getting around the o-ring until the valve fully pressurizes.
    You can tell if the valve is resetting fast by how fast the trigger comes forward. The trigger can't come forward until the bolt is fully back in the reset position. If the bolt is resetting quickly, try going down a carrier size. If the bolt is slow resetting, try going up a carrier size.

  16. #2236
    Yep, that is the situation. The bolt is resetting fine, the carrier o-ring just takes a second to seal. I re-lubed and put in the the red spring and it was better, but guessing I am still gonna have to come down a carrier size, especially as it breaks in. Also, put the two shims in. The shims and spring changed the leak pattern to where it was just a very slight leak after fully resetting that lasted a little longer.

    I liked the tension of the carrier o-ring and carrier combo, so do partially wonder about a nick in the o-ring, but they are pretty hard and I did not see any with a visual inspection. Good enough for now I guess and I will get to the game early Sunday and play around with it. Since I re-greased the reg, I don't know the velocity and that could be playing a big part right now. Thanks for the help.

  17. #2237
    OK I just want to make sure I am right before testing and trying to get everything settled, I only have my 22ci tank filled right now. In the middle of a game yesterday my mag started venting after a shot, I could get around this by turning off my air and back on again for another shot, but the process would just repeat. I got back to my car and added three drops of oil thinking that the carrier oring might be dry, that ended up stopping the vent at the end of each shot, but now the bolt is half cycling at full auto when the tank got close to empty the bolt slowed down enough for me to see that it was not completing the cycle.

    It is a ULE Pnuemag with a logic frame, I am currently using the shortest spring, but it is rather old. Could my issue stem from the spring finally wearing out? I just have never seen this problem before and am not sure where to look. I do have a full set of new springs, and carriers.


    Clarification: What are the possible causes of a automag full auto venting like a tippmann? Can the mainspring be behind this, or could it the carrier oring, or am I overlooking something?

  18. #2238
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    well, testing a new spring is easy, but i would look at the sear and bolt lip for any excessive wear / chips.

  19. #2239
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doom-king View Post
    OK I just want to make sure I am right before testing and trying to get everything settled, I only have my 22ci tank filled right now. In the middle of a game yesterday my mag started venting after a shot, I could get around this by turning off my air and back on again for another shot, but the process would just repeat. I got back to my car and added three drops of oil thinking that the carrier oring might be dry, that ended up stopping the vent at the end of each shot, but now the bolt is half cycling at full auto when the tank got close to empty the bolt slowed down enough for me to see that it was not completing the cycle.

    It is a ULE Pnuemag with a logic frame, I am currently using the shortest spring, but it is rather old. Could my issue stem from the spring finally wearing out? I just have never seen this problem before and am not sure where to look. I do have a full set of new springs, and carriers.


    Clarification: What are the possible causes of a automag full auto venting like a tippmann? Can the mainspring be behind this, or could it the carrier oring, or am I overlooking something?
    Full auto is not a level 10 issue. That is usually an on-off issue, or a worn sear or bolt. The worn sear or bolt is usually a progressive issue that you can feel getting worst over time as you use your mag. It doesn't just happen all of a sudden. Therefore, I would say your problem might be on-off related. If the on-off oring is leaking air, then it lets air into the chamber before the sear can catch the bolt and causes the bolt to go forward again. The chamber is usually not fully charged so it results in a half cycle and not a fully charged shot. The leaking on-off can also cause the bolt to stick so that it isn't far enough back for the sear to catch it. That would result in the leaking air escaping out the front via the bolt stem vent hole. Change your on-off oring first, since it is the easiest to do.

  20. #2240
    Thank you I will try that, I also noticed last night that my spring was about 1 full coil shorter than my new parts kit's shortest spring. My sear and bolt both look fine, I have a spare lv10 kit to compare the bolt to and they look the same.

    Edit: so I tore apart my on off assembly on my x valve and oring 22 was flat out gone... I think I found the problem.
    Last edited by Doom-king; 05-26-2014 at 07:58 AM.

  21. #2241
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    that would do it! also, not replacing your sear after disassembling your 'mag...i did that once lol. good call athomas.

  22. #2242
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    After trying tons of different o-rings, I've finally found a decent one, and I've gotten to my smallest carrier that doesn't leak, which is a size 1 (one line). However, the gun doesn't fire. The bolt just chuffs forward and leaks, and then if i keep holding the trigger down, it keeps resetting and chuffing again. It won't reset itself all the way though, it seems. I've cranked my reg almost all the way in.. any ideas?

  23. #2243
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    What spring are you using?

  24. #2244
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    Gold

    EDIT:

    I'm using a gold spring out of a brand new Level 10 kit. I feel like I've got a good carrier/oring match now, as I'm airing up without leak, and the next carrier causes a slight leak down-barrel.

    However, my problem is that I can turn the velocity adjuster all the way in and still not be able to cycle. I replaced my small on/off o-ring, but I'm not sure what else to try. When I pull the trigger, it just "chuffs" half a shot. If I hold the trigger in, it will vent down the barrel and continue to make small chuffs; the bolt won't reset.

    Occasionally, if the gun sits, I can fire one full shot, but the bolt still doesn't reset, and I can't complete another cycle for another 30 seconds.
    Last edited by Billz804; 06-05-2014 at 06:30 PM.

  25. #2245
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billz804 View Post
    ....When I pull the trigger, it just "chuffs" half a shot. If I hold the trigger in, it will vent down the barrel and continue to make small chuffs; the bolt won't reset.
    That indicates a problem with the on-off. Which valve do you have, a classic or retro/X valve.

  26. #2246
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    I have a Retro valve with the stock RT on/off.

  27. #2247
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billz804 View Post
    I have a Retro valve with the stock RT on/off.
    Are all the orings in the valve in good shape? Does your on-off use two orings above the top or just one?

  28. #2248
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    It's just the single oring. From my initial inspection, all the orings looked good to me. I'll go back over it again to double check..

  29. #2249
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    I've given most everything a once-over, and I don't see anything that stands out. Are there any orings that you might suspect as the culprit?

    Right now it is airing with no leak, I can fire a first shot, and then it seems like there is a slow recharge. If I fire a shot and don't wait for 20 seconds I just get "puffs" and then venting down the barrel from the bolt not resetting.

  30. #2250
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billz804 View Post
    I've given most everything a once-over, and I don't see anything that stands out. Are there any orings that you might suspect as the culprit?

    Right now it is airing with no leak, I can fire a first shot, and then it seems like there is a slow recharge. If I fire a shot and don't wait for 20 seconds I just get "puffs" and then venting down the barrel from the bolt not resetting.
    If when you hold the trigger, the puffs of air don't stop, then it is indeed leaking past the valve orings. If the leak slows and stops after a while when you hold the trigger, then the problem is your level 10 setup.

    The front chamber can leak from 4 different areas. The first and most obvious is the powertube, but that leak won't stop it from firing. The next obvious one is the on-off oring. The 3rd area is the regulator valve pin oring where the pin goes into the back section of the regulator body. A leak here allows air to flow into the front chamber from the back section through the regulator valve pin assembly. The 4th area is the two orings at the front of the regulator valve pin assembly. I doubt it is one of those two orings, because they usually vent leaked air out through a little hole in the side of the valve.

    You can check the valve for leaks by installing it without the bolt and spring. Hold the trigger in and air it up. Gently release the trigger until you start to hear air flow out the front of the powertube. If you release the trigger and air flows out the trigger, and then stops when you pull the trigger, then the regulator part of the valve is sealing properly and your problem is definately the level 10.

    Also, check your trigger rod spacing. It should be adjusted so that the back of the trigger rod has a tiny space between it and the back of the trigger when you hold the trigger against the safety (safety on) with the gun aired up.

    Check that your rail bushing is in place.

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