Automag vs Autococker, please level with me

[TrickedCockerMan]

How is it possible to shoot faster with a short heavy pull, over a short, light, smooth pull. Im just cuerious at to how that is possible. I alwyas thought that pushing heavier things will take longer and be slower than pushing something that is also short, but light, and smooth.

[Timmee]

Originally posted by strongboy2005


For a tournament ready mag...

Good body ($130), Lvl 10 Bolt ($85), Retro valve ($200), and an Intelliframe ($115). Adds up to $530 for a tournament mag (not including the $200 for the original gun).

I know all about the automag hierarchy, and I was not referring to the preformance of those guns, I was referring to the preformance of the stock classic mag, which is comparable to an upgraded spyder.

And yes, I owned a mag for over a year, put $130 into it and realized for the ammount I had into the gun I could've bought a 2002 cocker that would have outpreformed it in every aspect.

Why would you need to replace the body on the 'Mag? If the stock one is P/F, and the new one is P/F, there will be no performance difference between the 2.

Also, the ReTro valve alone will increase the performance of the 'Mag to rival the electro markers. To get similar speed in a 'Cocker, you'd have to add an electro grip ($4-$500), and even then, you might not have the same performance as the ReTro. Add Level 10 and an Intelliframe to the 'Mag, and it'd still be cheaper than a Race'd Autococker.

I'm not saying 'Cockers aren't nice markers (I own one myself), but don't say that 'Mags aren't worthy.

[flatacid]

well. i owned a cocker for about 2 years. it was a cool gun. but, i don't think i would buy another cocker again unless it was a sto or one of the higher up cockers.

i spent alot of money on my cocker (all new everything) for it too pretty much be the same gun. getting a new back block, or a new ram won't give you a thing. you can say it will all you want, but it doesn't. the only upgrades i would do to a cocker would be hinge trigger and barrel. thats it. maybe a valve if you want low pressure. thats why im getting a mag. ive played with an old 91 mag. very reliable. awesome to play with. ive played with a micro rt. very fast. but it needed lvl 10. all in all, i like how the mag performs compared to the cocker.

but play with both. thats the only way you will know which is for you.

[strongboy2005]

Originally posted by Brian68mag
As for which gun would shoot faster, uh mag?
I hate arguing with idiots.

I could say the same for you. Unless that mag has got a retro valve and itelliframe it won't be as fast as a cocker, and unless it has a lvl 10 it can be as fast as all get out, and chop every ball.

[Timmee]

Originally posted by strongboy2005

I could say the same for you. Unless that mag has got a retro valve and itelliframe it won't be as fast as a cocker, and unless it has a lvl 10 it can be as fast as all get out, and chop every ball.

Whether I'm shooting a spyder, 'Mag, 'Cocker, 'Ray, or any other mechanical marker (not including markers with RT mode), I shoot at the same speed.

And as someone has stated before, a properly set up 'Mag won't chop any more than any other marker if you're pulling the trigger back all the way.

[Ejp414]

"How is it possible to shoot faster with a short heavy pull, over a short, light, smooth pull. Im just cuerious at to how that is possible. I alwyas thought that pushing heavier things will take longer and be slower than pushing something that is also short, but light, and smooth."

cockers have short trigger pulls? I'm sorry but that was just stupid. Maybe a cocker with an electro frame. I have seen tippys with shorter pulls than cockers.

[strongboy2005]

with a orracle 3-way and a wgp hinge on a stock autococker I can time an autococker to get a 1 mm trigger pull, no electronics necesary.

[Dayspring]

Resurrected from the dead again...

ANYWAY-

There are several flaws in Strongboy's argument. I already shot him down in another thread. (Told him once, told him 1000 times- Subjective arguments CANNOT be used as conclusive evidence. Also said that Cockers were designed for the rough tourney player. They weren't designed to last 10 years. Can we say "huh"? I know you can...)

In regards to something I read back a bit in here- You (Strongboy) said that Mag's aren't considered High-End Markers. That they rival Tippmanns and the like. I find that UTTERLY hilarious. How exactly is a stock Cocker more High-End over a Stock Mag? (Like a Minimag for ease of discussion) Is it b/c one has a regulator? Oops. They both do. Is it because of the multitude of parts on the Cocker? I'm sorry. But being able to have a paintball gun work with a minimal amount of parts is MORE desirable than having a gun where 2 dozen things could go wrong.

Take your spam and get outta here. We live in a Hype/Myth-Free Zone here on AO.

AGD- dispelling Hype & Myth for years!

[strongboy2005]

Originally posted by Dayspring
Resurrected from the dead again...

ANYWAY-

There are several flaws in Strongboy's argument. I already shot him down in another thread. (Told him once, told him 1000 times- Subjective arguments CANNOT be used as conclusive evidence. Also said that Cockers were designed for the rough tourney player. They weren't designed to last 10 years. Can we say "huh"? I know you can...)

In regards to something I read back a bit in here- You (Strongboy) said that Mag's aren't considered High-End Markers. That they rival Tippmanns and the like. I find that UTTERLY hilarious. How exactly is a stock Cocker more High-End over a Stock Mag? (Like a Minimag for ease of discussion) Is it b/c one has a regulator? Oops. They both do. Is it because of the multitude of parts on the Cocker? I'm sorry. But being able to have a paintball gun work with a minimal amount of parts is MORE desirable than having a gun where 2 dozen things could go wrong.

Take your spam and get outta here. We live in a Hype/Myth-Free Zone here on AO.

AGD- dispelling Hype & Myth for years!

first off, it is not me who is bringing back these threads. As for shooting me down, YEAH RIGHT. You can't give me one fact that shows that mags are better in any way, while I can give you several why cockers are better. Nothing can just "go wrong" with an autococker. The whole point is that you are able to tweak and time them for optimum performance, while a minimag (as you stated, for an ease of discussion) does not have those capabilities. What you get is what you are going to have, no changing anything to suit you. I find the array of parts more desireable. I am a tinkerer, I like to buy different parts for my cocker and I could sit for hours getting my trigger to be just right for the upcoming tournament. Which, by the way, is very much shorter than my mag ever was. So in essence, yes, I can't think of any reason why I would choose a stock mag over a stock autococker unless they were given out for free in which case I'd try to sell it imediately before the market became flush with them.

In a few years the classic mag will be obsolete, it's just that a few of you don't want to believe it. Tippmann is advancing faster than AGD is when it comes to their markers. The A-5 is in close competition with the classic mag, and you better believe Spyder and Piranha's new electros would be preferred over a mag. So in that sence automags have fallen below what was once considered companies only nOObs were fit to buy from. Next it'll be Brass Eagle coming out with a new electro sometime in about 10 years, and THEY will beat the classic mags. While AGD gave up on their original design with the automag, and has begun marketing the Xmag, Cockers have stayed alive with new state-of-the-art upgrades to make their guns compete with the new electros (including the x-mag), and while AGD has refused to even take the time to put a 45 frame on their classic mags, 2003 stock autocockers are considered tournament ready with minimal upgrades. So AGAIN I have shut YOU down.

[FESTUS33]

Last I heard a Cocker has about 96
seperate part's, and about half
of them move. A Mag has 3 moving
part's {4 if it's an E-Mag}.
the less complicated something is,
the less that can go wrong with it.
You do the math

[TransMan]

AGD never gave up on the classic design they have used the Mag design the whole time they just put the best upgrades on their guns before they sold them. This way if u buy an Xmag u are already getting what u cocker guys have to upgrade to get.

[Dayspring]

Originally posted by strongboy2005

Nothing can just "go wrong" with an autococker.

Bust a hose on the field. Ooops. Forgot about that...

So AGAIN I have shut YOU down.

You seem to forget whose house you're in... This is an AGD board, with people who are Mag fans. (Yes we have some cocker & angel ones here. We have a quota ) If you are SOOOOO against Mags, why do you continue to post here? You're not changing any minds...

And no. You have not shut me down. There's another post of yours that says that the cocker will outrange the mag. You're proving our point. You don't know what you are talking about. Then there was your post stating that the cocker wasn't designed to last 10 years (like the mag). And that it was designed for the rough & tumble tournament player. Can you say "Huh?". I know the rest of us are...

You're also comparing 2 different model guns... See, the 68 classic came out right the first time. So it didn't NEED to be continually upgraded like the cocker models. Now that there are upgrades, the users of said markers can purchase them. If you want a really good comparison, why not do the Orracle and the RT Pro. They are 2 similarly priced guns at the same level. Want to start the comparisons? Go right ahead. And we'll show you that your unintelligent posts are unwelcome and unwanted around here.

Take the hint friend... You're picking a fight in our house. And we outnumber you by LOTS. Does the word "Custer" mean anything to you?

[Jeb_Hoge]

Originally posted by strongboy2005
If you buy an automag then I guarantee you I give you a maximum of 2 years, if you're serious about paintball, before you get an autococker, love it, and apply the tactics you had to learn from using a lesser gun for the time before you had your cocker. Then you will realize how much you wish that you had got an autococker in the first place because you will try to sell your $400 mag and only get $200 for it on eBay. Hey, it's not spam, it's what happened to me, and I regret buying my stock mag since. If you get a mag make sure you have $500 or so to trick it out with, or it won't be worth your while.

Oh, what a load. I was going to stay out of this but THIS post just slayed me. A "lesser gun"? Than a COCKER?

I have to agree with the posters who suggest the TKO Mag from pbgear.com. It's a good, inexpensive way to pick up a starter Automag that DOESN'T have to have HPA. Get it from there, or see if Pev's can do something similar at a similar price, and get Pev's to set up an antisiphon CO2 valve on your tank. Then, just avoid trying to be some finger-fluttering electroboy and learn to shoot it smoothly and accurately. Later on, when you've saved a little more, get an HPA tank, then get an Intelliframe, THEN get a Retrovalve.

[FalconGuy016]

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA I cant believe you brought this back up, this is from monthes ago

[Nomad]

And just HOW many Cocker VS Mag threads are there on AO again?

[MinimagRockin']

So what if an espyder is closing in on a classic mags performance (which I think is total crap, those things still suck). It's not like AGD has sat on it's hands and only sold the stock mags for 10+ years. Why don't you compare a piranha to an xmag. I feel sorry for pmi and kingman if it's taken them 15 years to even come close to agds design. Also all mags have used the same basic valve technology since their conception so just because they don't put 45 frames or whatever on the classics (which really has no performance improvements anyway) doesn't mean anything, they do put intelliframes on the rts.

[strongboy2005]

Originally posted by Dayspring

Bust a hose on the field. Ooops. Forgot about that...

Why would you bust a hose on the field? What are you talking about? A pnumatics hose? Those things have maybe 300 psi in them they aren't gonna bust dude.

Originally posted by Dayspring

the 68 classic came out right the first time. So it didn't NEED to be continually upgraded like the cocker models.

Hah. What a joke. Stock 68 classics are terrible. Those things have big huge heavy trigger pulls and weigh a ton. So are you saying that if you were offered a 2003 autococker and a classic 68 mag you'd take a mag?

Originally posted by Jeb_Hoge

A "lesser gun"? Than a COCKER?

exactly. classic 68 mags are old and outdated. the only things that can compete with the new 2003 cockers are the RT-Pros.

Originally posted by MinimagRockin'

So what if an espyder is closing in on a classic mags performance. It's not like AGD has sat on it's hands and only sold the stock mags for 10+ years. Why don't you compare a piranha to an xmag. I feel sorry for pmi and kingman if it's taken them 15 years to even come close to agds design. Also all mags have used the same basic valve technology since their conception so just because they don't put 45 frames or whatever on the classics (which really has no performance improvements anyway) doesn't mean anything, they do put intelliframes on the rts.

Why would you feel sorry for PMI or Kingman? They have built a gun that competes with the classic mag and AGD has always been one of the "big boys" and PMI and Kingman have always been the newbie companies. I am saying that "stock mags" should be removed from the market. It would be as if a "stock autococker" were the same thing as it used to be in 1996. Well they aren't, but mags are. They aren't improving on the design with the classics. They are just making more guns. 45 frames look better, and do offer preformance issues. I would respect AGD if they threw out their stock mags and made a new stock mag that could keep up with the stock 2003 autocockers.

[Timmee]

Originally posted by strongboy2005

Why would you bust a hose on the field? What are you talking about? A pnumatics hose? Those things have maybe 300 psi in them they aren't gonna bust dude.

Autococker pneumatic hoses shouldn't have that much pressure in them. At most, they should have 100 psi. Also, it is possible for the hose to pop off the hose barb.

Hah. What a joke. Stock 68 classics are terrible. Those things have big huge heavy trigger pulls and weigh a ton. So are you saying that if you were offered a 2003 autococker and a classic 68 mag you'd take a mag?

This is a subjective argument. If you have a hard time pulling a 'Mag trigger, or have a problem with its "tonnage", it might be time to hit the gym.

exactly. classic 68 mags are old and outdated. the only things that can compete with the new 2003 cockers are the RT-Pros.

This is also a subject argument. If someone is comfortable with their 'Mag, they might not be as fast with a 'Cocker. Also, the 'Mag and the 'Cocker might fit differently into peoples hands. It's possible that if a 'Cocker seems less comfortable to a person, they won't be able to play as well as with a 'Mag.

Why would you feel sorry for PMI or Kingman? They have built a gun that competes with the classic mag and AGD has always been one of the "big boys" and PMI and Kingman have always been the newbie companies. I am saying that "stock mags" should be removed from the market. It would be as if a "stock autococker" were the same thing as it used to be in 1996. Well they aren't, but mags are. They aren't improving on the design with the classics. They are just making more guns. 45 frames look better, and do offer preformance issues. I would respect AGD if they threw out their stock mags and made a new stock mag that could keep up with the stock 2003 autocockers.

Hmm, why would a company remove a marker from the market, if it's still selling? Doesn't seem like good business sense to me. Also, your argument about the 45 frame is the same as most of your arguments, subjective.

It's pretty obvious that we can't change your mind, as it should be equally obvious that you can't change ours. Let's agree to disagree on this issue, and we can all concentrate on the important things (like having fun, playing paintball, etc).

[Automaggin2]

Wow dude, your a PW.

I just switched from mag to cocker, and i couldnt have been happier. There is just something about the way the cocker shoots that makes me wanna dance . I love the sound, the feel of the trigger, and the way the back block moves. Another reason why i love it cause im a die-hard tinkerer. I love to tinker, and thats what cockers are for!

[Timmee]

Originally posted by Automaggin2
Wow dude, your a PW.

I just switched from mag to cocker, and i couldnt have been happier. There is just something about the way the cocker shoots that makes me wanna dance . I love the sound, the feel of the trigger, and the way the back block moves. Another reason why i love it cause im a die-hard tinkerer. I love to tinker, and thats what cockers are for!

Are you calling me a PW? PW usually only leave one line messages without real content. Quantity over quality. I happen to strive for both.

Also, I'm glad that you enjoy your Autococker. As I said in my previous post, it's an individual matter of preference. I am also not refuting that the Autococker is a great marker, I own one myself. Which one do I use more? Whichever one suits my mood.

[AutoMaggot]

I've gone through a LOT of cockers, and a few mag variations as well... the big reason I made the switch a couple years back is so I could pinch my paintballs whenever I would rip on the trigger. Since then, I have graduated to Angels, Intimidators, Emags, and all kinds of other guns... but I usually always would end up with another cocker since they could pinch.

Right now, tho, I shoot a Vision Rat... and im thoroughly impressed... but we dropped a Level 10 Kit into a buds 68 Classic and I was BLOWN AWAY. Now, I thought the bolt pressure would be something like an autococker... my Millenium Freeeflow was the lowest cycling pressure, and it was pretty nuts... but it doesnt compare *POOF*when you look at what LX can do.

Its making me think of ditching the Rat for an LX Emag of some kind... therefore, I think now the only preference difference between mags and cockers are the trigger variations.

Warning - Do not circumvent cuss filter. Miscue

[YourMasterJulian]

stock automags and autocockers are both good guns, personally i think stock autocockers are better than stock mags. Now that they come with a hinge frame, they are pretty hard to beat, and the stock pneumatics are actually really good. People who say autocockers are not dependable are silly. They are dependable. Autocockers are not complicated at all, and people who say that it sucks because it has 50 moving parts havent really spent time learning how a cocker works. Sure, maybe 50 parts are moving...if you counted screws, trigger, rods, back block etc as moving parts. Autocockers are actually very simple machines, and can last just as long as automags. They mess up when people start messing with them without first spending the 5 minutes it takes to go online and learn everything there is to know about them.

Both can be great, i currently own an autococker but im thinking about going to the LX Rt path. They both shoot accurately. The autococker is having its moment in the sun right now due to its new inovations such as hinge and electric frames. Autocockers are also very stylish, where as i think many people are not impressed with the automags appearance anymore. I hate to say it, but the LX comes late now, since the autococker has been able to pinch since the beginning of its creation.

and of course, both have ULTRA LOW RESALE VALUE

[halB]

Why would you bust a hose on the field? What are you talking about? A pnumatics hose? Those things have maybe 300 psi in them they aren't gonna bust dude.

ive seen it happen at my field more times than you can believe, one on a guy with a brand new black magic and another time on a guy with an older cocker. it was quite funny to watch him shooting from the back and have to try to shove the hose back on midway through the game. poor guy.

btw, just because you say the stock 68 classics trigger is heavy doesnt mean thats bad. some of us prefer things you dont, its called different tastes. i happen to prefer a mag over a cocker trigger any day of the week. its just so much more natural. i havent seen too many mags at my field, but ill tell you you wont see the mag owners in between games "tinkering" with their guns to get it to perform "at its optimum level" or just to get it to perform at all.

[JT2002]

Originally posted by InfinatyBPS
Yes its comparable in performance, but not in status, which is what I assumed he cared about if he felt he needed a "high end" marker...

well, hem hem, a stock (it hurts to say this word and to even think bout the name) cocker isn't exactly a "high end" gun. its relatively low end, till u spend 100 or so on front kit. new bolt here, 100 plus frame there, 250 milling and anno, back block there, free flow kit,....... its never ending.

mag side of it...
Retro valve 200
intelli frame 120
new body 150
lvl 10 85
its all very straightfoward. simple.

oh infinity, and everyone else (especially creative mayhem) look at my sig, youll find a very nice phrase for intelligence

[strongboy2005]

Originally posted by JT2002

well, hem hem, a stock (it hurts to say this word and to even think bout the name) cocker isn't exactly a "high end" gun. its relatively low end, till u spend 100 or so on front kit. new bolt here, 100 plus frame there, 250 milling and anno, back block there, free flow kit,....... its never ending.

mag side of it...
Retro valve 200
intelli frame 120
new body 150
lvl 10 85
its all very straightfoward. simple.

oh infinity, and everyone else (especially creative mayhem) look at my sig, youll find a very nice phrase for intelligence

the 2003 cockers? they come with hinges already, and the only things i could think of is a new bolt, possibly a pnumatics reg, or 3-way. The rest of the stock parts come ready to go. $250 milling and ano? If you are saying that a stock 2003 cocker is ugly then you have things way out of preportion. Free flow kit? Internals? Do you even know what you're talking about? Back Block? Why?

-----------------------------------------------------

So...
$350 - autococker that comes stock better than an LX RT Mag
+ $50 Delrin bolt, just to spare the inside of the body
+ $50 Rock reg, just for the comfort of ajustablitity
+ $50 New 3-way, personal preference, depends on how short/smooth/efficent you want your cocker

$500 - new cocker, tournament ready

-----------------------------------------------------

What you added was a...
$245 - Classic Automag
+ $200 Retro valve (trade in program)
+ $120 Intelliframe
+ $150 New Body
+ $85 LX

$800 - new automag, tournament ready

-----------------------------------------------------

So there you have it, plain and simple.

[PTheDevil]

I currently Own both guns....I love them both...Primary use the cocker for when I play back...then move up slowly....For my mag....I use that gun for those gung HO!! runs and when i play up front...both guns are as reliable to me as my dog....PS i had my cocker for about a year and it only went out of timing 4x's

[halB]

Free flow kit? Internals? Do you even know what you're talking about?

short of buying a tornado f5 e conversion or whatever one has that built in eye, its the only way to get it to be chop proof.

and why the hell do u keep on throwing in a new body? you dont need it.

oh yes, and i do believe u forgot to include a new regulator on the cocker, those stock ones simply starve teh gun of air.

[Dayspring]

You just don't get it do you? You're not going to change any minds here. You're trying to convert a population that is devoted to the gun and company and to each other.

Also- you stated back there that the pneumatics hoses won't ever rupture. Well, I saw several in a day blow up. I thought that was impossible?

Also, in this most recent display of your intelligence , you are saying a stock cocker is better than an LX RT Pro. How exactly is that right? They come stock with the intelliframe. Stock with the fastest shooting valve in paintball. Stock with the renowned Level 10 system. Now, tell me how that's not better than anything you just threw together? Do we need a new reg? Nope... Do we need to buy air fittings? Nope... Air it up and go. Also, don't go spouting off saying that you need to spend all the $ in the world to be able to compete in tourneys. Look at Tippmann Effect. Perfect example.

Why don't you just leave our nice home alone and cause trouble somewhere else. We like our mags. You like your cocker. I'm not going to debate that. You obviously had a bad experience with your mag. Sucks for you. Doesn't mean that EVERY mag is crap. You have your opinion. We have ours. They differ. We're allowed to do that.

Just please quit trying to prove us wrong. Trying to change somebody's opinionwhen they aren't going to is like trying to get blood from a stone. NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. We have our views of cockers. We view our guns as higher tech. You view it otherwise. And you'reallowed to think that. Don't go citing popular opinion. A person is smart. PEOPLE are dumb and will follow anybody with flashy stuff. WGP uses fancy advertising to get their products out. AGD lets their actions speak for their guns. I don't see many fields having rental cockers do you? Wonder why that is...

Originally posted by strongboy2005


the 2003 cockers? they come with hinges already, and the only things i could think of is a new bolt, possibly a pnumatics reg, or 3-way. The rest of the stock parts come ready to go. $250 milling and ano? If you are saying that a stock 2003 cocker is ugly then you have things way out of preportion. Free flow kit? Internals? Do you even know what you're talking about? Back Block? Why?

-----------------------------------------------------

So...
$350 - autococker that comes stock better than an LX RT Mag
+ $50 Delrin bolt, just to spare the inside of the body
+ $50 Rock reg, just for the comfort of ajustablitity
+ $50 New 3-way, personal preference, depends on how short/smooth/efficent you want your cocker

$500 - new cocker, tournament ready

-----------------------------------------------------

What you added was a...
$245 - Classic Automag
+ $200 Retro valve (trade in program)
+ $120 Intelliframe
+ $150 New Body
+ $85 LX

$800 - new automag, tournament ready

-----------------------------------------------------

So there you have it, plain and simple.

[MinimagRockin']

So what we have established thus far is that stock autocockers are better than stock mag classics (which still could be debated endlessly, but we'll give the cocker the benefit of the doubt in this argument)? As far as I know you can get a 68 classic for alot cheaper than an autococker. And if you want to spend more money you can purchase a better mag than cocker through AGD called a RTP or EMAG...

[strongboy2005]

Originally posted by halB


short of buying a tornado f5 e conversion or whatever one has that built in eye, its the only way to get it to be chop proof.

and why the hell do u keep on throwing in a new body? you dont need it.

oh yes, and i do believe u forgot to include a new regulator on the cocker, those stock ones simply starve teh gun of air.

My friend has a 2002 and never has problems with chopping, and my LP freeflow certainly doesn't chop.

Why do I keep putting on a body? Well, quite simply, I didn't:

Originally posted by JT2002

mag side of it...
Retro valve 200
intelli frame 120
new body 150
lvl 10 85
its all very straightfoward. simple.

see the part where it says "new body 150"? there you go.

Starving the gun for air? Those inline regs are factory set. Only reason you'd need a new one is to let LESS pressure into the gun.

Originally posted by Dayspring

Also- you stated back there that the pneumatics hoses won't ever rupture. Well, I saw several in a day blow up. I thought that was impossible?

Also, in this most recent display of your intelligence , you are saying a stock cocker is better than an LX RT Pro. How exactly is that right? They come stock with the intelliframe. Stock with the fastest shooting valve in paintball. Stock with the renowned Level 10 system. Now, tell me how that's not better than anything you just threw together? Do we need a new reg? Nope... Do we need to buy air fittings? Nope... Air it up and go.

I don't see many fields having rental cockers do you? Wonder why that is...

I own a cocker, 2 of my friends own 2 cockers, and another one of my friends has a cocker. We play every weekend. Never seen a hose blow up.

The stock 2003 cockers come with hinge frames. "The fastest recharging valve in paintball"... So what? Tourneys are capped at 13 bps, which is easily achieveable with a stock 2003 cocker.

As for the parts you listed...

Do cockers need a new reg ... not if you keep them stock.
Do cockers need to buy air fittings ... well all guns do including mags.
It's plain and simple, your cocker arrives, you screw in the tank, you throw on a hopper with some paint and play.

Do stock mags come with bottom lines? No.
Do stock mags come with air fittings? No.
Do stock mags come with any barrel whatsoever? No.
Do stock mags come with any kind of foregrip? No.
Do stock mags AT LEAST come with a vertical adapter so you can put in a foregrip? No.

So I guess your "gas it up and go" philosophy kind of back fired didn't it? I guess if you had THOUGHT before you posted you would have realized how INCORRECT your "gas it up and go" statement is.

As for the rentals. Who cares? I guess they finally assumed that tippmanns were too high quality to rent out and replaced them with a less quality product. You asked...