Some interesting Reffing Observations...

[cphilip]

While Fatman and our kids and I were reffing a 3 man this past Saturday a couple of interesting things came out of the NPPL rules and the common interpretations I normaly thought were applied that I thought I would share in case you ever found yourself in this situation.

First situation:

The Format was center flag. The Flag was draped over a rope in the middle of this complex bunker. A player advanced to the center bunker and the player reached and grabbed the end of the Flag and proceeded to start his downward hand motion. Just as he did this he was struck on the forearm. I saw the shell explode. The Flag was still draped over the rope but was being pulled downward. My immediate call on the field was no pull due to the fact that I interpreted that the did not have complete posession of the flag due to the way it was hung. Had it been clipped on or something it would have come free. I made the wrong call according to NPPL. A review on protest showed that the moment of "Pull" is when he "grabbed" the flag. No mention of how it is hung or attached. So this call was overturned as it should be. I had never seen it actually interpreted when the flag was hung in that fashion and I can bet many of you would have thought the same way. But there is no change in the rules just because the flag is hung in a different fashion. It makes sense. However I do feel "physically grabs" needs to be clearly defined. I do not think that is sufficent for all situations.

Here is the rule itself:

3.05. A first flag pull occurs when a player not eliminated physically grabs the center flag, in a five player game, or his opponents flag, in a ten-player game, before a player from the other team manages to do the same. Only one team in a game may earn first flag pull points.



However that brings up some interesting scenario's as to what might could occur.

First Scenario:

Say, for instance, the player reaches and "grabs" it but then proceeds to not pull it clean and take possession of it. If you follow NPPL rules he had the pull. And as such he is now in possesion of it and its part of his equipment. Even though he is not holding it. So under NPPL rules anyone can shoot that flag and take that player out! Wouldn't that be cool?

Second scenario:

Same kind of thing as the part of possesion of equipment. A player in one bunker throws a pod of paint to another. In mid flight a ball hits the pod. One of those players is out? Is that still equipment? If so then which one? The one who threw it? Or the one it's closest too? In this case does the 5 foot rule exception for pods apply when throwing empty pods the same as throwing full pods? Are they not equipment anymore? If that one is so then if its not within 5 feet of either when its hit is anyone out? Or is it the player that it lands nearest too? I would have to rule that they would not count as a hit as they are specificaly exempt as equipment without reference to wether they are used or not or within 5 feet or not. Seems like that is what its meaning. But under this rule throwing your marker would apply. But that is covered under unsportsmans like actions as well.

here is the equipment exception rule:

10.25. Players that separate from any piece of equipment or clothing that they brought onto the game field by more than 5 feet, except squeegees, rags or pods used in holding paintballs will be immediately eliminated.




Third Scenario:

Three players after a sweep of the other side chose to hang the flag together. After inspection one of the three is foudn to have paint and eliminated. Did they hang the flag? Yes indeed they should have inspected each other before hanging but they didn't. Not addresses in the rules? This actualy happend to us yesterday. We did allow the flag hang.


Also here is the paintcheck proceedure for end of game. Did you know you could not declare the flag carrier neutral for paintcheck?

And did you know that the Flag Hanger is supposed to be called neutral and inspected BEFORE ending the game?

9.1 NEUTRALITY

9.11. Judges will make every effort to perform a paintcheck without calling a player neutral. However, a judge, at his discretion, may declare a player neutral.

9.12. No flag carrier will ever be stopped and declared neutral for the purposes of performing a paintcheck.

9.13. A judge calling a player neutral will indicate the same to all players on the field by standing over the player, shouting, “Neutral”, and holding his arms above his head or waiving them.

9.14. A player declared neutral cannot be eliminated from the game or moved on, either by opposing team members or his own teammates, while in the state of neutrality.

9.15. A judge may move a neutral player’s equipment and or request that such player expose additional areas for examination.

9.16. Players not declared neutral may be eliminated while being checked.

9.2. FLAG CARRIERS

9.21. When a player carrying a flag breaks the plane of the flag station boundary, the flag judge will signal “time” and the player carrying the flag is immediately declared neutral.

9.22. The flag carrier will be subjected to a paintcheck immediately upon being declared neutral.

9.23. If the flag carrier is clean, the flag judge will declare “Game over” to the Ultimate Judge who will then announce the completion of the game in accordance with the provisions specified in Section 2.22 hereof.

here is some realy odd flag pull and hang stuff no one uses but its in the NPPL rules!

11.04. A player eliminated while in possession of a flag will remain on the field of play, holding the flag at arms length and at eye level, until that flag is recovered by another player, from ether team. Flags must be surrendered by the eliminated flag holder to any player touching it.

11.05. Flags recaptured must be brought back to its flag station by the most direct route and in the most expeditious manner that does not involve the carrier in a confrontation with opposing players. It must be hung in substantially the same place as prior to the start of the game.

11.1 FLAG HANGS

11.12. If the flag carrier breaking the plane of a flag station as specified in Section 11.11 hereof is found to have a hit on him, the flag judge will radio his counterpart to rehang the flag. The replacement flag will be immediately hung in the center flag station in a five man game and the appropriate flag station in a ten man game.




Some stuff to think about. Its not as easy as you may think to ref an event. You need to be up on these things. Weird stuff happens!!!!

[shartley]

Second scenario:

Same kind of thing as the part of possesion of equipment. A player in one bunker throws a pod of paint to another. In mid flight a ball hits the pod. One of those players is out? Is that still equipment? If so then which one? The one who threw it? Or the one it's closest too? In this case does the 5 foot rule exception for pods apply when throwing empty pods the same as throwing full pods? Are they not equipment anymore? If that one is so then if its not within 5 feet of either when its hit is anyone out? Or is it the player that it lands nearest too? I would have to rule that they would not count as a hit as they are specificaly exempt as equipment without reference to wether they are used or not or within 5 feet or not. Seems like that is what its meaning. But under this rule throwing your marker would apply. But that is covered under unsportsmans like actions as well.

here is the equipment exception rule:

10.25. Players that separate from any piece of equipment or clothing that they brought onto the game field by more than 5 feet, except squeegees, rags or pods used in holding paintballs will be immediately eliminated.

To me this is an easy one. It comes down to possession. The last person touching the pod would be its owner, and since the pod has not reached the other player (and he/she has not physically taken possession of it) the “hit” and thus elimination belongs to the person who threw it.

This would not however apply to tossing spent pods… but this practice has always seemed silly to me since it is usually easier to find spent pods after a game when left IN a bunker vs tossed in the direction of the sideline. Of course I have never either left a pod or tossed one… after filling, I put it back in my pack. Sure it takes a second or two more, but I make sure I am well protected when filling anyway. OH, sorry… I forgot to add WHY it does not apply to spent pods…

, rags or pods used in holding paintballs

When empty, the pod is no longer holding paintballs or being used for such. I believe this rule was to cover all equipment being actively used in play, as a weapon, ammunition, or container for said ammunition. If the pod HAS balls in it, it can still be used to dispense a crucial part of the weapon system…. However when empty, it holds no real value to the game…

However, you bring up two totally different sets of guidelines for that question… one is the 5 foot rule, and the other is what is valid equipment and what constitutes a “hit” resulting in elimination. Clearly the 5 foot rule still indicates original ownership of the equipment, tossed, left, or what-not. It indicates that the individual binging the equipment ON the field is its “owner”. The 5 foot rule would allow an individual to be farther away from THAT piece of equipment and not be automatically called out.. BUT it does not say a thing about what happens if that equipment got HIT…. Again… only that being farther than 5 feet from it would not cause them (in itself) to be automatically eliminated.

Thus, I would say that my original comment about ownership and possession of the equipment would be the determining factor. The person tossing the pod would be called out, just as if the pod was still on their person. Only after the pod becomes the property of the other player does the elimination also transfer. And this would only happen by the other player physically touching the pod…. Sort of like passing a football…. Until the receiver actually gets control of the ball does it become their property and thus any rulings made are dictated by who had “control” of the ball last. But at NO time is the ball “ownerless”.

(I may comment later on the other rules if I have time….)

[cphilip]

I would have leaned that way too Sam but it apears the pod is specificaly exempt as "discarded" equipment empty or not. For instance it's common practice to leave a pod in a bunker for a following player. You cannot shoot a player that is over five feet away out by shooting that pod in that case. And anyone may use it. I do not agree it should be exempt in every situation but it is. Under NPPL anyway...and I feel that is another area that there should be some redefining of the rules.

Of course you change this BEFORE the captains meeting and vary any of them as you wish. But if you do not do it then and you annouce your following NPPL rules and not provide this as an exception to them then you are kind of stuck with them for that time being. And you need to make a call on the field accordingly.

[hitech]

Originally posted by cphilip
I do not agree it should be exempt in every situation but it is.

I agree with you. A player should have to keep ALL equipment they cam eon the field with. If it's hit, they are out, period. Having equipment hit that was not "attached" happened to a teammate of mine in a tournament. His hopper fell off. When an opposing played realized it, he shot it and my teammate was out. As it should be. Not that I thought so at the time

[shartley]

Agreed.

[gatorchris]

Pods, full or empty, can be passed or left for team mates. The question of ownership is only while the player is touching it. This is the easiest way to explain ownership in relation to the rules. Edit: Heres why its interpreted this way, key words are in bold.

10.21. A player is eliminated if a paintball shot by a live member of the opposing team or such player’s team strikes that player or anything he is wearing or carrying and such paintball breaks upon the object struck

Player A is running to a bunker and his hopper falls off as he dives in. It is in the open and gets hit. Player A is now stuck in a five foot halo around that hopper. He cant pick it up because when he touches it he is eliminated for having equipment with an obvious hit. He also can not advance because he cant move 5 feet away from his equipment. The key there is he is not in posession of his equipment while it is on the ground, but he is also bound to it by the rules of ownership (makes sense, but doesnt). Same applies to pods, they can be passed but ownership doesnt matter until someone is physically touching it. If Player A slides a pod across the field to Player B in another bunker and it gets hit along the way it is now marked. If Player B touches it hes gone, if he leaves it alone hes fine. Ownership doesnt matter until someone touches it, and that is the way the rules are applied by every series I have played and reffed.

The flag is somewhat unique, its not considered equipment until it is legally grabbed. There is some judgement that has to be applied in a lot of these situations. Correct, he legally has posession as soon as he grabs the flag (has to get a grip), but depending on where and how its hung it may not be a clean grab. Clips snag, it is wrapped incorrectly, those have to be given some slack. The ref on the call should give the player the grab and get the flag off the stand and give it to the player in the bunker. Once the flag is owned it plays in the above scenario. If it gets hit and the player is touching it hes gone. If the player drops it and it gets hit he cant leave the five foot halo around it, but cant pick it up either.

Correct on the flag hang rules, the ref that observes the hang should call "time" to tell the timer to stop the clock. That time is critical in case the game has to be restarted for a player hanging the flag with a hit. Neutral is a given because play stops the second he hangs it for the paint check.

One of the rules I have trouble with is the last player of a team being eliminated on a penalty automatically awards the hang to the opposing team. Here's another one rarely called due to weak refs, but is a violation. Player goes to jump a bunker and puts his hand on it balance, whats the call?

[cphilip]

I agree with you in all but the pod thing as NPPL rules are now written. The way you describe is the way it is commonly played but it is clearly not the actual rules. They are specifically exempt as equipment. And the rules say nothing about wether they are full or not. SAme with towels and sqweegies. Exempt.

...except squeegees, rags or pods...

I think it should be specific too and I know many of us play that way. And I agree that your thoughts are in alinement with what most are doing. But its not in the NPPL rules so if you wish to do that then you have to annouce that during captains meeting that you are varying on that rule. And any other. then its fine. But many forget to point out the variances they are using for lack of knowledge that they are indeed varrying the rules. Thats the point of this entire thread. Know the rules as they are so you can make sure everyone knows your varying them or you will be required to stick to them in a dispute.

[cphilip]

I spent about two hours today rewriting a set of rules called "2002 Common Variant Rules for local Tournaments" derived from Official NPPL Rules. This is for my use at local tournaments. In Word format so if anyone wants a set to vary some more for themselves give me a day or two and I can email it to you. I still have to finish the last few sections and then number it and make a table of content. that will slow me down some. I have the worst of it done though i think. Its amasing how much of it is taken out or rewritten for the style of play we are realy do.

[DaosBeoulve]

I'd love of copy of that cphilip.

[cphilip]

You got it!!! Soon as I have it done I will let you know. You can then change it to suit your needs.

[athomas]

Originally posted by gatorchris

Player A is running to a bunker and his hopper falls off as he dives in. It is in the open and gets hit. Player A is now stuck in a five foot halo around that hopper. He cant pick it up because when he touches it he is eliminated for having equipment with an obvious hit. He also can not advance because he cant move 5 feet away from his equipment. The key there is he is not in posession of his equipment while it is on the ground, but he is also bound to it by the rules of ownership (makes sense, but doesnt

The hopper hit would count as an elimination in this case. The hopper is a piece of the players equipment, is still within 5' of the player and is therefore still considered to be in his possession. It would be the same as layin your gun down and it gets hit. you would be elimninated.

[cphilip]

Yep! Because hoppers are not specificaly listed as an exceptions it will always remain equipment so subject to the marking rules and also will be subject to this rule as well:

10.25. Players that separate from any piece of equipment or clothing that they brought onto the game field by more than 5 feet, except squeegees, rags or pods used in holding paintballs will be immediately eliminated

So using that scenario then if its within five feet it can be struck and it will eliminated the player or if its beyond five feet he/she is eliminated anyway.

Anything except squeegees, rags or pods.

[Shirow]

But can you throw a squeegee and a pod at another player in an effort to give them concussion, and then bunker them? That's the real meat of the matter.

[Mantis]

I've been wondering about some of these rules nuances... hopefully I can worry about them if my tourney team ever gets off the ground.
I was also wondering about what Shirow mentioned, what if you bean an opposing player with an empty pod as a distraction tool? I imagine that might be covered under unsportsmanlike conduct however.
Also, what if I have some sort of rag/pod device that I throw out in front of me as I run across a lane, so that it might catch a few rounds for me?

[Shirow]

Yeah, that would be pretty funny, lobbing empty pods at people. Well, they wouldn't find it very amusing I wouldn't think, but it would be interesting for any spectators. Maybe you could fill them with baking soda and vinegar.

[cphilip]

LOL... I assume that is adressed here under 1 for 1 penaties:

(2) fighting or other hostile physical contact.

[yeahthatsme]

hey phil(mind if i call ya phil?) can i get a copy of those rules?

[cphilip]

Uncle Phil to you unless your older than me!

Sure! I am still working on me but they will be availble in a day or so.

[gatorchris]

I respectfully disagree with all of you. I have been both a player and a ref in a situation like this with a hopper falling off and getting shot. It is why I posted an excerpt from 10.21. 10.21 is eliminations for marking, 10.25 is eliminations for seperating from equipment, they cant be used to rule on each other. Letter of the law reading of 10.21 says holding or carrying, it is very specific. It is what enables a player holding a pod or squeegie that gets shot to get eliminated, even though they arent considered equipment. It also works inversely and allows you to have equipment within five feet get marked as long as you arent actually in posession (defined as holding or carrying) of it, i.e. the hopper, or your pack if it fell off.

It is open for interpretation, but the ultimates I have dealt with have all said the same thing. Just for reference I have reffed in two state series in Texas, and play in another where we are the top team in our division. I feel I have a firm understanding of these rules after that and being made a field ultimate 2 times this season alone. It honestly may be intrepreted differently in different parts of the country, but thats the bad thing about rules, they arent ever specific enough for every situation. It is a great way to anchor a player down so he cant move by marking a hopper when it falls off. Hes totally humped at that point, he cant leave it, but he cant touch it either, so hes stuck hand feeding out of one bunker.

[shartley]

Well actually, I just witnessed something that makes me wonder about those rules Phil. I think actually those Reffing the games might be able to determine what are enforceable rules and what are not. They might even be able to make on the fly adjustments to the rules as well depending on if they like a particular team or player over the other ones. The rules may in fact be there just to use when they WANT to and to give a rough guideline for players, but not really mean anything at all.

Who knows… isn’t that the way other rules work?

Kind of puts a twist on things doesn't it?

[gatorchris]

The ref's always win right? As long as a tournament and series the reffing is interpreted the same across the board its OK. Its when field 1 is calling people leaning over the tape, and field 2 is calling people touching the tape only that you run into grief. Again, every time Ive seen this happen the rules have been applied the same, so I guess its ok. Consistency is important.

[hitech]

Just a clarification, as I am the one who posted the hopper flying off example. This happened BEFORE the NPPL existed. It was in one of Jim Lively 's tournaments. I'm not trying to say that it isn't a good example to use to interpret the rules with. Just that in my case it did NOT happen in an NPPL tournament.

[shartley]

Originally posted by gatorchris
The ref's always win right? As long as a tournament and series the reffing is interpreted the same across the board its OK. Its when field 1 is calling people leaning over the tape, and field 2 is calling people touching the tape only that you run into grief. Again, every time Ive seen this happen the rules have been applied the same, so I guess its ok. Consistency is important.

Oh, I AGREE! Well said!

But time after time I see things NOT being consistent. Special allowances are made for one player or team and the other is held to stricter enforcement. It is not even a matter of being on a different field within a complex of fields, this happens on the same field at the same time.

I agree that consistency is key. What should someone do if they see this inconsistency happening? Fire the Refs? Complain to the field owner? What?

[hitech]

Originally posted by gatorchris
It is a great way to anchor a player down so he cant move by marking a hopper when it falls off.

Just curious, what would happen if in the process of being marked the hopper moved more than five feet away?

[shartley]

Originally posted by hitech


Just curious, what would happen if in the process of being marked the hopper moved more than five feet away?

They would call in the ambulance.

[hitech]

Originally posted by shartley

Special allowances are made for one player...What should someone do if they see this inconsistency happening? Fire the Refs? Complain to the field owner? What?

Yes, that "bothered" me also. Dave "Youngblood" was allowed to break a rule so he could maintain his apperance. There wasn't anything I could do, and I was a reffing the tournament!

[gatorchris]

Go to the ultimate for the tourney, then to the promoter. If the fix is in and they dont do anything you are either wrong or they arent legit. If you still feel that strongly that its rigged all you can really do is make people aware. Word of mouth is powerful in local ball, you get enough of your Am and Nov teams saying that promoter x isnt on the level, they arent going to get the draw they want and in theory will shape up.

[gatorchris]

Just curious, what would happen if in the process of being marked the hopper moved more than five feet away?

I would probably chrono the player moving it I dont have to worry about that either way, I use a Halo, I think it would take a middle to high bore rifle to get that thing moving

[cphilip]

Originally posted by gatorchris
I respectfully disagree with all of you. 10.21 is eliminations for marking, 10.25 is eliminations for seperating from equipment, they cant be used to rule on each other.

You are not in disagreement at all with us and niether are we with you. We were talking about pods thrown, dropped discarded etc not being "carried" at the time they are shot. Here is what you reffer too:

10.21. A player is eliminated if a paintball shot by a live member of the opposing team or such player’s team strikes that player or anything he is wearing or carrying...

We are in agreement on that. He could be carrying a watermellon and it would be an elimination!

The question comes in when it strikes it after it's not in his possession and so not his equipment anymore by the exception for pods etc and then someone picks it up. We all interpret that to be an elimination and pretty much have too, I guess, but it's at odds with the equipment rule and exception AND with 10.21 where he is described because he is no longer carrying it. It's when you try and apply it to the person not touching it at the time its marked and picking it up later that its totaly an interpretation only made nessecary by lack of a NPPL rule itself.

You and I interpret it the same way for lack of anything better. It should be clearly defined was the point I was trying to make. And we all define it that same way as you do in Texas I think. No need to worry about that. It's cool we are just dicussing "what ifs". See now what I was trying to get at? Sorry I was not clear on it.

Still interesting how these traditional interpretations seem to evolve and people think they are in the NPPL Rules. Ask em to point it out to you and they cannot. Why?...heck they should be in there! That thing needs an updated and we need to not use it realy localy. I see people saying we are following NPPL rules at local tourneys and are no way near doing so. Its like saying your going to run your meeting my Roberts Rules and then suspending them right away because they are clearly unusable for local formats. Thats why I am writting these down the way we all realy do them. And the spent pod rule will be in mine! Clearly too!!!!

[cphilip]

OK let me clarify this again...

The point was that almost all local small tourneys state openly that they will use NPPL rules. Many MANY of them do. And then go about changing most of it becuase its unusable for them. This can take much time in the captains meetingts and some stuff is forgotten until we are out on the field and trying to sort it out.

A lot of the marking stuff and chrono stuff and some of the basic rules are usable. And then the interpretations we have come to expect were derived from them. But its still not set forth on paper what we realy do. We learn them from experience and trial and error. It's important we all follow the same rules so we can go play nationaly and know what to expect and practice for. It's hight time to adopt a set of standards we all can agree with and put them down on paper with enough lattitude to adjust to the particular field and number of entrants. So each player knows the rules and each judge knows the rules. And if there is a dispute it can clearly be pointed to on a piece of paper. "Right there it is" we can say! Game set match...