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Thread: cocker question

  1. #1
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    cocker question

    i have a ptp sleeper cocker, and its got the sto low pressure internals, i am putting togather an orderof upgrades i want, and i came across the ratt valve. my question is if i install that, will that effect the low pressure opperation of the gun?



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  2. #2
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    It will allow you to drop the operating pressure a little bit. However, if you really wan't the best LP valve, save up for the AKALMP Tornado, it's worth it. It'll allow you to drop your pressure lower than a Rat valve and still keep the efficiency moderately high (although this has a ton to do with your main and valve springs). My personal suggestion is to not worry about your operating pressure, it doesn't really matter how low it is. What you should look into is lowering your cycling pressure.
    Converge Kills

  3. #3
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    im not sure i understnad what you mean cycling pressure?

  4. #4
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    Cycling pressure=cocking pressure: This is the air pressure that is used to cycle your backblock forward and backward to cock the gun. It can be adjusted using your low pressure regulator (on the front block).

    Operating pressure=firing pressure: This is the pressure used to fire the paintball. It is adjusted using your inline regulator.

  5. #5
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    The operating pressure is the pressure the gun fires the ball with, the cycling, aka cocking pressure is the pressure going into the 3 way valve to activate the ram and recock the gun. The lower this is, the better. A new valve will have no effect over the cocking pressure. Go to www.air-powered.com to learn more about cockers.

    The Tornado valve is arguably better than the rat valve, because it has a larger opening for the air to move through. But if you are using it on a stock body, the air chamber drilled into the body is smaller than the hole on the valve, thus defeating the purpose. But if you're running an aftermarket body that has an enlarged air chamber, like the AKA cockers, then that is when you'll get the biggest advantage and see the biggest difference. The MacDev RED valve is also very close in performance to the Tornado, but the hole on the valve ratio to the hole in the body is 1:1, meaning it will be more efficient. Since you have an aftermarket body, though, (and I'm not sure what the diameter of the air chamber is)you might get better results out of the Tornado. (but probably only means the difference between 250 psi and 225) Also, lowering the firing pressure does nothing but decrease efficiency. It does not affect ball breakage or make the gun much quieter. In fact, it will often make the gun less consistant and more picky about paint. I have a cocker with stock internals and it works a lot better running 350 psi than the 290 psi it's capable of running.

    The pneumatic regulator is what adjusts the cocking pressure. All you have to do is turn the pressure all the way down on it, and gradually turn it up until the gun fires reliably, then you're done. You can even get the bolt to bounce off your finger like with the level 10 kit.
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  6. #6
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    Actually, as far as I know, Proteam uses WGP bodies for their Cockers. So the aftermarket performance LP valves would probably do about as well on the F/X as they would on a WGP Cocker.

    Lowering the pressure does not necassarily make a Cocker less efficient. Many people try to lower the pressure on their own, and end up messing up their gas efficiency however. If you know what you're doing, you can lower the operating pressure and maintain decent or even better efficiency. Much of it has to do with your hammer and valve springs. Generally a heavy hammer (with a light hammer spring) and a heavy valve spring will yeild excellent efficiency results. A good exapmle of this is the Freeflow hammer/valve combo.

  7. #7
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    paint magnet, do you personally know how to make the bolt bounce like a lx? does this slow the rate of fire down? could you fill me in on the that would be great thenks for all the info guys

  8. #8
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    You can make a Cocker's bolt bounce off of paint by lowering the cocking/cycling pressure (not to be confused with operating pressure). A lot of this is just tuning your LPR and having a light main spring (use a lighter main spring in combination with a heavier hammer. I would HIGHLY suggest a Freeflow Tungsten hammer and super light main spring for this). Always make sure that you have a heavier valve spring than main spring though, this will help maintain good efficiency and consistancy. Another good idea is to have a lightweight bolt, like the AKALMP Lightning bolt. Using the right ram can help, but it isn't really required to make a Cocker pinch (STO rams are excellent for low cocking pressures). Once you have done most of this, make sure that you know how to adjust your LPR. Turn it as low as it can go before it doesn't fully recock, than turn it up a tad, you can never be sure that during rapid fire your LPR wont lag slightly in recharge rates. I would also suggest having your operating pressure on the higher end (not extremely high, just don't try to lower it too much). That way you can back out your IVG some, and less pressure will be required to bring the hammer's lug over the sear. After finishing this, you should have a Cocker that is capable of pinching paint.

  9. #9
    Getting a cocker to pinch paint is a function of 4-way sealing up at a very low pressure and the lowest possible pressure to actuate your ram.

    Back in the day... ie when dinosaurs roamed the earth and Cockers were hand tuned to be "custom", there were a few tricks to do this

    Ram, strip the ram apart and polish the internals with brasso or nevr dull. I used stock brass front at the time and used brasso.

    4-way, strip it apart and LIGHTLY polish the inside of the 4-way with brasso or never dull.

    Get a good aftermarket front reg and away you go. While the heavy hammer/light mainspring does help. It is not necessary to get a cocker to pinch paint. I set up cocker 14897 to pinch paint (old glossy brick style, circa 1993) with stock hammer and a little lighter springs. It is a pin in the butt to get it set up correctly, but when you do, it is a great thing.


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  10. #10
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    will tis tunning effect the rate of fire i am getting from the gun, cause i can rip it faster then my mag, im stunned and amazed. i just bought an ans jackhammer 2 and a bomb 4-way, and some darlin tri hole bolt its vry light.
    i realy appreiciate all the help.

  11. #11
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    I would get a tornado valve, you won't regret it.

  12. air-powered.com

    Just some good ole cuttin' n pastin' of my articles.

    The Twin Tales - What every autococker owner should know, and all new ones should read...

    The Autococking design IS a pumpgun with some pnuematics thrown on the front in some hodgepodge fashion that for whatever innane reason looks neat, that for whatever reason cycling this strange eye popping hunk of aluminium in the back, an in-elegant solution at best. Now there are two forces at work in this paintball marker called the autococker.

    The Firing Pressure and The Cycling Pressure

    Most markers have a distinction between the two, angels, bushies, ect. Now the difference is adjusting the lpr on most electros results in dwell differences and it gets messy and hard to adjust so most don't do it. Now on an autococker most people replace that front regulator, the one that sticks out horizontally, first because it is not pretty and they want to adjust it not because it is a hard working co2 friendly high flow regulator.

    What the LPR in the autococker does not control is the dwell, ie how long the valve stays open. So it does NOT control velocity, as a rule. What it does control is how fast the system cycles. Freeflow is famous for creating a very low pressure cycling speed while their markers shoot at a normal range of firing pressure. In practice you can drop the LPR to very low pressure with very few mods if any. IE you can pull the backblock with minumum force. With some springing changes and some valving you can drop it to where it will stop on balls. Then you can try the famous stick-finger-in-breech-test, that will amaze your friends, but please before you do, try a carrot. If it chops the carrot in half then you prolly need to work on it a bit more.

    So when you ask I want my marker to be LP? You should specify which pressure system you mean the Cycling or...

    The Firing Pressure

    The Firing Pressure is what determines how far your ball goes, along with dwell but that is out of the scope of this article. Firing pressure is the pressure that sits behind the valve, more than likely it is set by the regulator that screws into your ASA and on stock cockers runs 350-400 psi(Pounds per square inch). The Basic Operation is the hammer and spring with pent up kinetic energy slams into the valve pin pushing the cup seal away from valve hole, air rushes through gap fire paintball and air pressure and the valve spring pushs the cupseal over valve hole sealing it shut and stopping flow of air.

    Having a Low Pressure Firing Marker does not mean that if you put your finger in the breech that it will not be sheared in two, the cycling and firing are separate systems. Now for those wanting to go LP let me offer some reasons why you should not go LP! (But Az, you have an ultra low LP Merlin Cocker..., well I wanted it and it took me many hours to get it setup right and it cost me much more than a normal cocker for no gains in onthe field performance over a higher pressure cocker, just better effiecieny.)

    1. It requires more volume and a better regulator to shoot a paintball at 200 psi than 400 psi, are you experiencing shootdown? Inconsistent velocity even though your paint is good, and your barrel fits your paint? What pressure you running? Can you regulator keep up? Just for example imagine you are shooting a paintball, and you have 2 cubic centimeters of air volume to pull from. Firing at 200 psi requires for easy figuring, 1 cubic cent, firing at 400 psi requires .5 cubic cent. With the 200psi you will get two good shots out of a volume, meanwhile your regulator is trying to fill up the volume. With 400 psi your get 4 shots before empty but meanwhile your regulator is filling up the volume. At 200psi you are making your reg work twice as hard to fill that chamber. At 400psi any reg will keep up with even the most insane rates of fire. I beleive Jeremy Garret said "The circa 98 tornado valves were very inconsistent because no cocker had the air volume to feed them." In the above example it would be like trying to shoot at 200 psi with a .75 air chamber.

    2. It is expensive, you need high quality parts, time and labor. I would say expect to put down 300 for the parts, laber and time, at the least.

    3. Gains are not in performance but in the side issues.

    3. Barrel, good air system and good paint are still and will always be the number one key to the things players want: More Accurate, More Efficient.

    Low Pressure? And everyone says it is good!

    Why does everyone say LP is good? Beats the heck out of me, in most cases it blows your efficiency out of the water, you have to buy a whole bunch of parts and even then you have to tinker with springs and such. LP is hype driven by the certain manufacturers…More on that later.

    How do I get a more efficient marker?

    Alright, after you have bought the most essential items for your marker, a set of allen wrenches, valve tool and some wrenches…Buy yourself a spring kit, because spring kits are important to you if you want the most out of your marker.

    Quite simply you want to sweetspot your regulator, that is setting it high enough that if it goes any higher you actually lose velocity and then using your spring adjustment and or new springs to get the required velocity. How does this work? Quite simply at certain high pressure the high pressure causes the valve to close faster.

    Low Pressure, High Efficiency and all Between.

    Well Some AGD tests have shown most markers only put 60 psi-80 psi stress on the marker from firing pressure. So really most upper level markers put about the same level of stress on the paintball.

    Now an article I wrote in response to a member’s question…

    Some Thoughts:

    On an autococker you have two different pressures, firing pressure and cocking pressure, these are inherently different and have no relation to one another.

    Your Cocking Pressure, determines the cyclic speed, although unless it is horribly low even the fastest fingers should keep up, and whether you chop a ball in the breech.

    How do you achieve a lower cocking pressure. First, you have to be able to adjust your pneumatic regulator, an externally adjustable works fine and saves time but a stock regulator can also be used. Simple take the regulator off and the 1/8 fitting, noticing that there is a slot a flat screwdriver can fit it. This regulator works opposite of most regulators, i.e. you screw it in to decrease pressure, be careful when adjusting as it is very sensitive. Also, why are heavier hammers the rage? Simply put to open the valve X amount of time (Dwell) you need Y amount of energy. This energy comes from your Mainspring and Hammer, it is easier to move a heavier weight than to compress a spring. With a heavier hammer you can use a lighter spring. Of course there is some debate has to whether this is worth it, since there is some thought that a heavier spring/lighter hammer is more consistent.

    Firing Pressure is mainly a determination of Pressure and Dwell (How long the valve is open) and the secret of high efficiency...Flow. Pressure comes from your inline regulator, dwell from your valve spring, hammer weight, and hammer spring. Flow is the ability for air to move.

    Pressure is pretty self-explanatory.

    Dwell, dwell is how long the valve is open letting air through the valve and moving the ball. The easiest way to achieve low pressure is an extremely heavy mainspring and a light valve, of course this results in TERRIBLE Efficiency. Refer to the picture attached.

    Imagine the Dwell as a Curve, a simple hill type of curve. The red box is usable pressure, i.e. the beginning and end of the curve do not have sufficient pressure/flow to achieve any sort of movement of the ball, only at the top half does the curve gain maximum potential to move the ball, in essence the ends are wasted. With a Light Valve Spring and Heavy Hammer Spring you are stretching the time outwards, taking it longer to reach maximum potential and your wasted energy sky rockets.

    Now how does AKA do it?! It’s all about FLOW. Where is the largest bottleneck in most cockers, for airflow? the Valve, no matter how many low pressure chambers and drilling out all air must pass through the valve, many people do a simple porting of a stock valve that can lead to VERY GOOD results, *mumbles about what happened to making stock work, since it usually works better* Palmer for instance, my palmer cocker is VERY efficient, shoots at about 300 and gets loads of shots. Back to flow, Large valve openings with no restrictions, creates more flow, allowing you to run lower pressure. Also as a side note, large more hollow bolts do not necessarily run low pressure since the valve can only move so much air so in essence your bolt should not have larger holes than the valve.

    Ok, so how does AKA do it? Low Pressure and Eff?

    First they have Flow! Second they have a large volume of air, a reservoir of air in the front air chamber, as evidenced by the ungodly large chamber in Merlins. Third they have heavy springs. What you say? Heavy springs, yes they scrunch up the time on that curve below, but they have EXTREME flow. In essence they move more air in a shorter time, thus getting to the maximum potential much quicker.

    Now the all-important question of what do I need to upgrade?!

    The Budget Player, looking at $600 for all he needs on the marker.
    1. My local field sells vert feed 2k2s with PMI Drops for around $400
    2. Add in a $150 Nitro Tank
    3. Add in a $50 Lapco Barrel
    4. Add in a $10 dollar spring kit
    This setup allows the player to play competevly, with a good barrel, air system and most importantly a spring kit.

    Making the Stock Cocker to the next level.
    · Borrow someone’s valve tool and get someone who knows how to time a cocker to help you.
    · Take off the front pneumatic regulator, take off the 1/8” fitting that goes into the front block, take a medium flat screwdriver and turn inward a turn. Reassembly regulator, attach to front block and air it up, pull back on backblock and see how easy it is or how hard, cycle it a few times, does it cycles quickly and pull the hammer back far enough to catch the sear? If not degas marker, pull the trigger a few times to release any pressure, undo 1/8” fitting and turn it counterclockwise to increase pressure if it is not cycling smooth and fast and/or not catching the hammer on the sear, or screw it inward to reduce the cocking pressure until you are comfortable with it. I have one of my friend’s stock cocker whom I have gotten to the point of my Merlin, i.e. I can safely pull the trigger and have my finger in the breech and no pain. You want to get it to the point where you can pull the backblock back with some resistance, be able to stick your finger in the breech and not have it cut off, although try it with a pen or something first to make sure it won’t hurt you. You want it to also cycle smooth and fast catching the hammer/sear reliably every time. It may take you a while but once you get there, you shouldn’t have to redo it for a long time.
    · Now, see the inline regulator, degass/depressurize the marker, take off the inline regulator and screw it out a turn, reassemble and put it back on (On a sidenote if you have to take the fitting off, attach the fitting before assembling the bottom half to top half of reg.) Fire a paintball, is it higher than you were shooting earlier? If it is repeat the process again. And get it to the point to where when you turn the velocity up higher you get lower FPS, when you reach the lower FPS then turn the regulator counterclockwise and fire another paintball. If your velocity is over field limit, which it probably will be, take out your velocity adjuster and open your spring kit, pop a lighter spring into the marker than the one you have and test again, repeat as necessary until you are within the field limit with adjustability, i.e. the adjuster should not be in all the way or out all the way.
    · Now leave your marker alone if you want and are not comfortable with retiming and dremeling…It is fine, it won’t chop as many balls and it will be more efficient. Only continue if you are comfortable with your marker and have someone on hand to assist.
    · Ready? Good? Dissemble the marker entirely, take on the valve, this is the heart of your marker. See the cupseal? The white plastic looking thing on the head of the pin, your want to take a drill bit just slightly small that what it seals on the valve and drill into the valve to open it up. Now take the same drill bit and drill out the hole where the bolt and valve meet. Put in a heavy valve spring from your spring kit, and reassemble, now guess what you get to do! You get to re-sweetspot your regulator. After you are done with that you should notice an immediate increase in efficiency.

    Part 2 tomorrow
    Any comments, suggestions or just things I said wrong don't hesitate to drop me a PM.

    PS: Originally I had some incorrect info on Shockers, Static corrected me, Thanks and here is what he said.

    Just a little bit on Shockers. They run at about 180 PSI and less than that to the bolt because of the way the poppet works. Some of the more tweaked shockers run on about 140-150 psi input with a more efficient bolt.
    Anyway, the solenoids on the Shocker are only rated to 200 (with a 10% safety margin) so they will blow at about 220 psi. -Static

    -----------------------------

    Anymore help...mattdurham@ppog.org or air-powered.com, I happen to be a mod although my main marker is a MicroRt...strange eh?

    Az

  13. #13
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    That came from air-powered by the way, you can find just about anything you want to know about cockers there.

    Delrin bolts, heavier hammers with lighter springs and high output valves will help you run at lower pressures. Technically, I guess a valve would let you run lower cocking pressures, because the less force you need to open the valve means the lighter the spring you can have, which means the less pressure you need to recock it. Anyway, good luck with your gun. Cockers are really fun once you learn about them.

  14. #14
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    thanks guys

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