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Thread: Any of you guys want to fight? Lets have a brawl. Its the endless debate.....

  1. #1
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    Any of you guys want to fight? Lets have a brawl. Its the endless debate.....

    Ok guys. I was on a thread on the traders forum that turned into a big argument about cocker/shocker/matrix accuracy compared to Angel/mag/ accuracy (and range). Let fight the enless fight. Lets see what you guys think.

    I personally do NOT believe all markers shooting the same velocity with matching paint to barrel match shoot the same. Dont get me wrong...I love my emag and its personally my favorite marker. I just dont believe its as accurate or shoots as long as my sfl cocker. Now I know the masses disagree with me.

    You know the what I believe. I know Tom is the ultimate brain and in all his infinate wisdom he has a theory about this. Also, if im not mistaken....in a recent apg magazine he stated that LOW PRESSURE does not exist. Hmmmmm......If thats true like he says.....all markers have an instant velocity of 50000 fps. If im mistaken please let me know. Anyways....How come the shockers, tricked cockers, and matrix as well as a few others have so much better range and accuracy. Now I know many of you if not all of you will agree with Tom. But Ive owned most of the upper end markers out there and I have seen a difference.

    Did anybody put into account about bolt pressure/speed? The emag bolt is supper fast and I believe it couses ball destortion. And if LOW PRESSURE does not exist....why have a dwell? What im saying is, if the low pressure theory doesnt exist, a dwell would be unneeded. The dwell is designed to allow more air (volume) into the ball breach to move the ball. With lower pressure you need more air volume. Lower pressure equals more gas usage. Now since Ive installed the level 10 bolt i have noticed a bit more gas usage. I have not really had a good day of play with it so it may now be just as accurate. If you guys have noticed any difference let me know.

    Like I stated earlier the bolt speed is super fast on the emag. Doesnt the emag bolt move at about 20 fps? The cockers move at 6 fps right? Would this make a differance. Now dont get me wrong. Im not saying Worr Games have a better product. They make fine markers but I like my mags better. The exchange is volume over extreme accuracy. Lots of people say cocker accuracy is false. Im hear to disagree. As for the shocker.....extreme accuracy. So also with the matrix and Nasty impulse (i say nasty because its the best impulse i have ever owned).

    Anyways.....LETS FIGHT!!!

    I want to see what you guys think. Its all for fun. Im not really looking to start a WWF event here or nothing but a lil'bit of violence and nashing of teeth never hurt anybody...LOL. Really guys, lets see what you think. I will probably never change any theories you guys have and I will probably not change my mind but who cares. Lets have fun. This argument has been going on ever since the beginning.

    Oh....and Tom is the man. I personally think he has the best run company out today. With people like Jon Comprado and the rest of the crew you just cant ask for more. Not only does AGD develope some of the best markers out there but the service after the sale is the best. You guys rock. And dont get me wrong with this thread......its just what I think and I want to start a fight.....LOL. You guys be cool.
    Your Friend.....robspectre (Robby Laypath)
    GOOD TRADERS:SHERMINATOR,Warpfeedmod,ZBODY,MOSSMAN,dogE medic,alee@usma,LimpBizkit51389(not sure of his AO name but great trader. This is his AIM name), AND SHOCKER1050 ....YOU GUYS ARE GREAT...HOPE TO DO MORE DEALS IN THE FUTURE. YOUR GREAT TRADERS

  2. #2
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    You will believe what you will believe despite what anyone else says or the evidence they show!! I'm not going to fight you, there's no money in it!!!
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  3. #3
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    i like fighting and everything.... but to me its already over, and has nothing to do with tom, its about physics.

    Saying that a cocker shooting 300 fps will shoot farther than a mag shooting 300 fps is like saying that a pound of bricks is heavier than a pound of feathers.

    fps

    feet
    per
    second

    say "feet per second" 10 times.

    this means that the paintball will fly 300 feet for every second that it is in the air. Unless your marker is using some form of spin to keep it up, the time that it is in the air is proportional not to the marker that it came from, not to the elves in the gun, and not to tom kaye.... but to gravity. So unless gravity has less effect on paintballs that come from cockers, itll go the same distance, and the range will be equal.

    and since you asked for a fight and not a conversation... im gonna take a guess and say that you've never been in a physics classroom before, nor has anyone that says that gun X shoots farther than gun Y @ the same fps.

    If at first you don't succeed, skydiving is not for you.

  4. #4

    let's do it then..

    I am going to get together w/ some of my friend who shoot mags.We will chrono at 280fps,use the same freak insert,and same bag of diablo hellfire. I will set the markers on a rest at a 15 degree angle and average out 100 shots w/ both markers. We will measure distance and in another test accuracy. It wont be indoors unfortunatley, but aleast both markers will suffer accordingly. We will pit a 2k2 cocker shooting at 250psi. against a newer minimag. My mag friends are bigger than me so we will have no bias toward my cocker. Hellfire is a good quality paint ,which is small and very heavy, as far as paintballs go. It is very round and the balls have no noticable seams. I will be using a freak as that is the only barrel we have in common 14" all american tip. We will both use a pmi 88ci 4500 tank, w/ 850 output pressure. Waiting 5 seconds between shots, so my cocker can "recharge". My money is on my cocker...any bets?
    Powered By Jeep....35's and a bad attitude don't mix.

  5. #5
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    HEY!! WAIT a minute!! I am the all knowing TOM KAYE and I DO control gravity!! I made it the same for everyone so there would be no complaining.

    Send your donations to,

    AGD

  6. #6
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    Har Har.

  7. #7
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    ROFLMAO@tom..ahahahahahaha thats great....
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    Image too large- Tato

  8. #8
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    "one's own mind is ALWAYS stronger than the will of another."

    If someone tells u something, an du belive it, and TRUELY belive, nothing anyone can say or do will change ur mind. And furthermore u urself will think u see a diffrance.

    U said u were shooting farther than other high end guns... was the wind behind u? mayb they weren't arching their guns up high enough? mayb they don't have any idea how to play paintball and their mommy bought them the gun and they don't kno what the hell to do with it? mayb their guns are really incosistant and they set their FPS to 250.

    U statement doesn't show much fact. OUR'S is proven by commen sence AND logic AND physics.

    also alightly off topic a bullet fired from a gun, will hit the ground the same time as a bullet droped from the same height. what that means is if u fire a gun and drop a bullet at the same time and same heigt, (given now the gun was at a stright angle) they hit the ground at the same time. try it with paintball. find a long feild, shoot a paintall flat, and drop a paintball. gravity is pulling them at the same time. it will b of the amount of time the ball takes to leave the barrel, b/c gravity isn't pulling it down in the barrel.

    If the above is tru, than it doesn't matter what gun it came out of, it's going to drop at the same speed 3.4 m/s if i recall from skol (correct me if i'm wrong) so if every paintball drops at the same speed, and they leave the barrel at the same speed what other thing can effect it? the magic elves in closed bolt guns? gotta b, no other explnatino for it
    unless of course i'm totally wrong than forget everything i said

  9. #9

    no magic elves...no "seeing" what I want to see

    The shots will be measured. Not "man that went really far". This isn't going to be totally scientific, as I could care less which marker shoots farter,yet to have fun with. I am not spending 40 billion dollars to figure out the square root of infinity divided by 3.14.(I don't care if there is an answer to that either). I am just trying to have some fun w/ half a case of hellfire. A question though...in relation to spin on balls shot out of different markers. When getting shot at..balls whizzing overhead...why do cocker and shocker shot balls sound different. Maybe it's just me, maybe not. I play rec all the time w/ the same guys and I can tell who is shooting at me by the "sound" of the balls. In my opinion they have a whizz sound to them. Maybe you should have a sound test of different markers using the same balls at the same fps. I don't have the resources for that though. As for the magical elves...what's up with that? As for the sound of the balls, I am not a ninja, Jedi,or daredevil. I have no enhanced senses, not an alien,or a mutant. They just sound different to me. Here we go......flame on.

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  11. #11
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    The "all knowing Tom kaye" huh? Well what am I thinking now Tom?

    We have done this subject over and over rob and I guess and its a good one. But not sure I even care to "fight" over it. All I would have to do was wait on you and then do a search for some gem to counteract you and post that up.


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  12. #12
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    Hi I'm physics, obviously we haven't met.

  13. #13
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    Couldnt the different style of guns operation have a different effect on a paintball? such as a spin (even a slight one) or something on the liquid on the inside of the paintball that could effect it AFTER it leaves the barrel at 300 fps?
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  14. #14
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    Go to your local junior college and take a physics course. Seriously. I did. Then see if you think it's still possible.


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  15. #15

    been done to death

    http://www.pbstar.com/misc-tech/range-debate/

    seems someone else did that experiment also... angel bushy and shocker...

    -Booyah
    -------------
    Level 10 68 Automag classic with j&j 10" edge kit, macroline, inteliframe, polished warp left body, dye raptor cradle, and 68 4500 Air America Raptor Rex with slide check quick disconnect warp and Richochet AK

  16. #16
    Wc Keep Guest
    honestly i dont find this to be a topic worth argueing. (sp) if can hit the guy in the back stand up bunker then its accurate enough for me.

  17. #17
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    Didnt Al Gore have a role in this also?

    Aaron

    Originally posted by AGD
    HEY!! WAIT a minute!! I am the all knowing TOM KAYE and I DO control gravity!! I made it the same for everyone so there would be no complaining.

    Send your donations to,

    AGD
    Team Managed Aggression, Missouri Paintball

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  18. #18
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    Originally posted by lopxtc
    Didnt Al Gore have a role in this also?

    Aaron

    Nonono. He invented the internet. NOT the simple laws of Physics
    I'm way too old for this ****.

  19. #19
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    check out Warpig's version of your test:
    http://www.warpig.com/paintball/tech...osedopen.shtml

    take a looksee

  20. #20
    basic physics also neglects friction, so friction must not exist. Just so you know, it is pretty much impossible to model a real world system. That means you cannot predict what will happen exactly. You can have an idea, and get close, but it will never be perfect.

    If you say 2 balls going 300 fps out of 2 different guns go the exact same distance, then I will bet you 1 million dollars that my neighbors M98 with flatline will go farther than your mag at 300 fps and not angled up.

    This is an exaggeration in the difference between all the different guns, but it shows that all guns don't have the same accuracy and range. They are close, but not exact. Even a single gun cannot lauch a ball the exact same every time, so if one gun cannot do it, then you can't expect another to shoot the same as it.

    Even Doc Nickel came on here and said that all guns don't shoot the same, but there isn't a huge difference.

    And of course AGD will say that all guns shoot the same, they make the guns that have been claimed to not shoot as far.

    But I could really couldn't care less about all this.
    I like potatoes

  21. #21
    friction doesnt come into play in these calculations... dont get me wrong, friction factors into equations, but in this case the friction should act no different on either ball. both being the same size, mass, and traveling at the same velocity friction will act on both the same.

    the flatline model 98 and mag example is a poor one at best. the entire point of the flatline is to add an intentional consistant spin to the ball. its called the magnus effect a back spining ball will create lift and travel a flater trajectory.

    Thats accepted fact. the entire conversionation though is negating spin, since unless the spin is very consistant it will negativly affect accuracy. thats why the flatline with poor paint sucks, the spin isnt consistant.

    now, if you were to somehow put a flatline on a mag (man that would be ugly) and shoot the same paint out of it and a model 98 flatline, at the same angle, same velocity then they WILL TRAVEL THE SAME DISTANCE. it has nothing to do with the gun, your statement is all about the barrel.

    and i'll take you up on that bet, i'm sure there is someway to mount my flatline on my mag and for 1million dollars i'll do it.

    -Booyah

  22. #22
    of course the cocker shoots farther, after all it has the "super physics defying elves"

    but seriously, if we do ignore physics, we find that the cocker is really more accurate

  23. #23
    hehe, right up there with my favorite quote from paintballers


    "Yeah well physics is all on paper and this is the real world!"

    and if physics didnt work in the real world how on earth do we get cell phones, space stations, and that thar contraption yer typin on now!

    i mean if by some magic an autococker can shoot a ball 20% farther and 10% more accurate, wouldnt nasa contract WGP to tell them how and reduce the launch cost of satelites?

    -Booyah

    now, before i get flamed, do me a favor, solve this physics issue for me I'll make it easy

    Little jimmy is on his sled on a frictionless ice hill, the hill is 20 meters tall, and little jimmy pushes off.

    at the bottom of the hill is a brick wall. now, assuming little jimmy and sled weigh 40 Kg and decelerates his full velocity over 4 inches of crushed sled, how many g forces does little jimmy take? better yet, say little jimmy can survice 50G over a short period (pretty realistic) does he live?

    show your work :-P

  24. #24
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    Couldnt the different style of guns operation have a different effect on a paintball? such as a spin (even a slight one) or something on the liquid on the inside of the paintball that could effect it AFTER it leaves the barrel at 300 fps?

  25. #25
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    Yes, and that is the only thing the gun can affect. The gun controls velocity, and spin (it doesn't really control it, but the spin on the ball, if any, should be consistent in one gun.)

    Besides spin and velocity, i don't think there is anything the gun can change.

    Spin is made in the barrel anyhow.

    :o why am i even doing this... i don't care either way.

    I can't see any difference between accuracey in different guns. So it doesn't really bother me.


    My truck is louder than yours. A lot louder.

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  26. #26
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    law of physics, neglecting air resistance and spin. 2 objects launched at the same angle going the same speed will go the same range...gravity affects them both the same. if you take a gun and point it paralel to a level field and fire it, and at the same time drop a bullet from the same height, they will both hit at the same time, just the fired bullet is down range.... so even with ballistics, the way to extend range, is to add speed.

    now when you introduce a backspin device ( such as the Automag Z body or M98 flatline barrel) then the ball, if consistantly spinning, will go farher than the bal fired from a regular marker.
    Last edited by HoppysMag; 12-03-2002 at 05:25 PM.
    "You have not converted a man because you have silenced him." -John Morley

  27. #27
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    READ THIS......

    O.K. (takes deep breath) I'm sure why I'm gonna say this because I don't think I believe it could, but.....

    You go over to the crono,(with your mag)hold your gun down over the crono and fire x amount of times.....280fps.

    Now Joey Cocker fan does the same......280fps.

    Now, your out playing and take a shot,marker either shouldered or held out. My rockin' Mag fires,it's high speed bolt uncorks.The bolt rockets forword,paintball in hand and launches the projectile off at 280fps,HOWEVER....the speed of such a launch of "BOLT AND BALL" causes an equal but opposite reaction (physics baby)forcing the gun rearward,if ever so slightly,thereby slowing the PBall just enough to be noticable at somewhere around 100 feet away as the slight loss is magnified by the time and distance.The ball drops 1 foot short of Joeys Goggles and erupts on his bunker.

    Joey in retaliation of his near elimination,returns fire.This time however,his "bolt" is just hanging on as it blows its wad...of gas that is (sorry) and fails to contribute to the mass causing the rearward reaction.The differance as so subtle as to only be detectable....you guessed it......100 feet away there by .....splat!!Gogged again by that damn cocker guy!

    To confound matters worse,the post closing bolt and back block slam into the gun frame,loading the next Pball and actually causes a slight forward motion to the gun as the next shot is fired as to give it that much more perseptable range.(what ever that might be)

    "Believe it......OR NOT"

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  28. #28
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    Someone at angel-owners already solved the whole range debate. He said that it is a well kept secret that paintballs have eyes. Once they leave the barrel they look back at the gun that fired them and if they see a cocker they know that they must travel 50ft. farther than if they saw an angel or a mag. Now we have one less thing to fight about.
    Blue fade FLY iR3
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  29. #29
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    Re: READ THIS......

    Originally posted by RRfireblade
    O.K. (takes deep breath) I'm sure why I'm gonna say this because I don't think I believe it could, but.....

    You go over to the crono,(with your mag)hold your gun down over the crono and fire x amount of times.....280fps.

    Now Joey Cocker fan does the same......280fps.

    Now, your out playing and take a shot,marker either shouldered or held out. My rockin' Mag fires,it's high speed bolt uncorks.The bolt rockets forword,paintball in hand and launches the projectile off at 280fps,HOWEVER....the speed of such a launch of "BOLT AND BALL" causes an equal but opposite reaction (physics baby)forcing the gun rearward,if ever so slightly,thereby slowing the PBall just enough to be noticable at somewhere around 100 feet away as the slight loss is magnified by the time and distance.The ball drops 1 foot short of Joeys Goggles and erupts on his bunker.

    Joey in retaliation of his near elimination,returns fire.This time however,his "bolt" is just hanging on as it blows its wad...of gas that is (sorry) and fails to contribute to the mass causing the rearward reaction.The differance as so subtle as to only be detectable....you guessed it......100 feet away there by .....splat!!Gogged again by that damn cocker guy!

    To confound matters worse,the post closing bolt and back block slam into the gun frame,loading the next Pball and actually causes a slight forward motion to the gun as the next shot is fired as to give it that much more perseptable range.(what ever that might be)

    "Believe it......OR NOT"

    Jay.
    not.

  30. #30
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    ok in paintball , same as regular guns, most if not all of the kick is from the gasses escaping the muzzle, hence the need for compensators on FA rifles... if the gass has left the gun and pushed the barrel up, then the ball has already left too. and if your version had any truth then the mag would be forced down from the momentem of the bolt going forward under what ever PSI its stoping... not up from the pressure of the weak little spring...

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