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Thread: Any of you guys want to fight? Lets have a brawl. Its the endless debate.....

  1. #31
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    couldnt different bolts apply the air differently and then effect the paintballs slightly differntly? Im not going for a hueg distance change
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  2. #32
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    I think there's at tad differance between-

    A rifle shooting a bullet @4,000 FPS and 40,000 psi chamber pressure.

    A paintball gun 280fps and I don't know....300psi chamber pressure (guess)

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  3. #33
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    i see where you are with it but i just dont think that it makes any diffrance at paintball... cause also dont forget you chronoing( SP?) out of the barrel is including that supposed "Kick" so even if it was true that it drops a small amout while in the barrel doesnt affect the fact that yyou chroney out at the end of the barrel, you see what i mean....

  4. #34
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    I know. I didn't say I thought it was true,I just thought it was maybe the only logical reason I could muster.(this was supposed to be for fun.)As for the crono, the place we play at has the "red" one and you kinda rest your barrel on the rubber upper part that would "maybe" nullify the "kick" found later in the field.

    Jay.

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  5. #35
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    i actualy chrono holding my gun because of how my tank is... , but whatever...

  6. #36
    arent most rifles closed bolt because they are bolt action, or does he mean an auto rifle?

  7. #37
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    Originally posted by petefol
    arent most rifles closed bolt because they are bolt action, or does he mean an auto rifle?
    who me? i said "FA rifles" which is full auto, and it depends on what you consider a rifle... an uzi is open bolt but not really a rifle

  8. #38
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    Can you guys believe Tom actually replied to this post? Thanks Tom...

    Actually Im going to test this this weekend if possible. Im either going to say its an optical illusion or Im actually right. We'll see. It will be fun.

    Oh...and the remark earlier about the wizzzzz some markers have.......Ive noticed that. Wonder what causes that?

    Oh...and Tom....dont get me wrong. My favorite marker is my Emag. I just have to test this theory myself. I have owned so many cockers in the past and they seem to shoot farther and more accurate. Im going to test this. Now personally I love cockers and I believe them to be excellent markers, although if I had to use my mag or a cocker I would choose my mag.

    Anyways....great fight. Im actually suprised so many of you actually came here and agreed/disagreed with me.

    Oh...and Tom....dont take this badly. Im not even trying to rag on a mag. I actually choose to use them. I cant count how many mags I have owned. I have registered all of my mags so you can see just how much I love em.

    You guys are great here at AO and Ive had lots of fun. But seriously, Isnt conflict kind of fun?
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  9. #39
    obviously you guys can't think at all. I said the flatline is an exaggeration. Have you never shot 2 tone paint at a lower velocity. Paintballs spun out of my Bruizer Pro, but you want to neglect spin.
    I like potatoes

  10. #40
    280fps,HOWEVER....the speed of such a launch of "BOLT AND BALL" causes an equal but opposite reaction (physics baby)forcing the gun rearward,if ever so slightly,thereby slowing the PBall just enough to be noticable at somewhere around 100 feet away
    the ball will not have slowed down if it is still leaving the barrell at 280

  11. #41
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    I'm sure cockers by sheer chance just so happen to put some kind of positive spin on the ball and that makes them shoot noticably farther than any other gun...give me a break.

  12. #42
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    actually, the idea of a closed bolt being better is there is NO spin. they claim that with the ball already in the barrel and stoped when the air hits it, there is no spin on the ball and therefore its more accurate.

    just look at the tests. there is no more range for the shocker which is regarded as the ultimate "long ranger" by most players. angels and bushys shoot just as far...its all hype!

  13. #43
    I never said one specific gun shot farther or more accurate than other. I just said there's no way at 2 guns can shoot exactly the same.

  14. #44
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    Originally posted by MinimagRockin'
    I'm sure cockers by sheer chance just so happen to put some kind of positive spin on the ball and that makes them shoot noticably farther than any other gun...give me a break.
    lol im pretty sure EDIT: Positive spin would actualy throw the ball into the ground... back spin would give it range.

    I never said one specific gun shot farther or more accurate than other. I just said there's no way at 2 guns can shoot exactly the same
    are you saying you dissagree with the laws of physics or you just dont think that in actual real world game play 2 guns will go exactly the same distance? if its the game play one, you could be right, things like air resistance, consistance of velocity, height from fireing point, obviously angle, and irregularitys in the ball will toy with the results... but neglecting air resistance, irregularitys, and firing 2 projectiles from same hight at same speed and same angle will result in the same range.
    Last edited by HoppysMag; 12-06-2002 at 09:02 PM.

  15. #45
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    Question

    Okay, I'll bite. What can a marker actually do that will affect the paintball once it leaves the barrel to give it more range at the same fps?

  16. #46
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    Hoppy, i think Kev meant real world. you cant possibly control ALL things on the field. you have velocity spikes, small differences in paint, irregular seating, whatever. I deally, you would have to control everything; temp, ball consistency, air consitency, whatever. I really dont think that field testing is gonna prove or disprove anything new. And, like everyone else stated; 280 fps is 280 fps. whether it is a paintball or a cannonball. They travel the same speed initially.
    And, comparing bullet ballistics to paint ballistics doesnt really work. Rifles (not open bolt sub machine guns) are designed for the bolt to NOT open till the bullet has left the barrel. Hence the gas tube at the end of the barrels. This doesnt apply to open bolt firearms; they are not very accurate. Hence, most open bolt firearms are small (for control), have rudimentary sights (general aim, no gradations,) and are full auto (classic spray and pray). You can also control the amount of powder, size of bullet, and other things for a more consistent test. Anyway, seeing as I know nothing about physics (hell, I try to break the gravity law all the time ), I will bow out of this. This debate has been done, and is always interesting to follow, but I really have nothing else to contribute.
    X-mag #10. Nuff said.

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  17. #47
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    thats what i thought he ment and i was agreeing with him. and the comparison of real guns is an exagerated example of mooving parts, VS escape ing gasses.

  18. #48
    If 2 balls come out of 2 guns the exact same, they will go to the same spot at any distance. I just don't believe it is possible for any guns to do this.

    And this is just a theory, I doubt anyone could ever prove this, but I don't think anyone could prove it wrong either.

  19. #49
    i can see how people think cockers shoot further. I myself have seen guns shoot farther than the others, both chronoed at the same speed (hell i chronoed the damn things myself and locked their velocity) HOWEVER, they were both rental rebels. one had a freak on it, and had the bore matched perfectly. the other had a stock barrel. the freak shot further, flatter, and a hell of a lot more accurate. considering that most of the people who compare the distances often compare them to lower end guns, where odds are people have worse barrels, its not surprise that one gun shoots further than the other. the simple answer is IT DOES. the thing is, its the barrel, not the gun.

    btw, since paintballs have a liquid core any minor spin created by a bolt would be negated as the liquid would stop spinning incredibly fast. try spinning a boiled egg, and a raw egg. also, closed bolt guns and open bolt guns BOTH go through the SAME firing cycle at high speeds of fire.

  20. #50
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    Just for the record ALL guns "fire" from a closed bolt position regardless of the position of the action at rest.Open bolt F/A rifles in some cases of high cyclic rates fire just prior to being "fully" closed but are still basically considered closed at the time of firing the cartradge.

    Jay.

  21. #51
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    Originally posted by halB
    btw, since paintballs have a liquid core any minor spin created by a bolt would be negated as the liquid would stop spinning incredibly fast.
    No they do not. Look at the data (pictures) Tom posted in Deep Blue. Also, I can spin a paintball on a table. What do eggs have to do with paintballs?

  22. #52
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    when you spin an egg you spin the shell but the insides stay staionary and cause all kinds of ballence problem and cause certian forces to mess everything up, same reason rifling in paintball doesnt work.

  23. #53
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    Originally posted by HoppysMag
    when you spin an egg you spin the shell but the insides stay staionary and cause all kinds of ballence problem and cause certian forces to mess everything up, same reason rifling in paintball doesnt work.
    The inside of an egg has little in common with the inside of a paintball. First of all, there is nothing like a yolk inside of a paintball.

    BTW, you CAN spin a paintball on a table. You can also spin an egg if you do it correctly. Lay it "flat" and try it.

  24. #54
    ummm so the liquid in the egg isnt similar to the liquid in the paintball?? you know, theyre only BOTH liquids. yes, you can spin a paintball, the smae with a raw egg. the thing is, a cooked egg spins a lot longer, because the liquid core stops and negates spinning extremely quickly. the same with a paintball. the liquid core prevents the spinning from happening for too long. also, since the thing goes down the barrel and touches it, unless ur using a lapco z barrel, the barrel will stop all spinning, and often put its own spin on it.

  25. #55
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    Originally posted by hitech


    The inside of an egg has little in common with the inside of a paintball. First of all, there is nothing like a yolk inside of a paintball.

    BTW, you CAN spin a paintball on a table. You can also spin an egg if you do it correctly. Lay it "flat" and try it.
    lol where did i say you couldnt spin a paintball? and laying it (EDIT: the egg) down flat does not count cause now all you are doing is lowering its center of gravity... so it has no reason to fall. and for our means, a liquid, is a liquid, is a liquid.
    Last edited by HoppysMag; 12-05-2002 at 06:13 PM.

  26. #56
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    Originally posted by hitech


    No they do not. Look at the data (pictures) Tom posted in Deep Blue. Also, I can spin a paintball on a table. What do eggs have to do with paintballs?
    point out the EXACT info that your talking about...cause i cant find it.

    EDIT: heres my info... http://www.automags.org/resource/tec...spinning.shtml not to mention personal observations and my own fun and games experiments w/ eggs lottsa cleaning....
    Last edited by HoppysMag; 12-05-2002 at 07:04 PM.

  27. #57
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    alot of you mistake trajectory and accuracy. Cockers have a greater TRAJECTORY then mags, so the ball stays in the air longer. Different bolts do make a difference. Different breeches make a difference too.
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  28. #58
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    Originally posted by RT pRo AuToMaG
    alot of you mistake trajectory and accuracy. Cockers have a greater TRAJECTORY then mags, so the ball stays in the air longer. Different bolts do make a difference. Different breeches make a difference too.
    right... cockers can defy gravity, i see it all makes sence now... cockers are the one thing gravity doesnt effect... everything else is pulled down at 9.8M/s/s but of course not a paintball fired from a cocker... the only way to get it to stay in the air longer are, backspin, wings, engine, angle of launch and the height at wich it is launched ( ie holding it above your head as opposed to skimming the ground).


    EDIT: you know what im done w/ this thread, its really starting to get to me that many people buy into hype and dont understand or want to understand the laws of physics!, last post, any problems PM me
    Last edited by HoppysMag; 12-05-2002 at 09:54 PM.

  29. #59

    test results...

    It is far too cold and windy and snowy to do my little test between a cocker and a minimag. I'll wait till better weather comes along, like spring. Always question what society and science has laid down before us though. They have both been known to be wrong at times. Don't take anything for granted or hold anything sacred. Never stop thinking about or questioning the things we "know" to be true. If that were the case most of us would still be living in Europe. The whole flat earth thing, comes to mind. The science of the times said the Earth had to be flat and that the Earth was the center of the Universe. We can all laugh at this now, but similar mistakes are being made today,although none so obvious. As for math, take this in stride. 3 guys walk into a hotel, they need a room, the clerk say's 30.00 for all three of you. They each give 10.00 and go to their room. The night cleck comes on duty and sees that the other clerk has made a mistake, overcharging them by 5.00. He calls the bellhop and give him 5.00 to return to the 3 guest. On his way upstairs he thinks to himself "how can I split 5.00 between 3 people, I dont have any change on me". So he decides to give them each 1.00 back and keep the other 2.00 for himself. So they each paid 9.00 for the room, right? 9 times 3 equals 27, right? Plus the 2 dollars that the bellhop took for himself, and you have 29.00, right? What happened to the other dollar? Just to prove it's all in the way you look at things.
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  30. #60
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    Originally posted by HoppysMag
    point out the EXACT info that your talking about...
    Look in this picture. Does the paintball slow down?

    <img src="http://www.automags.org/~TomAGD/spindata/101b.jpg">

    If that isn't detailed enough you can find a hires picture here (File name is 101.TIF):

    http://www.automags.org/~TomAGD/spindata/

    BTW, if the egg spins, it spins. Also, the inside of an egg is QUITE different than a paintball. The only thing they have in common is that both contain liquid. However, and egg contains MUCH more than a simple liquid.

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