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Thread: Any of you guys want to fight? Lets have a brawl. Its the endless debate.....

  1. #61
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    Originally posted by FalconGuy016
    couldnt different bolts apply the air differently and then effect the paintballs slightly differntly? Im not going for a hueg distance change
    not really, the WERM undertoe bolt for impulses claimed to do that. well its not exactly selling right now. it does nothing. now onto my opinion on things. guns all have the same basic trajectory. maybe TINY but unnoticeable spin on a ball now and then from something other than the way the marker shoots. but like i said its unnoticeable. cockers do not shoot more accurately than an angel. i have shotten cockers that were as bad as a blowback and some that shoot as straight as a dart. its all on how it was set up with paint and barrel at that particular time. warpig did the proving test using the SAME GUN by converting it from open bolt to closed bolt. no difference and it turned out that the open bolt happened to have a better shot grouping too. that doesnt mean its more accurate than closed bolt. i mean cmon an open bolt shoots the same way as a closed bolt gun. it shoots when the bolt is in the closed position. so for you closed bolt nuts out there, ITS PROVEN, DONE, FINISHED, PERIOD. as for each individual guns from angel to mag to cocker. like i said before they might have an unnoticeable difference that could be caused by anything besides the actual method of firing. u know what would prove people wrong and i bet its never been done before? a blind shot test. you make a person wear ear plugs and everything and put a blanket over a marker. make sure they cant tell what it is and pull the trigger. ask them to see which one they saw go further. ill bet all my money that they dont say a cocker, just by chance. they would probably end up saying the angel or mag went further. somebody has to do this and show the results. its a simple test too.

  2. #62
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    Originally posted by hitech


    Look in this picture. Does the paintball slow down?

    <img src="http://www.automags.org/~TomAGD/spindata/101b.jpg">

    If that isn't detailed enough you can find a hires picture here (File name is 101.TIF):

    http://www.automags.org/~TomAGD/spindata/

    BTW, if the egg spins, it spins. Also, the inside of an egg is QUITE different than a paintball. The only thing they have in common is that both contain liquid. However, and egg contains MUCH more than a simple liquid.
    ok incase you dont understand what we are saying, wich you dont, the liquid slows the spin, not the ball, and a egg spinning that way is only spinning cause it has no reason to fall... if you try to spin it like a top the liquid slows the spin and the egg falls over... take a glass of water put an ice cube in the middle and turn the glass , notice how the cube stays put... this shows us that the water is also stationary. i really dont think you even care to understand this. the same thing is happening in a paintball... read the last link i posted from "Toms Tech Tips" then you will understand it.

  3. #63
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    Originally posted by HoppysMag
    Ok in case you don't understand what we are saying, which you don't, the liquid slows the spin, not the ball...read the last link I posted from "Toms Tech Tips" then you will understand it.
    First off, "spin" isn't a noun. It CAN'T BE anything. The ball is spinning, get it? BTW, in Tom's tech tips he is talking about a different spin rate. At slow rates of spin, based on Toms' testing, it appears the paintball does not slow down much. Also, you are ASSUMING that the reason you can't spin an egg on end is because the liguid is slowing the shell. I say maybe it's because the yolk is bouncing around inside the egg.

  4. #64
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    Originally posted by hitech


    First off, "spin" isn't a noun. It CAN'T BE anything. The ball is spinning, get it?
    Actually he didn't say it was a noun. Spin or to spin is an action (verb), and if someone says... "It slows the spin", it is not incorrect since you can speed up or slow an action.

    He slowed down the walk.

    Putting on the breaks slows down the rotation.

    See?

    However, I would agree that you can not say the “spin” slowed, but not the object. Since one would directly affect the other.

    But you are correct, the reason an egg does not spin on end is not because they yolk and whites slow it down…. the way an egg yolk and white are made (and react to the shell) causes the egg to become unbalanced. The yolk “wobbles” inside the whites which are a cushion for the yolk and unborn chick. Again, the egg does not fall over because the yolk is slowing it down from the inside, but because the yolk causes the egg to become unbalanced.

    You CAN however, spin the egg on its side because the way the yolk and the whites are, the yolk can more easily settle into a central low point. But do to design, it can not do the same thing standing on end. Heck, even the shape of an egg itself will make it pretty hard to spin on end even if NO yolk was there. Unless weighted, even a plastic egg (with NO filling) will not want to spin on end. The shape makes it want to roll on its side. And there is no liquid inside “slowing it down”. Try it out.

    Equating eggs to paintballs is always a bad idea in my opinion.

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  5. #65
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    Originally posted by shartley

    Actually he didn't say it was a noun.
    Sure he did:
    the liquid slows the spin, not the ball...
    He is saying that it slowed the spin, not the ball (ie not the spin on the ball). It has to slow the spin OF something.

    And yes, compairing eggs to paintballs is worse than apples to oranges. BTW, I have/had no idea why an egg won't spin on end. That was just another possible reason.

  6. #66
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    Originally posted by hitech



    He is saying that it slowed the spin, not the ball (ie not the spin on the ball).
    ya, um you REALLY dont get what im saying, mabey its my poor explaining/ examples... but im saying it slows the BALLS SPIN, not the velocity.

  7. ya ya ya

    2 guns shooting the same velocity will shoot the same distance...

    personally its untrue

    many things effect the shot of the ball, and im totally disregarding all random errors that could occur.

    mostly, the barrel affects distance because of the type of spin it may but on a ball, for example a tippman flatline WILL shoot farther at 300 fps than pretty much any other gun on the market, this is because of the backspin put on the ball. this does increase distance of the shot. A barrel that puts for-spin on a ball and is 3 inches long, shooting at 300 fps will shoot a paintball shorter than a flatline will.. period.

    the velocity of the paintball, lets say 300 fps is MUZZLE VELOCITY, but what about the following flight of the ball?

    and as robspectre said, i also believe that method and operating pressure of a gun also makes a difference.
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  8. #68
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    Originally posted by HoppysMag


    lol im pretty sure back spin would actualy throw the ball into the ground... back spin would give it range.
    what? what did I say about back spin? and how can back spin throw a ball into the ground and give it range? I was responding to some of the earlier posts about how a cocker could possibly put some kind of funky spin to the ball and that's how it would shoot farther.

  9. #69
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    Originally posted by MinimagRockin'


    what? what did I say about back spin? and how can back spin throw a ball into the ground and give it range? I was responding to some of the earlier posts about how a cocker could possibly put some kind of funky spin to the ball and that's how it would shoot farther.
    sorry typo, ment to say front/ positive spin. it place of the first back spin give me a sec to look back and il try to get a better answer 4 u.

    heres, check this out... http://home.attbi.com/~dyrgcmn/pball/trajectory.html if you put in the spin angle as a positive and give it some RPM's you can see the ball slams to the ground prematurly... shoot a ball @ 0 spin and 0 RPM @280fps then try it with full positive spin and full neg, both full RPM... its pretty cool toy.
    Last edited by HoppysMag; 12-06-2002 at 09:09 PM.

  10. #70
    phew, got lots of stuff to correct here

    Originally posted by hitech

    BTW, if the egg spins, it spins. Also, the inside of an egg is QUITE different than a paintball. The only thing they have in common is that both contain liquid. However, and egg contains MUCH more than a simple liquid.
    now where to begin, how bout what makes up an egg?

    do you know what the largest cell is?? the yolk in an ostrich egg. MUCH more than a simple liquid?? if its unfertilized, its one big ole single cell. sounds pretty damn simple to me. how many dead cells from bacteria trapped in the paintball are there??

    second of all, did i ever say you cant spin a raw egg? apperantly ur looking for what u wanna find, but heres the deal.

    if you spin a raw egg and a cooked egg at the same rpms and everything the RAW egg (namatamago for the japanese out there) will slow down WAAAAAAAY before the cooked egg will. and it will stop much much sooner. this is because the liquid inside doesnt spin, and through the miracles of inertia and friction, it stops the outer shell. go do it yourself, boil an egg and spin it next to a raw egg

    now what does this have to do with a paintball? well a paintball is liquid filled, similar to an egg. dont go on about how an egg has a different liquid in there ITS IRRELEVANT, its the mere fact that its a liquid. the liquid fill in a paintball slows down the spin (spin of the paintball mr. special english class). sure u can spin a paintball, even longer than a raw egg, its got less liquid compared to surface area of the paintballs semi solid.

    ok, how does that apply to closed bolt v open bolt.
    well, lets assume the bolt imparts a spin on the ball. lets just assume this. the liquid fill would pretty much stop this slight spin immedietly. and thats without the barrel.

    with any barrel bore thats not ridiculously the-balls-fall-through-the-barrel large the paintball contacts the barrel. the moment that happens, spinning ceases (unless of course, you wanna put some oil down ur gun). at least spinning from the bolt. the split second from the paintball being loaded to it being fired stops the paintballs spinning. now then when it fires, the BARREL imparts its OWN spin on the paintball. completely independent of the bolts spin. this spin as soon as it leaves the barrel is slowed down, but due to the incredible turbulence of the air (sailing through the air at 300 fps aint gentle)the spin has enough of an effect to cause the ball to curve. of course dimples in the paint and seams also create their own drag, which creates its own spin.

    so yes, lets assume that closed bolt is better than open bolt. so what, unless ur using no barrel with perfect paint that is a perfect sphere that can only be formed in space, its not gonna really matter.

  11. #71
    Originally posted by Retardrice

    the velocity of the paintball, lets say 300 fps is MUZZLE VELOCITY, but what about the following flight of the ball?
    now i dont know what ur angle is here, but im assuming that what you are saying is that the bolt continues to affect the ball after it leaves the muzzle.

    unless you have a spyder sport with its plastic bolt that breaks off and flies down your barrel after your paintball gun, the bolt cant affect the ball once its in the barrel, or left the barrel.

  12. #72
    Originally posted by hitech


    First off, "spin" isn't a noun. It CAN'T BE anything. The ball is spinning, get it?

    spin ( P ) Pronunciation Key (spn)
    n.
    1. The act of spinning.
    2. A swift whirling motion.
    3. A state of mental confusion.
    4. Informal. A short drive in a vehicle: took a spin in the new car.
    5. The flight condition of an aircraft in a nose-down, spiraling, stalled descent.

    6. a. A distinctive point of view, emphasis, or interpretation: “Dryden... was adept at putting spin on an apparently neutral recital of facts” (Robert M. Adams).
    b. A distinctive character or style: an innovative chef who puts a new spin on traditional fare.
    7. Physics.
    a. The intrinsic angular momentum of a subatomic particle. Also called spin angular momentum.
    b. The total angular momentum of an atomic nucleus.
    c. A quantum number expressing spin angular momentum.

  13. #73
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    Whatever. My level 10 automag shoots just as flat, far, and straight as any cocker out there with a good paint to barrel match. Go try it for your self.
    Got my eye on a C&C Extreme Emag

  14. no the bolt can affect spin of the ball, and psi put on the ball every shot affects the shape of it. Some bolts greatly mishape balls, some dont really, it depends.

  15. #75
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    Man oh man......did I start a fight or what? I have seen many different oppinions here. Some I agree with and some I dont. Either way this sure is fun. Im taking my PTP microemag out tommorro and test the theory. I will let you guys know. It want be exact science because i have no high end electronic equipment but I will do my best. I am going to post up both markers (wgp orracle and cole cocker vs. Micro emag) usuing the same bore freak and same length. I am going to crono every shot of the markers so I will know They are shooting at the same speed. They will both be the exact same height of the ground (measuring from the barrell to ground) and shooting at random distances. I will be perfectly honest and if Im wrong I will admit it. But if Im right I am sticking to my guns. Painter32 is also going to be there with me to insure no cheating. I have no reason to take up for wgp over agd. I actually prefer my emag over others. I really hope im wrong because I would like to think my emag is just as accurate as any cocker. So...I will post the results after the test. If im wrong, which i dont think i will be, i will let you know. Im going to test range and accuracy. Realize both markers are completely tricked. Both markers will have 14 in. freaks with matching inserts, high end tanks (warped air and maxxie), and both low pressure bolts (cocker bolts vs. level 10). We are going to know the truth tommorro. See ya tommorro.
    GOOD TRADERS:SHERMINATOR,Warpfeedmod,ZBODY,MOSSMAN,dogE medic,alee@usma,LimpBizkit51389(not sure of his AO name but great trader. This is his AIM name), AND SHOCKER1050 ....YOU GUYS ARE GREAT...HOPE TO DO MORE DEALS IN THE FUTURE. YOUR GREAT TRADERS

  16. #76
    Originally posted by Retardrice
    no the bolt can affect spin of the ball, and psi put on the ball every shot affects the shape of it. Some bolts greatly mishape balls, some dont really, it depends.
    the air blasts do not misshape the balls, the air actually forms around the ball, not the ball forming around the air. also, assuming the ball is deformed by the bolt, so what, a baseball is deformed by the bat, which has a **** load of more energy between the two, but the thing snaps back into shape right away. the ball would snap back into its original shape before its even traveled a 1/4 inch down the barrel.

  17. #77
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    When Tom said guns acellerate the balls around 50,000 fps that is true. 50,000 fps is slowed quiet sugnificantly when the ball reaches the end of the barrel. Its explained more in detail in the april issue of Action.
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  18. #78
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    I say maybe it's because the yolk is bouncing around inside the egg.
    Accually the yolk isnt boucing in side the egg. there is a small white proteins and other stuff that is attached to the yolk and the inside of the shell to keep it in place. It works sort of like an ambilicol cord. It helps the baby and makes it so it cant fly away. i am right because u u get a fresh egg and shake it and do whatever u want evcept break the shell and the yolk will never break. The older the egg the less strong that tissue is. I saw that on the food network once. And people said that school makes u smart.

  19. #79
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    Hi,

    Here is my answer to this arguement/question.

    1) Did you hit your intended target with the best of your abilities?

    If yes, the marker you were using did its intented fnuction.

    If No, proceed to the next question.

    2)Did the marker fail(i.e. Mechanical)?

    If yes, find the cause of the problem. Make nessecary repairs. Test. Repeat question #1.

    If No, proceed to the next question.

    3)Did you sight and range on to intended target?

    If yes, check yourself.

    If no, proceed.

    4)Was marker shooting at speed when you took aim?

    If yes, good.

    If no, adjust velocity.

    5) Once the basics are out of the way, did you hit your intended target?

    If yes, you have answered question #1 and the entire debate about markers being better.

    If no, you might want to rethink the idea that you are not the greatest shot in paintball. Take some time at the range and practice.



    Seriously, Yeah an E mag is going to be better than let's say stingray. However, we as players feel let down with the fact we bought "superior" firepower to be only shot out by something like a talon. However, when markers are set up properly, most of those smaller differences are not going to be that noticiable. It comes down to feeling comfortable with the marker you use.

    people are different. markers are different. there is no one in paintball that is going to dictate we can only use a super max hyper electro pnuematic gun. Some are going to be better than others. I would hope the 1700 dollar angel or 1300 maxed out customized cocker is going to perform better than a spyder.

    To conclude, it all boils down to one thing, did you get the ball on to the intented target to the best of your abilities with the marker you feel the most comfortable with?

    Later,
    Alan
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  20. the air blasts do not misshape the balls, the air actually forms around the ball, not the ball forming around the air. also, assuming the ball is deformed by the bolt, so what, a baseball is deformed by the bat, which has a **** load of more energy between the two, but the thing snaps back into shape right away. the ball would snap back into its original shape before its even traveled a 1/4 inch down the barrel.
    untrue

    two piece barrels often use a method called stepdown, where the first half of the barrel should fit the ball perfectly while the second half should not.

    the second half of the barrel gives small room around the ball creating quicker reshape of the paintball, therefore, depending on the barrel, paintballs will reshape quicker or slower.

  21. #81
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    Something I wrote in an old thread:

    If one gun has more range than another in a horizontal direction, then it should also have more range going in the vertical direction... just a matter of which way you point your gun. Correct? Say 'yes'... I know you can do it. (Reason why removing the horizontal is to simplify the physics for ya'll... same principles... less vectors to play with)

    Let's say you shot a ball straight up in the air at 300fps. Can we all agree that this ball is at 300fps? Ok... 300fps now... right? Can you remember 300fps? 300fps... don't forget. 300fps, 300fps, 300fps. Everyone seems to ignore this 300fps thing when talking about range.

    Classical physics denotes that in one-dimensional kinematics (which is the case when you shoot something perpendicular to the ground):

    Distance = Initial Velocity x Time - 1/2 Accel. Gravity * Time^2

    Now, the Maximum height is when the ball is shot up in the air and reaches 0 velocity... the point in which it is about to fall.

    Time to reach maximum height = (Initial Velocity - 0 Velocity)/Accel. Gravity

    Ok... let's plug some numbers in.

    What do you think the Initial Velocity is? 300fps!!! Oh... you're so fast! Accel of gravity is approx 32 ft/sec^2.

    Ok... solve for time first:
    Time = (<B>300</B> - 0) / 32 = 9.375 sec

    Solve for Max Height:

    Distance = 300ft/sec x 9.375s - (1/2)32ft/sec/sec * 9.375^2
    Distance = 1406.25 ft.

    Note... that there is no equation:

    Distance = Initial Velocity x Time - 1/2 Accel. Gravity * Time^2 + PFM

    Where PFM = the "Pure Magic" cocker constant. There's isn't a place in the equation to add or subtract distance in case you were using a cocker, mag, angel, sling shot, or high speed upchuck.

    This equation applies to cannon balls, elephants, cocker spaniels, and bikini models... shot out of open-bolt markers, closed-bolt markers, rifles, cannons, catapults, ballistas... or even lifted up into the air via an explosive device.

    Ok, so you want to be a stickler. "Ooh! Oooh! What about this buzzword 'drag' ? Huh? Huh!?!? That's all theoretical! Ooh! Look at the BIG techy word I just used! Theoretical! That doesn't apply in the REAL world"

    I could calculate drag for you, but would require a lot more work and differential equations that you wouldn't understand anyway. Basically... most lack the necessary tool box to begin to understand such 'real world' computations. And besides, if you're using same projectile at same velocity... the effect of drag is identical anyway... so everything is equal... so what one projectile loses in drag... the other does as well. http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/falling.html

    Look at this for a while, and if you understand it then maybe I'll give you some 'REAL' world calculations... which would be a waste of time because the fundamentals are the same... and the math would just end up saying the same thing: Two cows shot in the air by a cow sized cocker, or a cow sized mag, or an ACME Cow Chucker... will travel the same distance and hit the ground just as hard. Doesn't matter if it's a moo cow, dairy cow, or even a horse or English teacher with same mass and surface area...

    http://www.physics.ohio-state.edu/~p...ials/diff_eqs/

    Bottom line is: Once the ball has left the gun... that ball is on it's own. However it was propelled... paintgun, spitwad straw, cocker, mag, outta your butt... whatever... it doesn't matter.

    It's initially traveling at <B>300fps</B>... end of story.

    <IMG SRC="http://www.automags.org/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=447471">

  22. #82
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    Sorry guys. Something personal came up and I didnt get to do my test. I will do it asap. Hopefully one day during the week. If not maybe this sunday. Im going to test range and accuracy. And like I said....If Im wrong Ill admit it. I just got to see for myself.

    Oh...and thanks for all the replies. I see this subject is a pretty good one. Maybe somebody will do more post like this one so we can all fight it out. I hate being the bad guy. Why dont one of you come up with some argument we can all get into. I know my subject isnt too original but im from Mississippi and Im dumb.......J/K.....LOL......But I am from Mississippi.

    You guys play hard and have fun.
    Your Friend.....
    robspectre

  23. #83
    Originally posted by Retardrice


    untrue

    two piece barrels often use a method called stepdown, where the first half of the barrel should fit the ball perfectly while the second half should not.

    the second half of the barrel gives small room around the ball creating quicker reshape of the paintball, therefore, depending on the barrel, paintballs will reshape quicker or slower.
    what does that have to do with what i said? it doesnt matter whether u use a two piece, 5 piece, 1.5 piece or any piece barrel, the ball will not be deformed by the airblast. tom only did a test with a crap load of clear barrels to prove that.

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