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Thread: New Paintball Technology - UNDERTOW!!!!

  1. #1
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    New Paintball Technology - UNDERTOW!!!!

    http://imperialpaintball.com/index.c...4908&pageid=60


    hehee - i dunno - seems like its right up there with smart parts "wobbyly water ballon" therory.

    Comments?

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  2. #2
    Isn't this similar to Cooper T's old "Undershot" bolt?

  3. #3
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    Actually I think it is the same concept as the smart parts rifling. To quote Bill Gardner
    The Smart parts barrel puts a very light spin on the ball. It's not disruptive. And what it does is, if you have a bell curve or distribution and you fire other than Smart Parts barrels, you'll find that when they reach the end of their energy curve, when they're way out there, they can fall in any direction. They can drop left, they can drop right, they can drop randomly- it's arandom pattern.
    But the Smart Parts barrel, you'll find that the end of its trajectory, it will generally always fall in the one direction. That gives you a little bit more control over that flight path. A competative edge.
    The concept is by spinning the ball a little you take out some of the randomness of the walking man.
    Of course they are both trying to sell you something.
    Hitmanng

  4. #4
    Has anyone here actually tried one of these bolts yet?
    SMILE

  5. #5
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    I dunno, it just seems like an in-gun alteritive to tipman's flat-line barrel to me. it just seems silly to me, doesn't make much sense to me either. ah well

  6. #6

    Not sure of the Undertow would work.

    It might impart a slight spin around a fixed axis but isn't the problem the liquid core. It would take a substantial spin on the exterior, in any direction and on any axis, to get the interior spinning.

    Anyone know the difference between the speed of the earths core and its crust? (I understand that this is a bad analogy due to the consideration that the earths core is most likely solid but I have nothing else)

  7. #7
    I really like how they state it will be more accurate, but never show any photos of groupings from the undertow bolt and a normal bolt!

    Sounds like phooey to me!
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  8. #8
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    OK I havent read all the stuff on their site but are they talking about gyroscopic stability or backspinning to give it longer range? If its backspinning then theres no need to get the inside spinning, because its just the outside that effects the way it moves. Spinning cylinders and spheres create lift, and the insides dont matter. But if its gyroscopic then the innards of the thing matter a lot.
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  9. #9
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    if you dont get the inside spinning as well the outer shell will have too much drag to spin and the needed rate for and real amount of useful time
    "AHHH The Good Life... Jeep Driving, Paintball Shooting, SCUBA Diving, Hardcore Seabee" ~Yamz

  10. #10
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    Help from TK?

    I am sure Tom could quell this silly talk....he has "been there...done that"...

  11. They're smoking crack. First off, in that firstlittle graphic where they're trying to show that paintballs rotate about a radom center (def not center of gravity) if fired from a regular barrel, just use common sense. Pick any point and try to rotate the paintball about that point while it is inside the barrel. Look what happens, the ball get's wedged in the barrel! Any paintball that has any inclination to rotate in the barrel has to rotate around their approximate center otherwise some really nasty stuff would start happening. The problem that I see is that when they put a blast of air at the bottom of the ball, it would jam the ball against the top of the barrel. I think it would be interesting to do the powder test with this bolt (coating the inside of the barrel with powder and then firing a ball to see where it touches the barrel). Anywho, at the bottom of the page they claim that their bolt is "friction free delrin," which is complete bs. I mean, come on, if they really did have friction free delrin they wouldn't waste it on bolts for paintball guns. Besides, it would be insanely expensive not to mention physcially impossible. Ignoring this, they're graph is irrelevent seeing as how it is lacking dimensions for the y-axis completely. But back to their claims of tighter grouping at longer range. There is a very good reason that rifles are, well, rifled. That is of course to impart a spin on the bullet and create gyroscopic stability. I can only fathom that this is what this company is trying to do but if you work out the math, you can't build up much inerita in a 12g paintball (that's the mass I used). Enough to make a difference, but until some real numbers are posted (actual spin rate for example), and even after they are posted, I would rather put my money into a new air system.

  12. #12
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    i have one on my impulse and it works. your supposed to use it like a z body with a larger bore to create the back spin which flattens out the trajectory not to increase range

  13. #13
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    Ok folks, here's a word of advice; if you want to be taken seriously, make sure your SPELLING is CORRECT. The first sentence is spelled wrong! I stopped reading after that, because, frankly, I no longer cared. A paintball moves too slowly and has too much mass for spin to affect accuracy to any great degree. People need to stop applying bullet ballistics to paintball; they are two different things.
    X-mag #10. Nuff said.

    my feedback

  14. It's ballistics in general, and the same physics that apply to a 45/70 apply to a .68 Nelson.

  15. #15
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    I read all the stuff above, I have in the past read Toms words of wisdom on the spinning of paint balls. I have conducted my own test and come to this conclusion. Any money a person spends on a gadget that causes the spinning of a normal paint ball is waisted. Several factors come into play when ever this conversation comes up.
    1. A paint ball is not a solid object, nor is it a liquid filled object it is a gel and even the viscosity of that gell within any one paintball is not consistant due to age, temp, humidity.

    2. size and wheight are not a constant due to the above conditions.

    I saw someone talk about gryoscopic principle. Those laws only apply to solid objects. However if you apply them to the shell only what will happen is the ball will balance its self and spin on its own center of gravity, however with a gell filling that center of gravity is not a constant and what you will find is a very inconsistant flight path.

    Try this, spin a glass of ice water, does the ice and water spin at the same rate? No. Now take a shot glass and fill it 3/4 full with veg oil, and 1/4 with some other liquid, do the veg oil, other liquid and shot glass spin at the same rate? No. Now clean out the shot glass fill it with you drink of choice relax and remember that we play paintball for the fun of it.

  16. #16
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    Originally posted by Enigma4you
    I read all the stuff above, I have in the past read Toms words of wisdom on the spinning of paint balls. I have conducted my own test and come to this conclusion. Any money a person spends on a gadget that causes the spinning of a normal paint ball is waisted. Several factors come into play when ever this conversation comes up.
    1. A paint ball is not a solid object, nor is it a liquid filled object it is a gel and even the viscosity of that gell within any one paintball is not consistant due to age, temp, humidity.

    2. size and wheight are not a constant due to the above conditions.

    I saw someone talk about gryoscopic principle. Those laws only apply to solid objects. However if you apply them to the shell only what will happen is the ball will balance its self and spin on its own center of gravity, however with a gell filling that center of gravity is not a constant and what you will find is a very inconsistant flight path.

    Try this, spin a glass of ice water, does the ice and water spin at the same rate? No. Now take a shot glass and fill it 3/4 full with veg oil, and 1/4 with some other liquid, do the veg oil, other liquid and shot glass spin at the same rate? No. Now clean out the shot glass fill it with you drink of choice relax and remember that we play paintball for the fun of it.
    Im SO sure that you did some random test to prove that spin doesnt improve accuracy

    Why dont you at least TRY the product, mabe read some reviews of it?

  17. Unless your shooting crap, soaked in water, left on the field for six weeks paint, why would the paint NOT spin with the shell of the paintball? Last time I checked, the fill inside the shell is really, really thick. Besides, proof the the paintball spins, the Tippmann flatline works great.

  18. #18
    The tippmann flatline does work, but not in what most people perceive it as, most people perceive the flatline to have great accuracy and fly farther than anything. It does one of these things, It shoots at a longer range at the same muzzle velocity than a normal paintball at the same muzzle velocity. It does not, however, increase accuracy. if anything, it worsens it. The backspinning ball creates an uneven turbulence behind the ball. Plus, in unstable conditions(wind for example) will greatly affect the accuracy of the paintball, because in its stage where it exceeds normal flight range, it has lost its power and is 'floating through the air useing backspin to keep it in the air' wind will toss it like a catboat in a hurricane. Its not worth it.

  19. #19
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    Smile

    I shoot evil or allstar when I play airball and I shoot viper when I play woods ball. To answer the question about my testing method. First I looked at ballistic test for different bullets and read about rifled barrels. For example .22 cal rim fire has a muzzel vel. of about 3700 fps. the barrel have different number of twist per inch the ranges I looked at were one twist per 6 inches to one twist per 14 inches. With a max speed of 300 fps the number of twist per inch nessary to get any type of improved shot grouping would be huge like 50 or greater. So took an old 14 inch DYE boomstick that I had (outside of it was messed up but the inside of it was perfect) plugged the end and put 2 sealed bearings on the ouside of the barrel, I then welded two steel rods between the bearings and mounted the whole deal in a vise and used a 1/2 hp dc motor with a vari drive and mounted a 4 inch rubber wheel on the shaft to turn the barrel within the bearings. with a foot pedal trigger on a standard scuba tank I fired the barrel over a chrono and played with the preassure untill I got a speed of no less than 285 fps and no more than 300 fps within a ten shot group.

    I spun the barrel at 100 rpm for ten shots, using the bell curve method that toms uses I shot at a standard 50 yard military target placed 50 feet from the end of the barrel. I increased the spin rate by 100 rpm and shot ten ball groups up to 1000 rpm. My shot groups showed very little improvement from my baseline test of 10 shots at 0rpm.
    I then got bored with the whole idea and put my toys up. I dont think my testing was random but I may be wrong. the whole deal took about 3 weeks to plan build and test.

    If you would like to send me your product I will be more than happy to give it a shot (pardon the pun) who knows maybe you did build a better mouse trap.

    My qualifications are BSEE NCSU. USN 85-91 IC2 (e-5) sperry gyro's were my special. I also bench rest shoot with an enfield .308

  20. I've NEVER heard of a rimfire .22 having a muzzle velocity of 3700 fps, in truth, very few rifles ever achieve that velocity with factory loads, let alone a small twenty-two.

    Check here

    http://www.chuckhawks.com/22_rimfire_cartridges.htm

    .22 long ~ veloctity is sub 1300 fps

    Or here

    http://www.nfa.ca/NFAFiles/CFJArchiv...mfireAmmo.html

    The highest velocity given is for a .22 mag at 2200 fps

    Or here

    http://www.wholesalehunter.com/produ...Cartridges.htm

    Or here

    http://www.remington.com/ammo/rimfire/22wmammo.htm

    So you went to college and you shoot an enfield .308, I'm not questioning the validity of your test, but you claim that you know what your talking about and then make a horribly wrong post about one of the most well known cartridges in riflery.

  21. #21
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    My question is how it actually works through the entire flight of the ball. With standard ballistic tests they can, and often do, monitor the projectile from the time it leaves the barrel until it makes impact. I would like to see how the “spin” holds up at range.

    I doubt that they would take the time or money to do this however. It is easier to do something, draw conclusions from it, and sell the hype… whether it is truly an improvement or not. I will not even comment on how the ball would “bounce” off the top of the barrel by applying substantially more force at the bottom half of the paintball………

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  22. #22
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    Enigma4you:

    Taking the velocity of 1300fps of a .22 long, and the rifling of 14" per rifled twist as a base, your paintball barrel would have to be rotating at about 67000 rpm to simulate the effects. If you use a higher velocity as your base, then the rpms required would also increase.

    Interesting experiment, and I commend your efforts.
    Except for the Automag in front, its usually the man behind the equipment that counts.

  23. Isn't this why the RT cycles at 26 bps? Isn't this why Timmy's, Angels and other such guns spew paint at 15, 16, 17bps and higher? Didn't we clamor for such high ROF guns because we figured that 20 shots in the general area of a foot was much, much more likely to hit than a single, well aimed shot that could be sent awry by so many factors? If you want five or six MOA accuracy out of your paintball gun at 50 yards then you need to begin with much closer tollerences between the projectile and the barrel, PLUS rifling. Think about the calibers rifles and pistols come in, .223, .308, .357, this means the projecticles are machined down to one-thousandth of an inch percision, a level of exactness paintballs will probably never see. Heck, take the .357, which you can shoot .38's out of, the differnce between the projectiles is .023''. If paintballs could be made to this tollerance each and every time, and stay the same shape regardless of humidity, temprature or maybe even altitude, then you could start thinking about making a more accurate gun. The barrels are fine, I've taken calipers to all of mine and they retain tollerances of +- .0005 down the length of the bore. The projectile is the problem. It's like trying to make a more accurate potato cannon when your still using potatos straight out of the bag. Now, if you took those spuds and chucked them up in a CNC lathe and milled them to look like a cannon, or minie ball, then you could do long range artillery bombardament or snipe your neighbor's stupid dog from eighty yards.

  24. #24
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    Originally posted by backtrack2pb
    Heck, take the .357, which you can shoot .38's out of, the differnce between the projectiles is .023''.
    In reality, any reloader will tell you this, the .357 Mag and .38 Special bullets are exactly the same diameter. Maybe someone else here can tell you the reason why the .38 is called what it is, but the only real difference is the 1/10th inch(.10) in the case length.

    DW

  25. The .38 is a bullet that is .38 inches in diameter, where as the .357 is a bullet that is .357 inches in diameter. The original .38 slug was reduced to .357 and called a .38 Special, since it was the "Special" version of the original .38 bullet. That is why the .357 is the same diamter as the .38 Special, although not the .38.

    http://www2.whidbey.com/deadeye/38&357.htm

    Another example that I could have offered is one of the many conversion kits for the AR-15. Most, like those that change it out to 9mm or 7.62, replace the barrel as well as the breech and pretty much the entire action. But the conversion kit that changes the a .223 AR-15 to .22 rimfire just changes out the breech and uses the barrel that was already on the gun. Bad example, but still relevant.

  26. #26
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    Yep I made a huge mistake on the .22 rim fire thing. But it was almost 1 am. I never claimed to know what I was talking about, I only claim to know what I saw. I dont see how this thing works. But I could be wrong. IF I went out and bought every product that claims it will make paint go further, shoot better, not break a ball or turn you into the best shot on the field I would go broke.

    The tippmann flatline is a good example, yep it does what they say it will do, your shot distance does increase 100 feet, however there is not enough power left to break the ball if your lucky enough to hit someone, and they dont tell you that you break almost as much paint in the barrel as you shoot, dont get me wrong, I think tippmann has some great guns, I have an A-5 rt that I love, but I shoot a boom stick on it.

    My point here is and was this, From what I read and saw on the link I dont understand how this thing would work, maybe it does. but from the post I have read here most of you agree that its another product that makes big claims but in fact it just smoke and mirrors.

    I just upgraded my mag to the x valve. I did so because AGD was able to back the claims they made with proof. My gun started leaking from the power tube last sunday, but I knew what to do to fix it because AGD had already been there and done that when they tested the level 10. I buy from the people I can trust, it takes alot to get me to trust a company, but then again wasnt that Toms tounge in the video?

  27. #27
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    Geeezz, all this discussion and no one brings up the "paintball spin physics" thread.

    There seems to be some undying need to buy new stuff in paintball just because someone says it will help you. Looks to me liks its the male version of the females need for a better diet.

    AGD

  28. #28
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    Originally posted by AGD
    Geeezz, all this discussion and no one brings up the "paintball spin physics" thread.
    I've grown weary of posting it. No one reads it anyway.

  29. #29
    Originally posted by backtrack2pb
    The .38 is a bullet that is .38 inches in diameter, where as the .357 is a bullet that is .357 inches in diameter. The original .38 slug was reduced to .357 and called a .38 Special, since it was the "Special" version of the original .38 bullet. That is why the .357 is the same diamter as the .38 Special, although not the .38.

    http://www2.whidbey.com/deadeye/38&357.htm

    Another example that I could have offered is one of the many conversion kits for the AR-15. Most, like those that change it out to 9mm or 7.62, replace the barrel as well as the breech and pretty much the entire action. But the conversion kit that changes the a .223 AR-15 to .22 rimfire just changes out the breech and uses the barrel that was already on the gun. Bad example, but still relevant.
    You are wrong in this statement. Any reloader would know this. The "calibers" that are used to refer to weapons and their associated cartridges rarely are the actual diameters of the projectile. Check a reloading manual and tell me what the diameter of a .223, .222, and 22-250 round is. 38s, 357s, and 38 supers all use the same diameter bullet - as do 308s, 30-30s and 30-06. They are purposely mis-labeled to distinguish between the rounds not to specify the bullet diameter used. You should check out black powder - it's even worse! There is no modern firearm (that I'm aware of) that fires a .38 caliber projectile.

    It is my experience (as someone with over 20 years experience handloading and competitive shooting) that there is NOTHING that really relates from firearm balistics to paintball.

    -Calvin

    PS. Can you explain how the flatline shoots a 3gram ball at 300fps 100 feet futher then a regular paintgun?
    From a poster at PB Nation:

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  30. Ok, according to http://www.reloadammo.com , a .222 bullet is actually .224'' in daiameter while a .223 is also .224'' in diamter. 30-30 and 30-06 are slugs are both .308'' in diamter which is the same ID as most .300 rounds. I stand corrected.

    The flatline shoots a paintball farther than other markers because of it's curved barrel. I almost find it hard to blieve that somebody with 641 posts on this forum would not have asked about this until now. Anyways, the flatline works because of the Magnus effect which you can read about here http://www.geocities.com/k_achutarao/MAGNUS/magnus.html

    It has to do with how putting a backspin on a paintball changes the airflow around the object. The flatline barrel is so grossly curved so that the paintball runs along the top of the barrel during accecleration and is imparted with the back spin. The Magnus Effect is part of the reason why curveballs curve, soccer balls veer into the goal and golf balls sometimes get a nasty hook halfway through their flight. All of these effects are caused by an unbalenced force acting on the ball. If the unbalenced force is directed upward and it is of the correct porportion then all of a sudden it comes into balence with gravity and the object in flight does not loose or gain altitude. This is what the flatline barrel does. It puts the propper spin on a paintball so that the Magnus effect is directed upward in an attempt to balence out the force of gravity and hence give the paintball a greater range. It works to, I've shot flatlines and played against them. Altough the range may not be a full extra 100 feet it is enough to make you change your strategy.

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