Shooting faster makes you better?

**Bubonic Plauge** · 03-05-2003, 02:40 PM

Ok, first off I want to say that I mentioned this in another post about equipment, sorry for breaking off.
Everyone is going to want to say that your ROF is not going to make you a better player...a gun doesnt create skill etc...SKill is in the player..yadda yadda yadda...
IF that is true, than why are people saying it is hard to compete against warp fed mags?
Why dont people use pumps against semis?
Why would the millitary spend billions of dollars to have greater firepower (ROF, explosion radius, snitchs, air, navel, etc...)if it was all about the soldier?

The reason is ROF, equipment makes a HUGE difference. A gun that doesnt break paint (level 10) and shoots over 20 ball/second WILL make a HUGE difference vs. a spyder.

I am willing to upset the masses and say that this game is 50% skill and 50% gear. IF we ALL had the same gear then it would be 100% skill...but most people dont play stock, they want that advantage...admit it now people, we ALL like to be special /pat ourselves on back.
Heh, we are all elitists..after all we are mag fans!

Craig egg

**JAM** · 03-05-2003, 02:48 PM

I guess i agree to a point, shooting faster doesn't make you a better player, but it increases the chances that you'll land a good accidental hit... If you throw one average shot at someone, you do have much less of a chance of hitting them than if you shot 30 fast shots towards them. Equipment does make a difference- accuracy depends on pressure/ valve/ reg consistency, etc. and playing against a group of players of the same level with superior equipment will have the odds in your favor. BUT if someone's a much better player than I am, it doesn't matter too much what the equipment is, I'm done for.

-j

**Bubonic Plauge** · 03-05-2003, 02:51 PM

You could also add mere stats to the picture. If target "A" shoots "X" amount of paint at me, and I shoot 5"X" at target "A", statistically I have an advantage. Yes, there are other factors you must rule in (cover etc) but the fact remains.

CraigEgg

**shartley** · 03-05-2003, 02:59 PM

Overly simplified.

And if you want to use the military as an example, you might think twice. The Military has actually gone the opposite way and focused on precision munitions and weapons over mass firepower. You are confusing one aspect of the overall picture with the greater picture at hand. Look at all the major weapons systems and you will see what I am talking about.

Yes, mass fires are used, and are an important part of “warfare”, but that is only a small part of it now days. You also have to consider WHY and WHEN that is used.

Again.. sorry… you oversimplified the situation and are missing too much of it to make a valid argument.

As for Warp Feeds… it is not just ROF that makes them what they are…. it is the ability to reduce profile, shoot at odd angles, etc.

And people DO use pumps against semis. They just don’t usually do that in a tournament. And that is because the difference between the two is HUGE, not only is it ROF, but it is the stability of the marker when aiming/firing. Think about it.

**LaW** · 03-05-2003, 03:17 PM

Playing with a warp, and playing against people that have warps. I still don't see a decisive advantage for someone with a warp. I don't find it hard to play against someone with one at all.

So your saying by shooting a case/kill it makes you a better player? I think the way everything is going with ROF paintball will eventually lose its appeal to the masses, at least tournament play. It is when the emphasis turns from team work and playing smart to who can sling more paint and spend the most money.....

my 2cents

**Patron God of Pirates** · 03-05-2003, 03:47 PM

I don't want to be able to shoot 20 balls per second so that I can shoot a stream of twenty balls in one second. I want it so I can shoot 5 balls in 1/4 of a second.

Each ball increases the chance of a hit and break, an a smaller time frame gives my target less opportunity to dodge.

Thats ROF form a front players perspective.

**askman** · 03-05-2003, 03:48 PM

the main difference between real life and game is this. In military situation, you are limited to what you carry. Typically 12 clips (360 rounds) is a load for infantry. The reason military went to .223 caliber was because it is lighter. also soldiers has to carry full pack all day long, forced march, etc..

Paintball is a game. Lets not lose sight of that. with its own rule. It is designed so that slinging lot of paint is an advantage. (also good for the manufacturer and field owner) Will game be different, if there is limit on paint that player can carry? I think it would make it more fun. takes more thoughts/planning, etc. how about per team limit, rather than person limit. that way team can divvy it up the way they feel is best utilized also, dead can leave the paint where they were killed. will it improve the game? I think so. less spray and pray , more deliberate firing.

**joeyjoe367** · 03-05-2003, 04:00 PM

I wouldn't say that being able to shoot faster directly effects your skill level. Moving around, finding angles, etc.. has nothing to do with your gun. Heck, you could run around in a speedball game and do exactly that, but you'd never score eliminations without a gun.

10 bps or 14 bps may or may not make the differance between getting the elimination you worked hard, moving around and communicating to get. You have a statistical advantage, as was already stated.

Warp Feeds, again, give you a statistical advantage. By reducing your profile, it decreases the chance of getting hit.

All this "Rate of Fire" crap is due to the inheriant(sp?) innaccuracy of a sphere traveling at muzzel velocities of 300 fps. Accuracy by volume is the only way to go in this sport, and it's not going to change until our medium ( a new ammunition ) changes.

**Ultimator** · 03-05-2003, 04:04 PM

Why would the millitary spend billions of dollars to have greater firepower (ROF, explosion radius, snitchs, air, navel, etc...)if it was all about the soldier?

You are comparing apples and oranges here. Modern-day paintball has absolutely nothing in common with the military. Like SHartley said, you can't really make a valid argument comparing paintball to the miltary.

... to who can sling more paint and spend the most money.....

Paintball has been like that since day one. It was about who can buy the most 10 round tubes and 10 grams at one point but the same logic can be applied. This is the entire reason that paintball is where it is today. People weren't satisfied with Nel-Splats, so the arms race began.

**Quiet** · 03-05-2003, 04:17 PM

Okay, look at this scenario:

there are two of me, one shoots an RT at 6 balls a sec, the other shoots an e-mag at 12 balls a sec. Lets say that one out of every 4 balls bouces and doesn't break. Both of me pop out of of their respective bunkers for 1/2 seconds of snap shooting. With the e-mag 6 balls are travelling at the opponent and with the RT 3 balls. Say I only land a third of my shots when snap shooting. Now two shots land using the e-mag and only one with the RT. Take the bounce stat from earlier and the RT me has a 75% chance of getting an elimination and the Emag me has two chances at 75% to get the elimination.

Equipment makes a difference, but once you get past a certain threshold level the returns you get from increasing it drops significantly. On the other hand it is improvement you can buy and if you're really close to the top, every bit helps.

My buck fiddy

**LaW** · 03-05-2003, 04:20 PM

Dont give me this scenario crap... Geez I am sick of hearing some of this stuff. Scenario's are not valid arguments

**Ultimator** · 03-05-2003, 04:28 PM

Originally posted by Quiet
Okay, look at this scenario:

there are two of me, one shoots an RT at 6 balls a sec, the other shoots an e-mag at 12 balls a sec. Lets say that one out of every 4 balls bouces and doesn't break. Both of me pop out of of their respective bunkers for 1/2 seconds of snap shooting. With the e-mag 6 balls are travelling at the opponent and with the RT 3 balls. Say I only land a third of my shots when snap shooting. Now two shots land using the e-mag and only one with the RT. Take the bounce stat from earlier and the RT me has a 75% chance of getting an elimination and the Emag me has two chances at 75% to get the elimination.

Equipment makes a difference, but once you get past a certain threshold level the returns you get from increasing it drops significantly. On the other hand it is improvement you can buy and if you're really close to the top, every bit helps.

My buck fiddy

Uh, wow, congratulations you just applied a bunch of random crap to a random scenario. Sorry, but you're better off just deleting that post. I don't see how you proved a point at all.

EDIT: Paintball is nowhere near to all those statistics you just pulled out of nowhere. Getting a bonce is completely random and half the other stuff you mentioned are just made up. You can't argue using hypothetical situations. If for some reason you had a point to posting that please make it more clear.

**TheJester** · 03-05-2003, 04:36 PM

well speed doesn't reflect skill, speed really is only a supression thing, to keep that kid w/ the pump from coming out and hitting you w/ 1 ball, you're gonna shoot 15/second at his bunker. speed is over rated, yes, we all want to shoot faster, but the only reason why we want to shoot faster is just so we can say we can...braging rights nothing more. you see it all the time, horse power in cars is a good example, why do you need a car w/ 400 horses when the speed limit is only 65(75 in the south) on the highways? because you can, and because you then have braging rights

Originally posted by Bubonic Plauge
why are people saying it is hard to compete against warp fed mags?

there's more to a warp feed than just a fast feed rate, such as different shooting angles. you never hear any 1 complain hor hard it is to compete against some 1 w/ a halo when they both feed at the same rate. i think most of the warp issue is in their head...that big thing on the side of their gun is what's doing the work...it's easier to say that then just say damn, that kid's better than i am

**Quiet** · 03-05-2003, 04:40 PM

Tell me this LAW - if the marker doesn't make a difference, why is it you a ponying up the cash for an SFL

Ultimator - The point was not to prove a point, the entire purpose of that was to get you guys stirred up. Regardless of any statistics/proofs/facts people can and will throw together any argument that supports their personal belief.
P.S. I have never seen a good argument that shows that with all other things held equal a better marker won't help your odds.

I have yet to see anything decisive to one side or other. I use a retro-mag because I know I can trust it to do what I need and have seen no clear argument for me to throw more money to make myself better.

**LaW** · 03-05-2003, 04:50 PM

Originally posted by Quiet
Tell me this LAW - if the marker doesn't make a difference, why is it you a ponying up the cash for an SFL

Ultimator - The point was not to prove a point, the entire purpose of that was to get you guys stirred up. Regardless of any statistics/proofs/facts people can and will throw together any argument that supports their personal belief.
P.S. I have never seen a good argument that shows that with all other things held equal a better marker won't help your odds.

I have yet to see anything decisive to one side or other. I use a retro-mag because I know I can trust it to do what I need and have seen no clear argument for me to throw more money to make myself better.

I have a simple answer for that, because i have the cash. I am going from an emag to an sfl emag... same exact marker

I also play with a tracer pump from time to time. But the answer to your question is because I have the cash to spend...

**Jerhew** · 03-05-2003, 06:05 PM

there are so many variables involved
that it'd be silly to say what percentage is what

of course better equipment in general will help your game(or if you're a pessimist, it'll be less likely to make you worse

)

rof is only a tiny chunk of everything it is to be able to play this game well.
as is marker profile...sure it helps but it won't win you a game by itself

you have to also factor in the marker's accuracy(which includes valving, consistency..etc), reliability and ability to not break balls. The quality of the paint, which also affects accuracy and ball breaks(both inside your gun and on the player you're trying to eliminate)

and most importantly, you have to factor in the players skills. A short list of player skills include:
running(which in itself includes both speed and quickness), snapshooting, shot accuracy(in general), strategy, decision making...by far an incomplete list but you get the idea

the point is
don't worry about analyzing it so much
just get out there and play
too many kids see this emphasis on equipment
they see a thread like this where people are saying it's 50% skill 50% equipment
"mommy bought me an angel, im half way there already"
grrr

i will say there are certain pre-requisites for equipment
but i don't count rof as being that high on the list
id like to see more posts about
"does the dependability of my mag give me an advantage?"

**SyntaxError** · 03-05-2003, 06:33 PM

There is WAY too much emphasis on equipment. As long as the marker is comfortable and works, its all up to the player. There are still SO many people who suck and have tons of high end gear, it obviously doesnt make the player any better.

**AcemanPB** · 03-05-2003, 08:44 PM

Simply put: The more paint you have in the air the greater the chance you'll hit someone

**PzYcO** · 03-05-2003, 08:49 PM

if you depened on your ROF that much, you have no skill so your basically spray`n`pray which is pretty stupid

**jayloo** · 03-05-2003, 09:18 PM

Personally I use high rate of fire for suppression and hitting that guy on the run. Other than that 2-3 ball bursts works great ... never know if the first 1 will break.

PzYcO, I agree with you. Plus while the guy is shootin away he's lettin u know his position and focus. Go gog him.

**Tack** · 03-05-2003, 10:45 PM

Many things about this argument can be looked at from different points of view.

Players with good equipment will fall into two different catigories in my honest opinion.

Catigory 1: rely on shooting alot of paint and not moveing. Hiding in a bunker and not useing their marker to the it's fullest. Those players will think they are better because they can shoot 16 bps out of a bunker and get some luckey eleminations.

Catigory 2: Players that will find that useing a better, faster, tricked out gun raises their abilities. They are more confident, dareing, and willing to duke it out with other players.

The catigory 1 players will always feel let down with their marer because no matter how expensive it is, they will continue to get eleminated and never have a positive hit to be hit ratio. They will spend more and more money on the latest thing. Think they are happy when everyone at their field swoons over their new toy, but still play the same game.

The catigory 2 players will be happy with their guns, learn how to use them to their abilities, and evolve into better players becaus of it.

I own a Emag, an Angel, and a Retro-Mag. All fast shooting, high end markers. Before that I played with a Tippmann 98, a Genie, and a VM-69. I must say that in my personal experience, getting a fast shooting gun allowed me to feel more confident in my abilities. I could now go toe to toe with other players on the field. That lead to me being more willing to move out of a bunker or stand across the field and dump as much paint on an opponant as they were dumping on me. Has my skills improuved since I got my Emag? YES! Am I the best player to ever play the game? NO! However am I willing to go up against the best in the buisness now? Hell yah.

So hopefully in my rambeling my point was made. Will a high powered, super fast gun make you a better player? Yes and No. You must evolve as a player to match your gun. If you don't you will be the one at the field who everyone laughs at after a day of play because you paid $1000.00 or more for your gun but got shot out every game and only shot 2-300 rounds during the day.

**ß.C.** · 03-05-2003, 11:00 PM

I too believe equipment makes a big difference, but only for the experienced players(not exactly a tourney player but any player who knows when/how to shoot) The less experience the less impact the equipment makes.

As for the military thing, face it guys, as much as we want to the believe it we do not know much about military research. I've heard all the rumors about how our men/women in arms will carry lasers, sniper pistols, rail guns, rapidfire explosive shells, etc. We do not know what is true and what is not true. Unless you somehow work for the government, research for the military, or are soldier yourself I do not believe our points are valid for a clear arguement. Think about it, the government HAS TO tell lies to protect us. The media blabbers EVERYTHING and weapons research is one of those they most likely keep a secret.

**FooTemps** · 03-06-2003, 12:33 AM

Shooting faster is a sign of you getting better imo...

Not the kind of shooting faster that comes from a faster gun, but the kind from just shooting so damn much. It's like taking 11 bps on a timmy and bumping that speed up to 13 bps. That shows that you have improved your skills with your marker.

Shooting 4 bps on a spyder and 11 bps on an angel doesn't really help your game... Yeah, you can shoot faster but can you put those extra bps to good use? Shooting faster doesn't improve your reaction time or aiming skills, it just gives you more to work with.

**hitmanng** · 03-06-2003, 01:01 AM

Does equipment make a difference? Yes of course it does. It you lane shooting 19 bps noone can make it through that stream of paint.
The fact is that skill makes a much greatter difference. That is how Total greif maxed the All Americans using stock class against semi-autos.
Give a great paintball team pumps and a novice team e-mags and the better team will win.
That said, if teams are equal in skill, rate of fire and equipment will make a difference. The real question is how much is enough. In the example above the RT got one ball through the emag got two. With skilled players, they were almost equal, they both eliminated the player.
Take 2 great players and give one a emag and the other a 68 and no chops and I do not think that the equipment will determine the winner. The skill will.
Hitmanng

**Bubonic Plauge** · 03-06-2003, 02:37 AM

I agree with Hitmang...all things being equal than its just skill. How often are all things equal?

Why do you think AGD...SP..etc, are engineering new guns? Technology. The better the gun, the better the team. Two teams equal in skill, one with very old technology vs one with new..guess who wins?

You have to realize that hitting a target (down a air shaft) with a laser guided missle from another continent(sp) is a Technological advantage. ROF doesnt have to equate to firepower. Firepower is a sum of many parts.

What I am surmising from the posts is that ROF may not be the "end all" booster, but overall gear is.
IF ROF did not make a difference, than why are players buying pod after pod belts that fit more paint? Or pods that open faster, easier? ROF matters, thats why. Warp feeds ROF dont help you say? Ok..but shooting upside down or sideways does help...thats gear.

Your gear gives you an advantage, its the same of any sport. Thats why many sports have stock divisions, drug testing, boxing weight divisions..etc.....

CraigEgg

"The greatest wisdom is knowing that you are not wise"
-Socrates

**hitmanng** · 03-06-2003, 03:30 PM

Originally posted by Bubonic Plauge
I agree with Hitmang...all things being equal than its just skill. How often are all things equal?

I am not saying all things equal I am saying a reasonable level of equality. If you can shoot it 6bps and fairly straight skill is a bigger factor.

Why do you think AGD...SP..etc, are engineering new guns? Technology. The better the gun, the better the team. Two teams equal in skill, one with very old technology vs one with new..guess who wins?

They make new and faster markers because people ask for them. At one time they all promised to cut things off at 13bps saying that was fast enough. What happened is called market pressure. People want something faster so to sell more markers they make something faster.
Depending on how old you are talking. You are talking you are right, you would not want a nelspot against an emag but give me a well tuned gun 3-4 years old maybe a B2K for a 1999 Cocker and I would say skill is the bigger factor.

What I am surmising from the posts is that ROF may not be the "end all" booster, but overall gear is.
IF ROF did not make a difference, than why are players buying pod after pod belts that fit more paint? Or pods that open faster, easier? ROF matters, thats why. Warp feeds ROF dont help you say? Ok..but shooting upside down or sideways does help...thats gear.

Any gear you add also often adds a hinderance. Carrying 1500 balls might be OK if your job is to stand in the back and cover a zone, but I would not want to run and slide into a bunker with that much paint. You keep asking why do people keep doing this if it isn't better, that is not a valid argument. Why do people invest in a stock that is at ten times it earning potential? Because everyone else is doing it and they don't want to miss out that's why. Warp feed has advantages and disadvantages. Using one or not is a personal decision. If you think it will augment the way you play then use it. It maynot be right for the next guy.

Your gear gives you an advantage, its the same of any sport. Thats why many sports have stock divisions, drug testing, boxing weight divisions..etc.....
CraigEgg

Paintball does have divisions they are not based on ROF, or gear, they are based on skill levels. Pro Am A Am B Rookie novice etc. Thanks for proving my point.

Hitmanng

**speedyejl** · 03-06-2003, 05:24 PM

Bubonic Plauge, Navel? Yea I guess belly buttons are focusing on more firepower.

Just to make a note about the millitary thing.

Right now the Air Force is creating a larger conventional bomb. Right now the largest is a 15,000lb bomb (The Daisy Cutter), well soon there will be a new bigger one. The bomb will weigh in at 21,000lbs, will be named a MAOB, and its blast will equal to a nuclear weapon. Its gonna be dropped out of the back of a C-130 at pretty damn high of altitudes.

Just something to throw in. I agree in general about heading more in the direction of percision. Its more of a terror weapon than anything else.

**Bubonic Plauge** · 03-06-2003, 05:29 PM

They do have divisions based on ROF. Stock/pump tourneys vs. semi tourney.

IF ROF didnt matter, than why are fully auto guns banned from Tourney's? Why is trigger bouncing illegal>?

It matters.

**speedyejl** · 03-06-2003, 05:32 PM

Full auto and trigger bouncing are banned because with them on you can't control how many times you fire. Which can easily lead to over shooting and over shooting is bad because it hurts. Make sense?

Also stock class is different than pump class.

**shartley** · 03-06-2003, 05:38 PM

Originally posted by speedyejl
Just to make a note about the millitary thing.

Right now the Air Force is creating a larger conventional bomb. Right now the largest is a 15,000lb bomb (The Daisy Cutter), well soon there will be a new bigger one. The bomb will weigh in at 21,000lbs, will be named a MAOB, and its blast will equal to a nuclear weapon. Its gonna be dropped out of the back of a C-130 at pretty damn high of altitudes.

Just something to throw in. I agree in general about heading more in the direction of percision. Its more of a terror weapon than anything else.

Terror weapon? Not really. It is a weapon to fit a need. There are occasions that the military needs the destructive force of such a weapon, and up until now the only way to do that is by either massive amounts of individual munitions, OR a low yield nuclear weapon. This new bomb will solve that problem.

Such a use would be on highly developed bunker complexes, and other similar things. And because of this, it will save lives.

Again, it is not a terror weapon. It allows the military to affect a target in a relatively safe way with little long term damage (such as is caused by nuclear weapons). I would argue that THAT would also be considered a precision weapon system as well, you are just targeting a larger area….. but still with ONE weapon.

And folks always like to make the comparison to a nuclear weapon…. But what most forget is that the comparison is to a SMALL nuclear weapon. We have caused much more damage and “death” by standard munitions. People don’t like to talk about it, or even admit it, but the firebombing on European cities caused far more destruction and death then the bombs dropped on Japan did.

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