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Thread: IRAQ THREAD originaly "Seems at least one Brit agrees with me....er us."

  1. #1
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    Seems at least one Brit agrees with me....er us.

    This article never made it to the American press, sad too, as it is spot on. When I joined the Army 15 years ago, there were no real threats to America, heck, the USSR was falling apart and the Berlin wall was coming down. My military life was pretty easy, considering that I had no worries about getting shot by someone who didn't agree with my, or my country's, politics.

    Tony's article spells out perfectly why I do, what I do...and damn proud to do it.


    ********************************************
    Tony Parsons Daily Mirror September 11, 2002


    One year ago, the world witnessed a unique kind of broadcasting-- the mass murder of thousands, live on television. As a lesson in the pitiless cruelty of the human race, September 11 was up there with Pol Pot's Mountain of Skulls in Cambodia, or the skeletal bodies stacked like garbage in the Nazi concentration camps.


    An unspeakable act so cruel, so calculated and so utterly merciless that surely the world could agree on one thing - nobody deserves this fate. Surely there could be consensus: The victims were truly innocent, the perpetrators truly evil.


    But to the world's eternal shame, 9/11 is increasingly seen as America's comeuppance. Incredibly, anti-Americanism has increased over the last year.


    There has always been a simmering resentment to the USA in this country; too loud, too rich, too full of themselves, and so much happier than Europeans - but it has become an epidemic. And it seems incredible to me. More than that, it turns my stomach.


    America is this country's greatest friend and our staunchest ally. We are bonded to the US by culture, language and blood. A little over

    half a century ago, around half a million Americans died for our freedoms, as well as their own. Have we forgotten so soon? And exactly a year ago, thousands of ordinary men, women and children - not just Americans, but from dozens of countries, were butchered by a small group of religious fanatics. Are we so quick to betray them?


    What touched the heart about those who died in the Twin Towers and on the planes, was that we recognized them. Young fathers and mothers, somebody's son and somebody's daughter, husbands, wives, and children, some

    unborn.


    And these people brought it on themselves? Their nation is to blame for their meticulously planned slaughter?


    These days you don't have to be some dust-encrusted nut job in Kabul or Karachi or Finsbury Park to see America as the Great Satan. The anti-American alliance is made up of self-loathing liberals who blame the Americans for every ill in the Third World, and conservatives suffering from power-envy, bitter that the world's only superpower can do what it likes without having to ask permission.


    The truth is that America has behaved with enormous restraint since September 11.


    Remember, remember -


    Remember the gut-wrenching tapes of weeping men phoning their wives to say, "I love you," before they were burned alive.


    Remember those people leaping to their deaths from the top of Burning skyscrapers.


    Remember the hundreds of firemen buried alive.


    Remember the smiling face of that beautiful little girl who was on one of the planes with her mum.


    Remember, remember -


    And realize that America has never retaliated for 9/11 in anything like the way it could have.


    So a few al-Qaeda tourists got locked without a trial in Camp X-ray? Pass the Kleenex . . .


    So some Afghan wedding receptions were shot up after they merrily Fired their semi-automatics in a sky full of American planes? A shame, but maybe next time they should stick to confetti.


    AMERICA could have turned a large chunk of the world into a parking lot. That it didn't is a sign of strength. American voices are already being raised against attacking Iraq - that's what a democracy is for. How many in the Islamic world will have a minute's silence for the slaughtered innocents of 9/11? How many Islamic leaders will have the guts to say that the mass murder of 9/11 was an abomination?


    When the news of 9/11 broke on the West Bank, those freedom-loving Palestinians were dancing in the street. America watched all of that - and didn't push the button. We should thank the stars that America is the most powerful nation in the world. I still find it incredible that 9/11 did not provoke all-out war. Not a "war on terrorism." A real war.


    The fundamentalist dudes are talking about "opening the gates of hell," if America attacks Iraq. Well, America could have opened the gates of hell like you wouldn't believe.


    The US is the most militarily powerful nation that ever strode the face of the earth. The campaign in Afghanistan may have been less than perfect and the planned war on Iraq may be misconceived.


    But don't blame America for not bringing peace and light to these wretched countries. How many democracies are there in the Middle East, or in the Muslim world? You can count them on the fingers of one hand -assuming you haven't had any chopped off for minor shoplifting.


    I love America, yet America is hated. I guess that makes me Bush's poodle.


    But I would rather be a dog in New York City than a Prince in Riyadh. Above all, America is hated because it is what every country wants to be - rich, free, strong, open, optimistic. Not ground down by the past, or religion, or some caste system. America is the best friend this country ever had and we should start remembering that.


    Or do you really think the USA is the root of all evil? Tell it to the loved ones of the men and women who leaped to their death from the burning towers.


    Tell it to the nursing mothers whose husbands died on one of the hijacked planes, or were ripped apart in a collapsing skyscraper. And tell it to the hundreds of young widows whose husbands worked for the New York Fire Department.


    To our shame, George Bush gets a worse press than Saddam Hussein. Once we were told that Saddam gassed the Kurds, tortured his own people and set up rape-camps in Kuwait. Now we are told he likes Quality Street. Save me the orange center, Oh Mighty One!


    Remember, remember, September 11 -


    One of the greatest atrocities in human history was committed against America.


    No, do more than remember. Never forget.

  2. #2
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    Here here.

  3. #3
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    damn right.....


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  4. #4
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    Amen to that...

    Good for nothing bunch of bleeding-heart worthless liberals.

    Army, Thank-You for everything you've done. Take care of yourself out there, you'll be in all our thoughts and prayers.

  5. #5
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    Army: Give 'em Hell

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    Amen!

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    Yes, good article. And as someone who directly served in every conflict (or trained others to directly serve in it) from before Panama to the mid 90’s, I can say I joined and served for the same reasons. I am glad there are still soldiers serving that have been there and remember.

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    Sorry....I have to be the voice of disharmony (as 1stdeadeye is sure to predict).

    September 11th was a horrible tragedy and the tragic nature was recognized by people around the world (as was alluded to in the article). I remember reading stories about German boats flying US flags after 9/11! It brought tears to my eyes.

    The general feeling in the US is the goodwill is gone from world and that the world has become anti-American. The question that some of us fail to ask about ourselves is WHY! How can we go from Germans flying US Flags to feeling like they are ungrateful to all we have done for them (which is alot).

    I would submit that they feel slighted by us! So many countries extended the hands of friendship after 9/11 until we started the "you are either with us or against us speeches". It was like slapping them in the face! I appreciate the Brits statement of solidarity but I will also submit that if we are a freedom loving country (which I believe that we are) then we must accept that other countries can disagree with us without them being our "enemies". On this board there are a ton of anti French jokes. Is respect not a two way street?

    This is not an anti military statement. As I have said before on the board my cousin is a Marine pilot and two of my uncles are retired army. I have no problem with a strong military. If anything our technological advantage to GROW! Anyway I've put in my two cents.
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  9. #9
    Collegeboy Guest
    I agree.

    A lot of people confuse a disagreement, a criticism, with anti-Americanism. Heck I have been called an anti-American for I am against this war.

    Am I saying that there is no one out there who hates us, no 911 proves that. But to say that everyone who disagrees with us, or the majority who disagree with us is anti-US is just plain wrong.

  10. #10
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    so these people arnt anti american during their protests:





    (the boy is calling him a hero)






    (thats supposed to be Prez Bush)









    one note: all these pictures were taken in the past 4 days!

  11. #11
    Collegeboy Guest
    Originally posted by Collegeboy
    I agree.

    A lot of people confuse a disagreement, a criticism, with anti-Americanism. Heck I have been called an anti-American for I am against this war.

    Am I saying that there is no one out there who hates us, no 911 proves that. But to say that everyone who disagrees with us, or the majority who disagree with us is anti-US is just plain wrong.

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    That article and those that agree with it NEVER said "everyone who simply disagreed with an action the US takes is ANTI-American". They are talking about a particular thought process and type of demonstration that was just shown in Kev’s post… which is a HUGE thing out there.

    But some people are in such a hurry to argue and play the victim, and being so "misunderstood", that they will conveniently make posts like the two we saw posted here, which are not only out of line but way off base to what the article and the rest of us are saying, posting, and agreeing with.

    If you truly feel that all of these actions are correct, then GO JOIN THEM! And if you don’t… shut up, because THAT is what we are talking about.

    SHAME on you.

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    I believe that the Army's post had to do with French, German, Chinese, etc anti sentiment. Furthermore I am not arguing that the French, German, and Chinese have some anti american sentiment (even the Brits). My point is WHY?

    We have failed to deal with our allies with diplomacy and tact. When I heard that our official had referred to France and Germany as "old Europe" I wanted to smack him. That is neither diplomatic nor tactful and is it wrong to expect such things from our officials?

    They are our allies. We may disagree over things like Iraq but when it comes to the important stuff our ties are strong. Remember 9/11 and the outpouring of support that came to us in the aftermath. In the important stuff they are with us!

    EDIT:

    Shartely was posting while I was typing. Yes shame on me. Shame on me for saying remember 9/11 and the support our allies had for us then. While it was a tragedy the outpouring of support from our allies was a beautiful thing. We should not forget this over disagreements we have now.

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    Originally posted by aaron_mag
    Sorry....I have to be the voice of disharmony (as 1stdeadeye is sure to predict).

    September 11th was a horrible tragedy and the tragic nature was recognized by people around the world (as was alluded to in the article). I remember reading stories about German boats flying US flags after 9/11! It brought tears to my eyes.

    The general feeling in the US is the goodwill is gone from world and that the world has become anti-American. The question that some of us fail to ask about ourselves is WHY! How can we go from Germans flying US Flags to feeling like they are ungrateful to all we have done for them (which is alot).

    I would submit that they feel slighted by us! So many countries extended the hands of friendship after 9/11 until we started the "you are either with us or against us speeches". It was like slapping them in the face! I appreciate the Brits statement of solidarity but I will also submit that if we are a freedom loving country (which I believe that we are) then we must accept that other countries can disagree with us without them being our "enemies". On this board there are a ton of anti French jokes. Is respect not a two way street?

    This is not an anti military statement. As I have said before on the board my cousin is a Marine pilot and two of my uncles are retired army. I have no problem with a strong military. If anything our technological advantage to GROW! Anyway I've put in my two cents.
    You may not be anti-American but clearly there ARE many who are.

    Your comments about us slapping the hands of countries is total BS. How would a country feel slighted by us saying “You are either with us or against us”, IF they were already holding out their hand to us? That would mean they WERE with us. And they would have simply restated their backing of us.

    There is also a huge difference between French “Jokes”, and burning the US Flag, Images of our President, and all the other purely Anti-American things we see. You are trying to say your apples are the same as their oranges and that YOU are somehow being called anti-American for simply disagreeing with something, when that is NOT what that article and the people in this thread are saying… not at all.

    Get a grip, and get a clue. Is arguing so important to you that you will twist what is being said and, and wanting to be the “victim” so bad that you would put your neck on the same block these truly anti-American’s are resting theirs on?

  15. #15
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    Originally posted by aaron_mag
    I believe that the Army's post had to do with French, German, Chinese, etc anti sentiment. Furthermore I am not arguing that the French, German, and Chinese have some anti american sentiment (even the Brits). My point is WHY?

    We have failed to deal with our allies with diplomacy and tact. When I heard that our official had referred to France and Germany as "old Europe" I wanted to smack him. That is neither diplomatic nor tactful and is it wrong to expect such things from our officials?

    They are our allies. We may disagree over things like Iraq but when it comes to the important stuff our ties are strong. Remember 9/11 and the outpouring of support that came to us in the aftermath. In the important stuff they are with us!

    EDIT:

    Shartely was posting while I was typing. Yes shame on me. Shame on me for saying remember 9/11 and the support our allies had for us then. While it was a tragedy the outpouring of support from our allies was a beautiful thing. We should not forget this over disagreements we have now.
    Yes, blame US for how irrational people think of us. WE are the fault. Yes, a few comments that some people may not like is justification for a full out anti-American stance? YES, shame on you.

  16. #16
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    what im saying:
    all those pictures were within the last 5 days. the REAL protests were in mid feb. if you want, ill go dig those up. youll see our "allies" with some strong and startling voices. most of the people in the world are feed up with the US and its foreign polices. Theyd prefer the US go back to its own little cave of isolationism....well...until they are invaded and need our support

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    aaron, we have been using diplomacy to a great extent with our allies.

    Our diplomats, Colin Powell, and the President are speaking with our allies to try to gain their support. Is that not diplomacy?

    The country has held great restraint. We could have easily flipped the switch from SAFE to WAR but we did not. We are waiting on UN resolutions and UN backing. Is that not diplomacy?

    Just think how easily the fury of the military could have been unleashed upon Iraq. But the military has not been given the go-ahead by the prez.

    Amazing how quickly people change from empathy to anger.

    How much more backlash and anti-Americanism would there be if America did not use diplomacy? People too easily find the negative.

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    Re: Seems at least one Brit agrees with me....er us.

    Originally posted by Army But to the world's eternal shame, 9/11 is increasingly seen as America's comeuppance. Incredibly, anti-Americanism has increased over the last year.
    First of all I never claimed to be a "victim". Nor have I claimed that anyone called me anti american. First those pictures posted above are not our allies.

    My point deals with the quote above (not a real direct quote from Army but he did post it). So many citizens of the US are incredulous of the growth in this sentiment among our allies. My point is we are at least partially to blame for the losing good will towards us. You say that people should not claim to be the "victim" I say the US should not claim to be the victim of insensible resentment towards us. In the end they are our allies and they will be with us when it counts.

  19. #19
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    Originally posted by Kevmaster
    what im saying:
    all those pictures were within the last 5 days. the REAL protests were in mid feb. if you want, ill go dig those up. youll see our "allies" with some strong and startling voices. most of the people in the world are feed up with the US and its foreign polices. Theyd prefer the US go back to its own little cave of isolationism....well...until they are invaded and need our support
    hehehehe. "Jebus, I mean America, Save ME!"

    What I don't understand is the anti-war protesters with no respect. Some of them are calling Bush a terrorist. They call war, terrorism. Soldiers terrorists.

    Sure, these soldiers are going to battle in a war they don't support. These are the same soldiers who were in Afghanistan destroying Al Qaeda. Why are they calling them terrorists?

    What is with the populous of our allies calling this war, blood for oil?

    Just last week on the local news, they did a story about teach-ins and walk-outs at a local University. They showed a clip where a professor was giving factoids. Ill-informed factoids- she asked what two countries had the most oil, Iraq and Saudi Arabia. We don't get much oil from the mid-east. I hate hippy-thinking with the use of confirmation-bias.

    The soldiers are just doing their jobs. They hold no say in where to fight. Why so much hate for them?

    Why do I fear going on vacations even to Europe? Because I am an American, I will receive almost racist treatment. My older sister working in S.Korea says she is from Canada. American soldiers get threatened and spit on over there.

    When I go travel, I'm going to wear an American flag. They may not like me, but they will be happy and friendly enough to take my money when I buy their goods&services. Now isn't that peculiar.

    I'm proud to be an American. Anybody who doesn't like me for that fact is wrong. They should be bombed.

  20. #20
    Collegeboy Guest
    This guy was not writing about anti-Americanism in the Middle East. He was writing about "anti-Americanism" in Europe and other countries.

    "The anti-American alliance is made up of self-loathing liberals who blame the Americans for every ill in the Third World, and conservatives suffering from power-envy, bitter that the world's only superpower can do what it likes without having to ask permission.”

    That clearly states who he is talking about. If you would know how many people in other countries feel about the US, especially talk to people in these countries everyday you would understand what he is pointing to.

    But what he and others fail to point out is that there is a GREAT difference between criticism/disagreement, and plain hatred.

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    Originally posted by Collegeboy
    But what he and others fail to point out is that there is a GREAT difference between criticism/disagreement, and plain hatred.
    Good point, but is burning effigies and calling our leaders and soldiers terrorists being critical? It's pretty mean to me.

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    collegeboy...you wnat me to get pictures that are just as bad but insted of showing muslims they show french? germans? italians? british? AMERICANS?

    i will go do it if you wish

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    CollegeBoy *shakes head*

    Originally posted by Collegeboy
    I agree.

    A lot of people confuse a disagreement, a criticism, with anti-Americanism. Heck I have been called an anti-American for I am against this war. I am also a huge goober!

    Am I saying that there is no one out there who hates us, no 911 proves that. But to say that everyone who disagrees with us, or the majority who disagree with us is anti-US is just plain wrong.
    We all respect the right of dissent.

    That being said, you a 100% wrong. Their are plenty of people who hate the US. Did you see the videos of Palestinians celebrating 9/11? They were giving candy to children to celebrate. We should have cut all aid to the Paletinians at that point. Let them starve or let their arabian "brethern" feed them.

    I think Kev's pictures are kind of Anti-American don't you?

  24. #24
    Collegeboy Guest
    Originally posted by nippinout


    Good point, but is burning effigies and calling our leaders and soldiers terrorists being critical? It's pretty mean to me.
    It is mean, I never said there wasn't people out there who hated the US. There are people like that in EVERY country. I am not arguing against that. I am just saying that most of the people said to be anti-american are not.

    They may be anti-bush, anti-war, or whatever, but are not anti-american.

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    Wrong

    Originally posted by aaron_mag
    Sorry....I have to be the voice of disharmony (as 1stdeadeye is sure to predict). Because I am a goof!

    On this board there are a ton of anti French jokes. Is respect not a two way street?

    Hey now! I resent this. I have been making French Jokes for years. The only nationality I pick on more then the French are the Poles.

  26. #26
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  27. #27
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    well...

    right now being anti-bush (in the sense of burning him) is being anti-american

  28. #28
    Collegeboy Guest
    It is how you interpret it. I am anti-bush. I don't think he has done anything to help this country that any to bit man on the street could have done. That doesn't mean I am anti-American. If you are holding up a doll of bush and is using it to represent America then yes that is anti-Americanism, but if you hold up a doll to represent Bush, then it is anti-bush.

    But you are missing my points. Those pictures show a minority of the criticism of the US. It is like me showing a picture of the US woman's hockey team stomping of the Canadian flag (And yes they did), and using it to show that everyone hates Canada that has a disagreement with it.

    But the article was dealing with Europeans and such, not middle eastern peoples.


    I once heard a presentation on TV one night where I college student got up and gave a speech on the demonstrations in Palestine on 911. She basically said it didn't happen. But the footage used was actually old b roll that happened about 5 months earlier. She was there working with some relief organization in the area it supposedly happened in.

    If this is true, it leads to questions of other things we "know" today.

  29. #29
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    Originally posted by Collegeboy
    It is how you interpret it. I am anti-bush. I don't think he has done anything to help this country that any to bit man on the street could have done. That doesn't mean I am anti-American. If you are holding up a doll of bush and is using it to represent America then yes that is anti-Americanism, but if you hold up a doll to represent Bush, then it is anti-bush.

    But you are missing my points. Those pictures show a minority of the criticism of the US. It is like me showing a picture of the US woman's hockey team stomping of the Canadian flag (And yes they did), and using it to show that everyone hates Canada that has a disagreement with it.
    This is so wrong. A sitting President is the Figure Head of our country. And if you think it is okay to burn a doll of him, than you don’t understand what it is to BE President. The President is NOT just “some guy”, he is for all intensive purposes “The United States”. If that was not so, it would not matter what the President says or does, because it isn’t “the United States” right? Your own points backfire on you.

    And if you don’t think Bush has done anything the average person couldn’t have done you are showing gross ignorance.
    Originally posted by Collegeboy
    But the article was dealing with Europeans and such, not middle eastern peoples.
    And we have seen footage of protesters in THOSE countries holding similar signs and doing similar things.
    Originally posted by Collegeboy
    I once heard a presentation on TV one night where I college student got up and gave a speech on the demonstrations in Palestine on 911. She basically said it didn't happen. But the footage used was actually old b roll that happened about 5 months earlier. She was there working with some relief organization in the area it supposedly happened in.

    If this is true, it leads to questions of other things we "know" today.
    Of course you would bring up that crap. And you would use it KNOWING it is total BS just to bring up more of your “what if”s. Guess what, there are people who claim that we never walked on the moon either, and don’t really have a space program. Maybe we don’t!?!?!? Oh my!!!!!!!!

    Maybe the earth isn’t really round either. OH NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    You have just shattered my world, because of the big “IF” word you keep tossing around my life is worthless and I think I will just kill myself…. I don’t have any reasons to live. Hey, what IF I am not really alive anyways? What IF I am not really reading all this or posting it? What IF…………….

    Bah…. You are sure a piece of work………..

  30. #30
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    Originally posted by shartley
    Bah…. You are sure a piece of work………..
    That nailed it. Based on what we have learned from some other threads he has some very strange opinions about Saddam, America, and women's rights.

    I'm glad America is strong enough that people like Collegeboy can't get enough support to actually do anything.

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