IRAQ THREAD originaly "Seems at least one Brit agrees with me....er us."

[1stdeadeye]

Originally posted by Collegeboy
Shartley and 1st deadeye you all are wrong. What does it matter where the US gets its oil from now? It is hampered by OPEC. Do you think that given the chance the US would kill (notice the word kill) to have a huge oil reserve in which Opec doesn't control. Or better yet to have an oil reserve in which the US controlled. Come on I thought you were smarter then that.

Your arguement has no basis in fact. If this was the case, why did we not force Kuwait to abandon OPEC? Kuwait has huge oil reserves (that was why Iraq invaded them in the 1st place). You can not cite an example of this can you? I can disprove your arguement with Kuwait!! Besides if we want huge reserves that we can control, we can always drill in ANWR! Want to compare IQs?


My arguments are hinged on what will happen because we are talking about what will happen and what are the reasons to go to war.

The US couldn't care less about the Iraqi citizens, they are in no worse shape (even better shape) then Saudi Arabia’s citizens (and guess what they are our allies). So please don't spout that humanity propaganda. THIS WAR IS NOT ABOUT THE IRAQI PEOPLE.

You are right about it not being about the Iraqi people. It is about security. Stop the threat before it becomes unstoppable. Stop Iraq before it can grow into a North Korea type problem. You can't just run roughshod over NK because they have WMD. Stop Iraq before they rise to that threat level pure and simple!

The reason for caring that the Iraqi people are behind this is also simple. If they are for liberation, then we won't have a Viet Cong type guerrilla warfare problem.

As for the Iraqi citizen being better off then the Saudi citizen you are way off base. If Saudia Arabia treated their dissidents like Saddam, we wouldn't be in this war on terror. The Saudis would have simply killed Osama Bin Laden for his anti-monarchy dissent instead of exiling him. The Saudis also don't torture their National Soccer Team for losing a game. Apples and Oranges my friend!

[Hasty8]

Collegeboy -

Description of a Useful Idiot

1stDeadeye
When you have a set of facts that is verified by two or moreINDEPENDANT and reputable organizations(here CNN, MSNBC, FOX NEWS, and AL-Jezera) then they are facts, not opinions or conspiracies.

Not entirely true. You can have soemthing that is supported and agreed upon and verified by thousands of people and it is still not a fact.

Just a few debunked facts -
The earth is the center of the universe.
The earth is flat.
The sound barrier could never be broken.

These are just a few facts that were proved to be untrue and there are even bigger ones than these.

[aaron_mag]

Originally posted by Hasty8
I was merely trying to explain how those extremists see a lot of the problems they face as being Americas fault.

I'm not an extremist! I believe in truth, justice, the american way, and that aliens have been visiting this planet for years and their bodies are at Area 51. See. Perfectly normal individual

As for your comment on America's stance of "Your either with us or against us" is a posture we should of taken a long time ago. What really rubs my rhubarb is that France and Germany both decided that they did not have to uphold their NATO agreement and defend Turkey simply because they do not approve of the war.

As some may remember Turkey, the only NATO country that shares a border with IRaq was at first more than agreeable to allow us to use their bases as staging points with the caveat that other European NATO partners defended them should they garner any backlash because of the war. FRANDE AND GERMANY REFUSED!!!! That is totally unacceptable and I am horrified and dismayed that they have not been forcibly ejected from NATO because of that. What good is the alliance when you can pick and choose when and how you will defend other members of that alliance. I think it is issues like that where the mindset of "You are either a part of the problem or the solution" is warranted.

Both said they would defend Turkey if Iraq was threatening them. The majority of the population in Turkey is against the war. The government there really wants the foriegn aid so they are walking the tight rope between their people and the US. Turkey does not even feel threatened enough to support us in the UN. We obviously disagree on the posture the US should take with its allies. I won't argue with you there.

A lot of people are saying right now "What right gives America the power to say who is bad and who is good?" As far as I am concerned it's our billions upon billions of dollars donated to foerign aid. It's also the fact that no one else is willing to do it. Another point is that we are just cleaning up our own mess. But what can you expect. We get blamed for making the mess and we get blamed for cleaning it up.

I won't argue with you that the US has a right to look after our billions of foriegn aid. I won't argue that they should not protect their interests around the world. I still think that our best interests, however, are to show that we are willing to work with other nations and compromise. This is going to be especially true with N. Korea. It would be nice if we could form a strong coalition with China, Russia, S. Korea, and Japan during negotiations with N. Korea.

EDIT: Although as I stated in my previous post the time for compromise may be over. It has turned into a "who is in control of NATO issue."

[Collegeboy]

Originally posted by 1stdeadeye
Originally posted by Collegeboy
Shartley and 1st deadeye you all are wrong. What does it matter where the US gets its oil from now? It is hampered by OPEC. Do you think that given the chance the US would kill (notice the word kill) to have a huge oil reserve in which Opec doesn't control. Or better yet to have an oil reserve in which the US controlled. Come on I thought you were smarter then that.

Your arguement has no basis in fact. If this was the case, why did we not force Kuwait to abandon OPEC? Kuwait has huge oil reserves (that was why Iraq invaded them in the 1st place). You can not cite an example of this can you? I can disprove your arguement with Kuwait!! Besides if we want huge reserves that we can control, we can always drill in ANWR! Want to compare IQs?


My arguments are hinged on what will happen because we are talking about what will happen and what are the reasons to go to war.

The US couldn't care less about the Iraqi citizens, they are in no worse shape (even better shape) then Saudi Arabia’s citizens (and guess what they are our allies). So please don't spout that humanity propaganda. THIS WAR IS NOT ABOUT THE IRAQI PEOPLE.

You are right about it not being about the Iraqi people. It is about security. Stop the threat before it becomes unstoppable. Stop Iraq before it can grow into a North Korea type problem. You can't just run roughshod over NK because they have WMD. Stop Iraq before they rise to that threat level pure and simple!

The reason for caring that the Iraqi people are behind this is also simple. If they are for liberation, then we won't have a Viet Cong type guerrilla warfare problem.

As for the Iraqi citizen being better off then the Saudi citizen you are way off base. If Saudia Arabia treated their dissidents like Saddam, we wouldn't be in this war on terror. The Saudis would have simply killed Osama Bin Laden for his anti-monarchy dissent instead of exiling him. The Saudis also don't torture their National Soccer Team for losing a game. Apples and Oranges my friend!

1st Deadeye, did we go into Kuwait and over throw their government. No, we went in their to liberate their country and to restore the rule to the original leadership or to someone in line to be leader. You can't compare Iraq and Kuwait, too WAY different situations. Talk about apples and oranges.

Where did the most terrorist come from, yeah that is right.

Kind of funny before the Iran invasion and the sanctions and such. Iranians had loads of freedoms, and still do, that other Arabian countries don't have. Woman have more rights in Iraq then in most Arabian countries. So what is they have some draconian laws, other countries like Saudi Arabia has them at their base.

[shartley]

LOL I think he was talking about the OIL involved, not the whole reason for going in. LOL But go ahead, you have done it time and again… change the criteria of argument as soon as you get stuck in a corner.

And you have shown that you really don’t know how the Oil situation works. And I guess telling you that the REAL reasons we have seen a spike in oil prices now has more to do with what happened in South America than it does with the impending war in Iraq, and even without the Iraq situation we would have most likely seen a rise in prices anyways…. although the second one makes better headlines.

For me, this thread has ended… it has far passed any rational argument or point of brining up any new points worth even commenting on. Have fun “debating” things.. I will sit back and support my president and our troops and let those who feel inclined to, battle it out on a forum that changes nothing. LOL The point is past arguing whether we “should” or “should not” go to war. The only issue now is if you will stand behind your men and women in uniform and show a united front for the world.

In MY opinion you can dislike Bush all you want, but if you keep bashing him during this time of national need, you are selfish. He is our president, and how YOU can speak your mind on this matter is the next time you VOTE. That or contact your Congressmen/women and Senators. After all, if you think the President is the ONLY person who decides whether we go to war or not you are fooling yourself. The President can mobilize our troops, but for all out war, he needs a bit more support.

Oh… but BUSH is the problem right!?!?!? LOL He rules as a KING!!!!! LOL Not.

[Collegeboy]

Originally posted by shartley
LOL I think he was talking about the OIL involved, not the whole reason for going in. LOL But go ahead, you have done it time and again… change the criteria of argument as soon as you get stuck in a corner.

And you have shown that you really don’t know how the Oil situation works. And I guess telling you that the REAL reasons we have seen a spike in oil prices now has more to do with what happened in South America than it does with the impending war in Iraq, and even without the Iraq situation we would have most likely seen a rise in prices anyways…. although the second one makes better headlines.

For me, this thread has ended… it has far passed any rational argument or point of brining up any new points worth even commenting on. Have fun “debating” things.. I will sit back and support my president and our troops and let those who feel inclined to, battle it out on a forum that changes nothing. LOL The point is past arguing whether we “should” or “should not” go to war. The only issue now is if you will stand behind your men and women in uniform and show a united front for the world.

In MY opinion you can dislike Bush all you want, but if you keep bashing him during this time of national need, you are selfish. He is our president, and how YOU can speak your mind on this matter is the next time you VOTE. That or contact your Congressmen/women and Senators. After all, if you think the President is the ONLY person who decides whether we go to war or not you are fooling yourself. The President can mobilize our troops, but for all out war, he needs a bit more support.

Oh… but BUSH is the problem right!?!?!? LOL He rules as a KING!!!!! LOL Not.

Changing criteria NOT. It is the criteria. And you wanted to square of in a test of inelligence with me.

You always go into this mood, I am right, I am older, I have more experience, you don't know anything, blah blah blah when you have nothing to say. Instead of going into your normal mantra why don't you just not post. We can live another day without your post you know.

[1stdeadeye]

Originally posted by Collegeboy


1st Deadeye, did we go into Kuwait and over throw their government. No, we went in their to liberate their country and to restore the rule to the original leadership or to someone in line to be leader. You can't compare Iraq and Kuwait, too WAY different situations. Talk about apples and oranges.

WRONG!!!
When we put the monarchy back into power, we held complete sway over Kuwait. We still wield an incredible amount of influence there. If the US asked them to dump OPEC, you don't think they wouldn't? Who is not being realistic now?
We could have but did not, so why would we force OPEC out in Iraq, but not Kuwait?

You're not making sense.

As for Sam, you may have ticked him off with your"Nobody has proven me wrong yet attitude"! Yes, we have! For one how about the 2000 persons killed in an Apartment Bombing claim you made! How about the UN resolutions setting Israels occupation as illegal? On the last page ShooterJM showed that as it was never adopted, it isn't in effect. I have to run but I'll post more examples later!

[shartley]

Originally posted by Collegeboy


Changing criteria NOT. It is the criteria. And you wanted to square of in a test of inelligence with me.

You always go into this mood, I am right, I am older, I have more experience, you don't know anything, blah blah blah when you have nothing to say. Instead of going into your normal mantra why don't you just not post. We can live another day without your post you know.

Being this is not about the topic but ONLY about me… LOLROF Want to run to Daddy now? Did I somehow strike a sore spot with you?

Square off in a test of intelligence? LOL I never said you were NOT intelligent. But I would hate to see your alphabet, I am sure it would have all the right letters, but they would not be in the same ORDER the rest of us have ours in. LOL And when someone tries to point that out you would cry, “But there is too a letter Q, and it does come someplace around the letter S! And IF someone else had written the alphabet first we would probably have half as many letters!”

Sorry if I hurt your feelings, or if I make you feel like a child. After all, I really have nothing to say…..

LOLROF Oh my... my side hurts.....

[MarkM]

Without having to fill an entire page with quotes (this thread is growing just a bit, but I have only posted the twice (now three times) 1st quoting ILBC (think that was right)...no reply and then secondly I quote Shartly...no reply or rebuff...and then a page later it is said that Shartley doesn't read the posts of others...the opinions of all concerned with the original subject of this thread are on both sides and some are argueing very strongly for their views..though a quote from college boy saying that he always wins arguements with grad students just shows how small minded he is in his opinion that he must be right as he wins arguemwnts with others...strange. All posts (within reason) have merit within this thread so at least have the courtesy to reply wether you agree or not.

I do have to say that given the criteria of the forum rules that this thread has gone on as long as it has..and now it is a classic thread amazes me. Bigots and fools exist in all cultures, uneducated and psuedo educated also exist in those same cultures but beating each other over the head with words isn't going to help nor turn their views. This isn't intended as a flame on anyone just an observation of the lack of respect for your fellow man from both sides of the fence. BTW I am entirely on the fence in so far as there are rights and wrongs and hidden agendas in the current situation and no amount of retoric is going to stop what is about to happen.

[Collegeboy]

Originally posted by shartley

Being this is not about the topic but ONLY about me… LOLROF Want to run to Daddy now? Did I somehow strike a sore spot with you?

Square off in a test of intelligence? LOL I never said you were NOT intelligent. But I would hate to see your alphabet, I am sure it would have all the right letters, but they would not be in the same ORDER the rest of us have ours in. LOL And when someone tries to point that out you would cry, “But there is too a letter Q, and it does come someplace around the letter S! And IF someone else had written the alphabet first we would probably have half as many letters!”

Sorry if I hurt your feelings, or if I make you feel like a child. After all, I really have nothing to say…..

LOLROF Oh my... my side hurts.....

You haven't hit a sore spot, I just get tired of your nonsense post you make every now and again.

And no 1stdeadeye, the US had some control over Kuwait but more or less it was UN control. The US couldn't do anything to Kuwait. And when someone proves my statements to be incorrect I admit to it, see the 2,000 number. But nothing else has been proven wrong. The UN has as Israel official boarders the partition plan of 1948. Anything over that is in direct conflict with that and is illegal.

[shartley]

Originally posted by MarkM
Without having to fill an entire page with quotes (this thread is growing just a bit, but I have only posted the twice (now three times) 1st quoting ILBC (think that was right)...no reply and then secondly I quote Shartly...no reply or rebuff...and then a page later it is said that Shartley doesn't read the posts of others...the opinions of all concerned with the original subject of this thread are on both sides and some are argueing very strongly for their views..though a quote from college boy saying that he always wins arguements with grad students just shows how small minded he is in his opinion that he must be right as he wins arguemwnts with others...strange. All posts (within reason) have merit within this thread so at least have the courtesy to reply wether you agree or not.

I do have to say that given the criteria of the forum rules that this thread has gone on as long as it has..and now it is a classic thread amazes me. Bigots and fools exist in all cultures, uneducated and psuedo educated also exist in those same cultures but beating each other over the head with words isn't going to help nor turn their views. This isn't intended as a flame on anyone just an observation of the lack of respect for your fellow man from both sides of the fence. BTW I am entirely on the fence in so far as there are rights and wrongs and hidden agendas in the current situation and no amount of retoric is going to stop what is about to happen.

Okay…. So you don’t feel left out (although that is probably the BEST position to be in at this point… LOL), you bring up some very valid points.

But………… The “Nah Nah Nah Nah Nah Nah”, and “I know you are, but what am I?” arguments and rebuttals are SO much fun. And when the “sticks and stones may break my bones” come into play it really gets interesting. And even more valid are the sticking your fingers in your ears and yelling “La la la la la la la la la la” while closing your eyes REALLY REALLY tight to win an argument. And no matter how much pseudo-intellectual babble is tossed into this thread, it always seems to come down to that…. just in fancy wrappings.

I can not see any real point in this thread continuing. As you point out, nothing said here will stop what is indeed going to happen. It only makes bad feelings toward fellow Americans when we should be focusing on the REAL problem, and that is why we have to even THINK about doing anything with Iraq… and that is because of what Saddam has DONE and NOT done. But for some it is easier to blame the reaction than it is to blame the CAUSE.

[Collegeboy]

Originally posted by MarkM
Without having to fill an entire page with quotes (this thread is growing just a bit, but I have only posted the twice (now three times) 1st quoting ILBC (think that was right)...no reply and then secondly I quote Shartly...no reply or rebuff...and then a page later it is said that Shartley doesn't read the posts of others...the opinions of all concerned with the original subject of this thread are on both sides and some are argueing very strongly for their views..though a quote from college boy saying that he always wins arguements with grad students just shows how small minded he is in his opinion that he must be right as he wins arguemwnts with others...strange. All posts (within reason) have merit within this thread so at least have the courtesy to reply wether you agree or not.

I do have to say that given the criteria of the forum rules that this thread has gone on as long as it has..and now it is a classic thread amazes me. Bigots and fools exist in all cultures, uneducated and psuedo educated also exist in those same cultures but beating each other over the head with words isn't going to help nor turn their views. This isn't intended as a flame on anyone just an observation of the lack of respect for your fellow man from both sides of the fence. BTW I am entirely on the fence in so far as there are rights and wrongs and hidden agendas in the current situation and no amount of retoric is going to stop what is about to happen.

Where did I say that since I always win arguments with grad students means I am always right? I never said I was always right. I have said (AT THAT TIME) I wasn't proven wrong. Since then I found one of my numbers was off, big time, so I said I was wrong and changed it.

[1stdeadeye]

Originally posted by Collegeboy


And no 1stdeadeye, the US had some control over Kuwait but more or less it was UN control. The US couldn't do anything to Kuwait. And when someone proves my statements to be incorrect I admit to it, see the 2,000 number. But nothing else has been proven wrong. The UN has as Israel official boarders the partition plan of 1948. Anything over that is in direct conflict with that and is illegal.

What? The U.S. ran the entire show! We provided the bulk of the forces. Other then the British, who else had more then a token force there? It was NEVER under UN control! It had UN blessings, not control! Please it is a very relavent comparrison. Kuwait still does pretty much everything the US asks of them. So much so that the Iraqis called the Kuwaiti Envoy to the Arab summit and American Lap Dog. You must concede this point. Further, if the US were to force IRAQ out of OPEC, it would cause a huge rift with our Saudi Arabian allies. No administration would do something that fool hardy. You stated your opinion, I have stated what I believe to be a much stronger counterpoint.

The plan in 1948 was never approved! It is a plan only! ShooterJM outlined it very clearly. If a law is proposed, it is not a law unless it passes, pretty simple! So then you are wrong.

[1stdeadeye]

Originally posted by MarkM
Without having to fill an entire page with quotes (this thread is growing just a bit, but I have only posted the twice (now three times) 1st quoting ILBC (think that was right)...no reply and then secondly I quote Shartly...no reply or rebuff...and then a page later it is said that Shartley doesn't read the posts of others...the opinions of all concerned with the original subject of this thread are on both sides and some are argueing very strongly for their views..though a quote from college boy saying that he always wins arguements with grad students just shows how small minded he is in his opinion that he must be right as he wins arguemwnts with others...strange. All posts (within reason) have merit within this thread so at least have the courtesy to reply wether you agree or not.

I do have to say that given the criteria of the forum rules that this thread has gone on as long as it has..and now it is a classic thread amazes me. Bigots and fools exist in all cultures, uneducated and psuedo educated also exist in those same cultures but beating each other over the head with words isn't going to help nor turn their views. This isn't intended as a flame on anyone just an observation of the lack of respect for your fellow man from both sides of the fence. BTW I am entirely on the fence in so far as there are rights and wrongs and hidden agendas in the current situation and no amount of retoric is going to stop what is about to happen.

Uh-oh! Armegeddon! SHartley, CollegeBoy and I agree on something in the same thread.

MarkM,
Please read the moderators comments. They have stated they will allow this debat as long as it does not devolve into a flame fest. I would like to think that the 3 of us have had fun debating each other without flaming. Sure some people have called others names here, but not I. Please read my posts. I try to be concise and logical. Please do not impugn us as I feel we are all arguing from the heart. Although I do not agree with Collegeboy, I do not feel he is disingenuos with his agrument!

What is ILBC? Where did you quote me with me responding? You quoted Loan Brain Cell and SHartley, not Me. I try to be polite and respond when I can?

[aaron_mag]

MarkM-

Actually what always happens is that a thread gets posted and Shartley, Collegeboy, 1stdeadeye, and myself argue it to death. Then we get to a point where we give up trying to convince each other (which is probably for the best as I will AGREE with the rest).

Then someone else starts a new post on the subject. Invariably it is NEVER Shartley, Collegeboy, 1stdeadeye, or myself and starts the whole debate all over again. I typically get drawn in by "blind patriotism/support the president no matter your own personal beliefs" comments. It must be my personal pet peeve.

[Collegeboy]

.Here is the back ground to it. As you can see the UN partition Plan was adopted by the UN. The Palestinians didn't agree to it as you will see. Turns out it is 1947 not 48.

http://www.mideastweb.org/181.htm (pretty nonbiased for its name)

Now to Kuwait. The US was part of a multinational government to restore power to Kuwait and to take it back from the Iraqis. The US went in to reestablish he government before the Iraqi occupation. So they could not internationally force Kuwait around to resign out of Kuwait. For they did not go in and establish like minded thinkers.

Now when you go into a country and establish a new government. You will of course make sure the new rulers are like minded to you. Now since that, Iraq could back out of OPEC for the reason for trying to control their oil sales. It would be fishy, but none the less they can get away with it.

Kuwait and Iraqi situations are two entirely different things

[cphilip]

http://www.nysun.com/sunarticle.asp?artID=608

[cphilip]

Remember another time we didn't want to get involved and ignored stuff?

http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/allied.htm

http://www.fas.org/irp/news/2000/06/...lass-usia1.htm

Your reading assignments for the night!

Isolationism back in "the day". We realy didn't want to get into that one either.

[MarkM]

OK ILBC was meant as 1 Lone Brain Cell, did put the brackets saying "think that was right?

I have and did read the moderators comments...my comment was made that this entire thread is in the no no's list as one that will incite flames...I didn't make that up, it's for all to see in the rules..

College Boy reread your own posts...enough people seem to ask you to do that often enough so don't feel put out that someone new (to these type of threads ) has asked.

aaron_mag didn't quote you, just agreed about your pointing out the lack of response to a question you asked.

Shartley you may have been right about not attracting the attention 'cos with the best will in the world all three of you aren't agreeing with what I have said per se (in the previous post I mean). I may have stirred the nest a little but that is all. Anyway all night meeting tonight at the UN to discuss final resolution and its possible implications

[MarkM]

Originally posted by Collegeboy


That is what I do, cphillip. I study history from both sides, that is how I get the knowledge I get. I don't know how it is at Clemson, but my teachers NEVER tell me what to think or how to think. The teach us to be historians. How to be able to read a book and weigh its view points against all others that you know. And then make a judgment on is it crap or is it truth. They tells us facts (this happened on this day, and that on that, this happened and so forth), we then discuss the reasons and implementations with each other. The teacher normally only chimes in when we say the incorrect thing. Like this year, well it was actually this year, and so forth. I have a daily disagreement with one of my history teachers (who wrote the book that the movie Armistead was based on, as well as many other books dealing with US foreign policy). Everyday we both chime in with our opinions (He is one who will chime in with his opinions). Even though this guy is a PHD and knows a lot more then I do, I still can disagree with him. I normally shut down (meaning out argue) the grad students in the class too. And he appreciates that. That is what makes a historian a historian.

I get tired of everyone counting me as some sponge that soaks up everything people tells them and spits it out as truth. That is very insulting. My opinions I have gained not through others opinions, if it would have you all would have changed my opinions by now, but rather through my own research and such.

And to get back to the discussion. With US planes flying over head protecting the northern fly zone and the Kurds. Do you think that Saddam will be able to get his troops near the Kurdish villages without something happening?

aaron_mag: I am a history, economics, and Russian major with a minor probably in Poly sci (since I have to have that many classes any ways), what does that make me.

College Boy, just in case you had forgotten where you said it Oh and I left the entire post to be fair and so you can't argue that I took your comment out of context. (I'm sure you will but then I did start my post that started this flurry of posts I started it by saying I wasn't going to fill a page with quotes)

[Collegeboy]

Originally posted by cphilip
Remember another time we didn't want to get involved and ignored stuff?

http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/allied.htm

http://www.fas.org/irp/news/2000/06/...lass-usia1.htm

Your reading assignments for the night!

Isolationism back in "the day". We realy didn't want to get into that one either.

You can not compare Hitler and Nazi Germany with Saddam and his government. They are two polar opposites of each other. I can go back and use Hitler to back any claim I want to. The matter is well this war do anything? My answer has always been no. NO government in Iraq that is put in power by the US will last long, look into Iran. The government will be overthrown and a pro terrorist, fundamentalist government will be installed. etc..........

[Collegeboy]

Originally posted by MarkM


College Boy, just in case you had forgotten where you said it Oh and I left the entire post to be fair and so you can't argue that I took your comment out of context. (I'm sure you will but then I did start my post that started this flurry of posts I started it by saying I wasn't going to fill a page with quotes)

And how did you get that I said that since I out argue grad students that makes me know it all?

[MarkM]

Hey first cast and I get a bite

CB just think about it..you're a seasoned debater you really need me to explain inference and intent?

[shartley]

Originally posted by Collegeboy


You can not compare Hitler and Nazi Germany with Saddam and his government. They are two polar opposites of each other. I can go back and use Hitler to back any claim I want to. The matter is well this war do anything? My answer has always been no. NO government in Iraq that is put in power by the US will last long, look into Iran. The government will be overthrown and a pro terrorist, fundamentalist government will be installed. etc..........

Must be nice to know it all... and to know the future... without any doubts. Too bad you are not running a darn thing. Or those who ARE don't seem to value your input and expertise. Or you would not have time to post here. LOL

[Collegeboy]

But when it happens remember what I said. When Americna boys are back in 10 years, remeber what I said. Ok.

And MarkM

I know what I wrote, I know what I said, and I still have no clue what you are talking about.

[FactsOfLife]

Originally posted by Collegeboy


You can not compare Hitler and Nazi Germany with Saddam and his government. They are two polar opposites of each other. I can go back and use Hitler to back any claim I want to. The matter is well this war do anything? My answer has always been no. NO government in Iraq that is put in power by the US will last long, look into Iran. The government will be overthrown and a pro terrorist, fundamentalist government will be installed. etc..........

Useful Idiot, Baloney. The government that will be put in place is going to be made up of Iraqis.

And as for the downfall of the Iranian government to the militant islamists, you can thank Jimmy Carter for that blunder. But then, you probably wouldn't want to show one of your own kind as being responsible for anything right?

It's painfully obvious you get your history out of school books. And you wonder why people bring up age as a qualification of knowledge?

It's because you haven't LIVED LONG ENOUGH yet to know anything.

[shartley]

Originally posted by Collegeboy
But when it happens remember what I said. When Americna boys are back in 10 years, remeber what I said. Ok.

And MarkM

I know what I wrote, I know what I said, and I still have no clue what you are talking about.

LOL MarkM hit the nail on the head, but I guess if you don't have a clue, you are not as smart as you profess yourself to be.

And "remember what I said when it happens" is a weak and groundless argument. Sorry. Predictions can be had off the back of a cereal box or from a phone psychic. You can’t “win” an argument by saying “wait and see!”.

And here are some other points to ponder….

Arguing in itself does not make one intelligent, no matter how intelligent the argument presented may seem.

Arguing in itself does not make one wise, no matter how wise the person thinks they are.

Arguing in itself does not make one right, no matter how positive the person is about their arguments.

Being the last one remaining in an argument does not in itself make someone the winner.

Arguing for the sake of arguing does however, make one a fool, no matter how intelligent the individual is. It is one thing to seek knowledge and truth, it is quite another to think everyone but yourself is wrong or seeing things other than the way they really are…. all of the time. Chances are that if 100 people see something as black, and you see it as white, you are wrong. Yes, there is that chance that you ARE right, but it will not happen very often and NEVER all the time.

One minute of personal experience is worth more than 10 years of reading about something.

And far too often the saying “Truth is how we perceive it to be.” holds true. One man’s truth may be totally different than the next man’s truth, but many times they can BOTH be correct. And often times things that are the same, can be worlds apart…. Black and White are both COLORS, and thus are the same… or are they?

I also like the saying… “When I was young, I thought I was blazing a trail. And then one day I looked down and saw that where I was walking was already a well beaten path.”

Some people like to question for the sake of expanding their minds, while others like to question just so they can argue. CollegeBoy, you are the latter of the two. You seem to think that if you are the last one arguing, that you have won or you are right, and somehow superior to those who you were arguing with. Sorry, but that is not true.

[ShooterJM]

Originally posted by Collegeboy
.Here is the back ground to it. As you can see the UN partition Plan was adopted by the UN. The Palestinians didn't agree to it as you will see. Turns out it is 1947 not 48.

I was beginning to think nobody had read my post.

Eh '47 '48 no big deal, a lot of people refer to it as '48 for some reason. Probably because that was the main thrust of the implementation period. You're very close, but semantics play a huge part in this (witness the arguments over the choice of the word "some" over "the" in UN 242 and 338).

It was the Arab rejection of Resolution 181 that prevented adoption of the recommendation which the Resolution contained. The United Nations abandoned the proposal contained in Resolution 181. In its place, the Security Council adopted Resolutions 242 and 338 which provided a substantially different means for the settlement.

Resolution 181 has never been part of the agreed foundation for the peace process between Israel and the Palestinians. The letters of invitation to the Madrid Peace Conference in 91 (92?) say the same thing.

Also, the Arab states and the Palestinians for decades have claimed that Resolution 181 is null and void. Article 19 of the Palestinian National Covenant declars that UN 181 and Israel as a whole are illegal.

Basically the only people who still think it's legal are most of the non arab populace.

Also note in my previous post where I outlined International law governing the liberation of illegaly occupied territories. Remember that there is no soverign palestinian state.

EDIT: Man, I used the word "indeed" in sentence. Had to change it......it was WAY to high on the dork scale.

[Collegeboy]

Originally posted by FactsOfLife


Useful Idiot, Baloney. The government that will be put in place is going to be made up of Iraqis.

And as for the downfall of the Iranian government to the militant islamists, you can thank Jimmy Carter for that blunder. But then, you probably wouldn't want to show one of your own kind as being responsible for anything right?

It's painfully obvious you get your history out of school books. And you wonder why people bring up age as a qualification of knowledge?

It's because you haven't LIVED LONG ENOUGH yet to know anything.

The government could be made up of monkeys and nothing will change. Any government put into power after a US lead invasion in which was not the original power will be thought of has a puppet of the US government, or a extremely good friend of the US. Even if in the slightest of causes the US actually allows a fair election, that still will not matter. It will still be conceived as a pro US government. Which means the second US troops step out, bye bye government. Hello terrorist supporting, fundamentalist, general pain in the read end government. Hello to a new war. etc......

Carter isn't my own kind. I am not a democrat.

No Sharltey you couldn't be more wrong. Does it surprise you that your "logic" hasn't won me over. Maybe it isn't me, maybe it is you. Your own post could describe you. I don't like to argue and shy away from it a lot of times. But I do like to discuss. But these discussions always turns into arguments. Why? People don't like change. They don't like to be asked to look at it in a different way; they don't like to be asked to look at it on both sides of the coin.

I never said I was intelligent, I never said I was smart. In fact I have said that I don't know anything when it comes to this world, and in fact no one knows anything. Experience is good when it is not tainted. You used your example of you being stationed in a foreign country and the "hatred" you received to say that people in other countries hate the US. Well Duh. But you fail to point out that you were a military member, a foreign military member. IN a foreign country. A lot of foreigners hate that US troops are stationed in their country especially after the cold war, even during it, so they have a hatred to US soldiers stationed there, but they do not hate Americans. You used your experience with terrorist to say what makes a terrorist. But you fail to say that you are dealing with already brainwashed zealots who are already a terrorist. But you haven't dealt with that little kid walking down the street in Palestine who in 10 years might become a terrorist. Since the argument of what makes a terrorist, your experience with preformed terrorist prejudices your outlook. (I made the above formed conclusions based on your statements that you dealt with terrorist, and that your were stationed oversees).

And what has MarkM pointed out, that he can misread a statement?

This is my last statement for tonight, I need to go and read a book for class tomorrow and am already on my third cup of coffee since 8. So i bid you all farewell for tonight. Don't bash me too bad.

[1stdeadeye]

Originally posted by Collegeboy
.Here is the back ground to it. As you can see the UN partition Plan was adopted by the UN. The Palestinians didn't agree to it as you will see. Turns out it is 1947 not 48.

http://www.mideastweb.org/181.htm (pretty nonbiased for its name)

Now to Kuwait. The US was part of a multinational government to restore power to Kuwait and to take it back from the Iraqis. The US went in to reestablish he government before the Iraqi occupation. So they could not internationally force Kuwait around to resign out of Kuwait. For they did not go in and establish like minded thinkers.

Now when you go into a country and establish a new government. You will of course make sure the new rulers are like minded to you. Now since that, Iraq could back out of OPEC for the reason for trying to control their oil sales. It would be fishy, but none the less they can get away with it.

Kuwait and Iraqi situations are two entirely different things

First, Look up at ShooterJM's post! Gotcha there!

Second Kuwait does whatever the US tells them too at this point in time. Multinational force my Aunt Fanny, it was a US operation supported by the British with UN backing. Do not rewrite history. The US formed, and led the forces that liberated Kuwait and restored the government who is deeply indebted to us for this service. Had George Bush (sr.) asked Kuwait to pull out of Opec in 1992 do you think they would have refused?

As for establishing like minded rulers, you are wrong. In Afghanistan, we helped set up a framework and then turned it over to them to form a government. Will it work, who knows. It is definitely not a puppet regime. Why would the US handle IRAQ differently. You are not giving examples to support your claims while I am. Interesting!
Try to use examples after 1960 if you can find them. (Vietnam doesn't dount because we never set up that government. The French did! )