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"Now you are calling one of the biggest capitalists of our time a border line traitor? Come off it. I said he was biased but America is made up of people with divergent views. Calling people traitors, unamerican, unpatriotic, etc because of divergent views is no way to inspire intelligent dialogue."
Hanoi Jane is a traitor, he married her, and defended her to the public. Is aiding a traitor treason in and of itself? I don't know, thus he's a borderline traitor.
Still around????
France is supposed to be our ally! Why would they feed any information to the Iraqis? If any intelligence they fed to Iraq cost even a single American life, then we should hold France responsible.Originally posted by Collegeboy
It is a common diplomatic tactic used to try and avoid war. Or get it over with soon.
Why do you think the Israelis blew up the U.S. Liberty? The US was using it to give information to both sides of the battle in an attempt to lessen the dead and to bring the war to an end soon enough.
If you are trying to say that the French would give information to Saddam so that he can beat the US, then I am sorry, you have lost all common sense. Let’s think before we post please.
Obviously the French knew that we would win the war. If their aid added to the casualties, then France must pay!
This is why the French are evil. They are gutless cowards.
The links between France and Saddam and also between Saddam and Al-Qeada were found not by Americans, but by international journalists. I am sure CB would say that we planted the info though!
I think we need a petition to invade France. Heck we could probably take them over with a good tourney team. Maybe Dynasty is available!
Israel was our ally why would we feed information to the Arabs.Originally posted by 1stdeadeye
France is supposed to be our ally! Why would they feed any information to the Iraqis? If any intelligence they fed to Iraq cost even a single American life, then we should hold France responsible.
Obviously the French knew that we would win the war. If their aid added to the casualties, then France must pay!
This is why the French are evil. They are gutless cowards.
The links between France and Saddam and also between Saddam and Al-Qeada were found not by Americans, but by international journalists. I am sure CB would say that we planted the info though!
I think we need a petition to invade France. Heck we could probably take them over with a good tourney team. Maybe Dynasty is available!
The reason is it SAVES lives.
Again use logic to the "information" and you will see that it doesn't add up.
The French our gutless cowards, yeah I guess you never learned any history.
AO's Problem Child
we have about 25 french students visiting our school this week. ive never seen so much pit hair
Still around????
Egypt was also our ally!Originally posted by Collegeboy
Israel was our ally why would we feed information to the Arabs.
The reason is it SAVES lives.
Again use logic to the "information" and you will see that it doesn't add up.
The French our gutless cowards, yeah I guess you never learned any history.
The current generation of French are gutless cowards. Their cowardice dishonors the French that helped us win our freedom.
Now as for you CB don't start the history debate again. You know my credentials. I have my degree. You do not yet!
We don't know what the information France gave Saddam was yet. If it endangered American lives, we have a very legitimate gripe with the French.
If the French helped Saddam escape our grasp, we have to hold them accountable!
Then you might as well go throw that degree away for your historical knowledge sucks, to put it bluntly.Originally posted by 1stdeadeye
Egypt was also our ally!
The current generation of French are gutless cowards. Their cowardice dishonors the French that helped us win our freedom.
Now as for you CB don't start the history debate again. You know my credentials. I have my degree. You do not yet!
We don't know what the information France gave Saddam was yet. If it endangered American lives, we have a very legitimate gripe with the French.
If the French helped Saddam escape our grasp, we have to hold them accountable!
The French are not being cowards now, they don't think war will solve the problem. It is called having an opinion.
I guess they can call the US a coward for not helping them against Germany, or against the Viet minh.
paintball player
Well, I don’t have a history degree, but…..Originally posted by Collegeboy
Then you might as well go throw that degree away for your historical knowledge sucks, to put it bluntly.
The French are not being cowards now, they don't think war will solve the problem. It is called having an opinion.
I guess they can call the US a coward for not helping them against Germany, or against the Viet minh.
I don’t remember the US standing up and being AGAINST French actions against the Germans or the Viet minh. And I DO seem to remember the US helping the French out with the Germans (after all, they WERE occupied and German is not their national language… funny how that works). And I DO seem to remember the US having something to do in Vietnam and it involved soldiers… but my memory is a bit shakey……
The French NOW are not simply stating that war will not solve the problem, and anyone who misses this fact truly does not see much. But all this has already been discussed in another LONG thread…. that didn’t settle any “disputes” either.
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You really think that CNN is much better news source? This after the debacle they just got pasted with over what they KNEW was going on in Iraq?????Originally posted by aaron_mag
Lets see how it breaks out. I don't believe that the French would not cooperate with the Germans who have been their allies against the U.S. in recent disagreement. If anything Chirac has been strengthening his German ties.
BTW quite watching Fox and start watching CNN. Much more balanced and intelligent news coverage. It would be good for you. Once you have mastered that put on the BBC once a week as well.
'I guess John Kerry went into the primaries without a plan to win the election.' - Ann Coulter
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Hey Michael Mooron, THIS is what a documentary looks like.
Registered User
I don't remember the US threatening to veto any attempt the French made to deal with the Germans or the Vietmanese either.
There is a difference in shutting your mouth and staying out of the way, and deliberately trying to make an donkey of yourself.
The Case Wang
This whole discussion is going the same as the other threads.
shartley you are right.
I'm done. I've wasted too much time on certain young people in college.
Still around????
Originally posted by Collegeboy
Then you might as well go throw that degree away for your historical knowledge sucks, to put it bluntly.
You sir are wasting your parents money. Besides, you are going to Alabama. Is that school even acredited?
The French are not being cowards now, they don't think war will solve the problem. It is called having an opinion.
You voice an opinion. You do not deliberatly become an obstacle. The French were all for disarming Saddam their way and no other. The French here deserve the rebukes they have earned!
I guess they can call the US a coward for not helping them against Germany, or against the Viet minh.
I seem to remember the Big Red 1 rolling through Europe to liberate France. Hmmm Dien Bein Phu ring any bells? You really are living up to Facts of Life's moniker for you!
P.S. I watch many news sources. In the AP today, guess what: The Media Research Center rates Iraqi war coverage:
FOX B, CBS B-, NBC/MSNBC C+, CNN C+, ABC D-.
Anchors: Tops-Brit Hume(A), Wolf Blitzer(B+), Dan Rather(B+); Pits-Peter Jennings(F)
Worst Reporter: Peter Arnett(F)
Real biased eh?
Still around????
CB,
Just for you:
The French asked the US in 1941 or so to help defend their nation against the Germans. The US said no. The French pleaded for the US to help kick out Germany from France from 1941 to when they finally did in 1945.Originally posted by shartley
Well, I don’t have a history degree, but…..
I don’t remember the US standing up and being AGAINST French actions against the Germans or the Viet minh. And I DO seem to remember the US helping the French out with the Germans (after all, they WERE occupied and German is not their national language
The French NOW are not simply stating that war will not solve the problem, and anyone who misses this fact truly does not see much. But all this has already been discussed in another LONG thread…. that didn’t settle any “disputes” either.
The French pleaded for US help in Vietnam and Dienmenpheu, the US said no.
All of the above examples lead to deaths of countless French men and woman, and don't even think they don't remember that.
Don't you know they remember the US only going into WWII when it was clear the German Army was weakened by the Russians, don't you know they remember that the US was not going to land in France to liberate the French but instead the Balkans until it became certain that it was going to take more men there, and why not let the Russians worry about it. So the US then went to France. Sort of a last choice.
The problem is the French do not have a short memory they have a LONG and good memory.
And yes 1de, Alabama is a top 50 school, and is the same rank as Ohio St.
The French was for disarming Iraq the only way possible. We are now seeing little tasting of the problems the US now faces. They are already being asked to leave, US citizens are already asking for troops to come home. Everything that goes wrong now is blamed on the US.
Casingbill, if you can’t argue or debate against me, then don’t post.
paintball player
There is a HUGE difference between denying “help” and standing in the way of something. If a person is climbing a mountain and they ask for your help, but you say no, it is vastly different than if you stood in their way and tried to PREVENT them from climbing it.
But CB refuses to open his eyes…..
What did the French prevent? UN approval of a war. Isn't that what they are supposed to do if they don't agree with the action? The US has denied the UN to reprimand Israel for years for illegal actions against the Palestinians.Originally posted by shartley
There is a HUGE difference between denying “help” and standing in the way of something. If a person is climbing a mountain and they ask for your help, but you say no, it is vastly different than if you stood in their way and tried to PREVENT them from climbing it.
But CB refuses to open his eyes…..
I think you are failing to open your eyes.
Old Member & Damn Proud!!
Registered User
"What did the French prevent? UN approval of a war. Isn't that what they are supposed to do if they don't agree with the action? The US has denied the UN to reprimand Israel for years for illegal actions against the Palestinians.
I think you are failing to open your eyes."
LOL! If only the self-righteous could see their own stupidity. First, Israels action wern't illegal. Just becuase your little palestienian friends told you they were, doesn't make it so. Second France willfully attempted to block US action against an enemy who was in clear violation of its own cease fire agreement. The US did not try to block the French from fighting the Germans. You see when you try to reinvent reality to suit your own small-minded view of what is going on here in the real world, you lose perspective, and look like a fool.
Nope I think you are talking about yourself.Originally posted by Rooster
"What did the French prevent? UN approval of a war. Isn't that what they are supposed to do if they don't agree with the action? The US has denied the UN to reprimand Israel for years for illegal actions against the Palestinians.
I think you are failing to open your eyes."
LOL! If only the self-righteous could see their own stupidity. First, Israels action wern't illegal. Just becuase your little palestienian friends told you they were, doesn't make it so. Second France willfully attempted to block US action against an enemy who was in clear violation of its own cease fire agreement. The US did not try to block the French from fighting the Germans. You see when you try to reinvent reality to suit your own small-minded view of what is going on here in the real world, you lose perspective, and look like a fool.
The French attempted to stop what they felt was the wrong way to "solve" this problem. There is nothing wrong there. That is what the UN is for.
I can't believe you just said Israel hasn't done anything illegal. Where are their boundaries, where are they now. Why are Palestinians forced to live in concentration camps, why are innocent Palestinians killed. Come on man, turn of American propaganda television and get an idea of what is going on.
Retromag, don't let me hear you complaining about someone burning the American flag.
Registered User
"Nope I think you are talking about yourself. "
Wow, did you learn that in Intelligent Comebacks 101, collegeboy? You must have failed that class baddly. I'm just going to laugh now.
"Nope I think you are talking about yourself. "
LOL!
No reason to waste precious neurons on someone as blinded as you.Originally posted by Rooster
"Nope I think you are talking about yourself. "
Wow, did you learn that in Intelligent Comebacks 101, collegeboy? You must have failed that class baddly. I'm just going to laugh now.
"Nope I think you are talking about yourself. "
LOL!
I love all these people having a problem with me being in college. It is down right funny.
Still around????
CB,
You sir are a buffoon. I went to the University of Maryland, not Ohio State!
Don't start the whole concentration camp issue again. As for WWII, don't forget, the US started fighting in North Africa right away. Think about the battle plan. To invade Europe right away while leaving hundreds of thousands of German troops in North Africa as reenforcements makes no sense. While the Russians were holding the eastern front, the allies cleaned up North Africa and the invaded Italy. The allies didn't invade France until it was feasable. Only a Moron (or CB) would throw themselves against a brick wall over and over again hoping for a different result. A smarter person weakens the wall then hits it.
As for Vietnam, the United States was drug into Vietnam saving the French. The US was underwiting (paying for) almost 80% of the French costs at that time. The U.S. brought military advisors into Vietnam in 1950. During DIEN BIEN PHU (If you sight History CB, spell it right
Not helping and feeding information to the enemy is 2 different things. Did we jump up to help France the moment they were invaded? No, but we didn't give the German's intelligence to help them fight the French either! If you can not see the difference between these positions, I feel sorry for you as you are truly blind!
Registered User
Oh for the love of........lets not rehash all the same issues. You guys aren't going to get back to the definition of concentration camps are you?
The only thing that pisses me off is short sighted people who "love this country". I was listening to experts on the radio today and one of them said that we WILL find weapons of mass destruction and she is sure because she spent alot of time going over the intelligence reports (in her work). Both said, however, that this administration has to get off their collective butts and start repairing relations with our allies. Do you know why they were advocating this?
You 1de as a banker should understand the importance of foriegn investment to our economy. People buy dollars to conduct trade and that benefits our economy. The major international currency used to be pounds sterling but the dollar replaced it and look what happened to the british economy. I'm not saying the Euro is going to replace the dollar but investors that decide to take their money elsewhere will further hurt the economy. Are things going relatively well for the U.S.? Personally I think they are but thumbing our noses at the world is not going to help. Oh I suppose our economy can never take a really hard fall like Germany and Japan? Do you remember when everyone was marveling at the Japanese business model and trying to emulate it? Guess what...things do change. Yes we are still strong economically despite some current issues but does that mean we should count our blessings and try to get everyone back to the state when they were perfectly happy conducting all their business in dollars and didn't let foolish things like their own national pride get in the way.
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paintball player
I thought this was about how the US and French affected each other, not about Israel. But than again, you like to alter your arguments just enough to cover any idea you want to fight about….. I forgot.Originally posted by Collegeboy
What did the French prevent? UN approval of a war. Isn't that what they are supposed to do if they don't agree with the action? The US has denied the UN to reprimand Israel for years for illegal actions against the Palestinians.
I think you are failing to open your eyes.
And because of that one simple fact, your argument does not even deserve a response.
Go back to sleep….. the dream world is your friend.
Originally posted by 1stdeadeye
CB,
You sir are a buffoon. I went to the University of Maryland, not Ohio State!
Don't start the whole concentration camp issue again. As for WWII, don't forget, the US started fighting in North Africa right away. Think about the battle plan. To invade Europe right away while leaving hundreds of thousands of German troops in North Africa as reenforcements makes no sense. While the Russians were holding the eastern front, the allies cleaned up North Africa and the invaded Italy. The allies didn't invade France until it was feasable. Only a Moron (or CB) would throw themselves against a brick wall over and over again hoping for a different result. A smarter person weakens the wall then hits it.
As for Vietnam, the United States was drug into Vietnam saving the French. The US was underwiting (paying for) almost 80% of the French costs at that time. The U.S. brought military advisors into Vietnam in 1950. During DIEN BIEN PHU (If you sight History CB, spell it right
Not helping and feeding information to the enemy is 2 different things. Did we jump up to help France the moment they were invaded? No, but we didn't give the German's intelligence to help them fight the French either! If you can not see the difference between these positions, I feel sorry for you as you are truly blind!
I didn't say you went to Ohio St. I said Bama was equal in ranking to Ohio St. (Now I know how bad you can misread something
I am not debating the US's strategy in WWII. All I am saying is how it looks to the French. How would you feel like if someone told you every day that such and such country saved your butt when you know you were the last thing on their mind.
I am not bringing up the concentration camp issue again, someone said that Israel hasn't done anything wrong, I just quickly pointed out what they are doing illegal, and what the US has used its power to block any attempts to correct the illegal actions of Israel. Why would Israel ever to the right thing, when the US will be there every time with its veto to stop the UN.
As for Dienbienphu, I don't recall US bombing the area. I recall the military asking for it, but Ike refused it, but I will check and make sure. I don't recall US advisors there, for the first time the advisors were there was under Kennedy. But again I will check and make sure.
Shartley. Again you are trying to alter the argument, (Kind of funny when you claim I am doing it, and you are doing it in the same sentence). I am trying to show parallels, and how it is ludicrous to site France for a wrong, when your own country does the same thing, and you have no problem with it.
The dreams of today are the realities of tomorrow. (I can’t remember who said that)
paintball player
Parallels? Yes, we are both talking about the US and France, but that is about as far as your examples “parallel” each other. And the examples you gave are far from being the same thing. Not to mention that I didn’t try to change anything, I addressed YOUR examples (as well as others have) and shown them to be far from “the same”.Originally posted by Collegeboy
Shartley. Again you are trying to alter the argument, (Kind of funny when you claim I am doing it, and you are doing it in the same sentence). I am trying to show parallels, and how it is ludicrous to site France for a wrong, when your own country does the same thing, and you have no problem with it.
The dreams of today are the realities of tomorrow. (I can’t remember who said that)
Yes, the dreams of today are the realities of tomorrow… but the dreams of the past are NOT, nor are the dreams of today the realities of today.
You all chastise the French government for threatening to use its veto to stop the US from attacking Iraq.Originally posted by shartley
Parallels? Yes, we are both talking about the US and France, but that is about as far as your examples “parallel” each other. And the examples you gave are far from being the same thing. Not to mention that I didn’t try to change anything, I addressed YOUR examples (as well as others have) and shown them to be far from “the same”.
Yes, the dreams of today are the realities of tomorrow… but the dreams of the past are NOT, nor are the dreams of today the realities of today.
But you don't chastise the US for using its veto to stop Israel and their illegal actions.
Sort of a double standard.
The parallel is easy to see if you open your eyes.
paintball player
So, is this your final argument? I thought it was about comparing the US actions in WWII and Vietnam? That is after all what I was responding to…. But now it involves Israel? Oh, but you don’t change your arguing points? Give me a break.Originally posted by Collegeboy
You all chastise the French government for threatening to use its veto to stop the US from attacking Iraq.
But you don't chastise the US for using its veto to stop Israel and their illegal actions.
Sort of a double standard.
The parallel is easy to see if you open your eyes.
As for what France did, it went a bit past simply threatening to Veto the US actions in Iraq… quite a bit past that. But you don’t want to see that do you? And I refuse to list the things that were more than a bit on the “wrong” side with France’s actions in all this mess. It has all been posted time and time again, and you keep wanting to fall back on “I know you are, but what am I.” arguments and “But he did it too!” crap.
If you don’t want to admit France’s wrong doings in all this, FINE, but don’t try to divert the issue from what FRANCE did and didn’t do by pointing out other non-related things that anyone else does, to include the US. No country is perfect or has always done the “right” thing, but that does not excuse pointing out when someone doesn’t…..
I can’t wait until you have children and get this type of argument tossed at you every time you turn around. You will see that you can’t pass blame because of the actions of another.
This is about showing all of you the other side of the coin. You all have gotten so keen to listening to the US side of things you have forgotten there is another side to things. I get sick and tired of hearing France bad this, burn the French flag, France bad that, but out of the same people I hear no bad words against the US for doing the same thing. You all are so caught up in the notion that the US is right in all it does that you have forgotten to look at things evenly.
France had the right to use its veto to block US military efforts in Iraq. That is what the UN is all about.
Until you all can pull your heads out of the propaganda hole, you will never be able to understand what I am saying, and why I am saying it.
You have the right to believe in what ever you want to, that is what being an American is about. But you are ignorant if you choose not to look at both sides before making a decision.
I could care less what you believe about France, but I wish you would at least be the slightest bit informed before you make that decision.
paintball player
Who said the US is right is all it does? Not me.Originally posted by Collegeboy
This is about showing all of you the other side of the coin. You all have gotten so keen to listening to the US side of things you have forgotten there is another side to things. I get sick and tired of hearing France bad this, burn the French flag, France bad that, but out of the same people I hear no bad words against the US for doing the same thing. You all are so caught up in the notion that the US is right in all it does that you have forgotten to look at things evenly.
France had the right to use its veto to block US military efforts in Iraq. That is what the UN is all about.
Until you all can pull your heads out of the propaganda hole, you will never be able to understand what I am saying, and why I am saying it.
You have the right to believe in what ever you want to, that is what being an American is about. But you are ignorant if you choose not to look at both sides before making a decision.
I could care less what you believe about France, but I wish you would at least be the slightest bit informed before you make that decision.
But that does not justify or even make acceptable what some other country does. And you have NOT shown that the US did EXACTLY the same things as France did involving the actions in Iraq. In fact you have only bring up NON-RELATED things in some effort to show that “If the US ever did anything bad, then France is okay for what they did”, which is as I have stated, a childish argument and holds NO weight in any logical debate.
Also France did not JUST threaten to Veto in the UN. They did FAR more than that, but again you refuse to see that, or even acknowledge it.
Also this is not an issue of me believing anything I want to believe. And it is NOT about not choosing to look at both sides and being ignorant. I DO look at both sides but come up with a FAR different conclusion than YOU do. That makes me ignorant? Ignorant is not believing your twisted views of things? Ignorant is not agreeing with what you say even though I DO look at both sides? Interesting….
Propaganda? LOL You are a self propaganda machine. No one in the world is bad because the US has done bad things. And it is easier to call the US a bad place that did bad things than to simply admit that when someone says FRANCE was wrong , it WAS wrong, no matter what the US has ever done. The US was NOT the issue… FRANCE was.
Get it?
You might not have that opinion, but you criticize me for criticizing the US government. So in essence you are saying that no one should criticize the government which entails you think they are always right.Originally posted by shartley
Who said the US is right is all it does? Not me.
But that does not justify or even make acceptable what some other country does. And you have NOT shown that the US did EXACTLY the same things as France did involving the actions in Iraq. In fact you have only bring up NON-RELATED things in some effort to show that “If the US ever did anything bad, then France is okay for what they did”, which is as I have stated, a childish argument and holds NO weight in any logical debate.
Also France did not JUST threaten to Veto in the UN. They did FAR more than that, but again you refuse to see that, or even acknowledge it.
Also this is not an issue of me believing anything I want to believe. And it is NOT about not choosing to look at both sides and being ignorant. I DO look at both sides but come up with a FAR different conclusion than YOU do. That makes me ignorant? Ignorant is not believing your twisted views of things? Ignorant is not agreeing with what you say even though I DO look at both sides? Interesting….
Propaganda? LOL You are a self propaganda machine. No one in the world is bad because the US has done bad things. And it is easier to call the US a bad place that did bad things than to simply admit that when someone says FRANCE was wrong , it WAS wrong, no matter what the US has ever done. The US was NOT the issue… FRANCE was.
Get it?
France on Iraq and the US on Israel.
Both cases are examples of one country stopping another country from their version of punishment of another country. Only with the US's case they stop any punishment, at least France said punishment is in order, just a war will not be best for the Iraqi people.
I can not understand how if someone looks at both sides of the issue with an open mind they can come up with the hogwash that you are pushing. I could care less if your opinion differs from mine, but I do care if your opinion is accurately formed and unbiasly (as much as possible) formed.
Are you now saying the US is wrong in its support of Israel? If not then France is not wrong. You can not blame another country saying it is wrong while saying another country do the same thing is right. Simple as that.
As for me being a self-propaganda machine, humorous, you should be a comedian.
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