Classic RT...most unsupported gun AGD has.

**dre1919** · 05-08-2003, 09:46 AM

What's with that by the way? I own a Classic RT at the moment and I plan on upgrading to something really high end very soon (probably an ir3 since the X won't be out in quantity for another six years or something

). Anyway, another option I thought was building a really sweet mag again from scratch because I love AGD guns. But the funny thing is, nothing is made to upgrade the classic RT! I would actually have to buy an older Automag or an RTP, and start there. I'm looking at the online store and the ULE's are "not for the classic RT", the X-Valve "won't fit the classic RT", etc. Now, I understand there is the RTP and so there isn't a need per se for all kinds of upgrades to the classic RT, but I don't buy that.

The classic Automag is older and rated less performance wise than the classic RT and it has a ton of upgrades, plus new things that come out get made for it too. But, the classic RT feels like the "fogotten gun" in the AGD line. Does anybody else feel like this? The bad part about this is, it makes the resale of the classic RT horrible. Seriously, I think I'd run into trouble trying to GIVE my RT away (being sarcastic). I upgraded mine with a Hyperframe, which Centerflag was kind enough to produce, and that made the difference between it being a good usuable gun again and a high priced paperweight. I guess the point of this post is to illustrate the dissapointment I have in the lack of options afforded to classic RT owners...especially since it was once considered the "bad boy of the family" and the coolest thing since sliced bread.

Instead of coming out with the RTP, why didn't the R&D department come out with cool upgrades to make the classic RT better...like ULE type bodies of the X valve?

**xmetal2001** · 05-08-2003, 09:59 AM

I'm guessing that the reason RT's dont get all the upgrades is because demand wouldn't be high enough to justify making parts especially for that.

For instance, on the ULE bodies, they will also fit other mags, because the only really unique body is the RT...
The demand for these types of parts for RT's just isn't great enough to justify AGD designed, and producing a completely different part for the very few people that would buy it.

**headcase** · 05-08-2003, 10:00 AM

There is one main reason.

As cool as the original RT was, with the internal gas runs and such, the valve and therefore the body are a different size than everything thing else AGD made. So while it would take fairly small changes in most cases to have the ULE bodies work on E-mags/RTPs/Classics it would take a complete redesign to work with the RTs.

Basicly it just woouldn't make financial sence for AGD to make an entire seperate line of accessories for the RTs considering the small number of them out there when compared to all the other AGD mags.

Sorry for ya

**BlackVCG** · 05-08-2003, 10:10 AM

The original RT was designed to change as many features of the Mag as possible, but still retain the same Mag look and principles of operation. The mainbody style, the banjo bolt system, the threaded sear axle pin, etc.

The RT-Pro was designed to retain the RT gun, but make it so that everything retrofitted between it and the E-Mag and the standard Automags. Mainbodies from E-Mags and RTPs are interchangeable, grip frames from std. Mags and RTPs are interchangeable, etc.

If you want to upgrade your Classic RT, it isn't much different than upgrading a std. Mag or RTP to all of the latest upgrades. You just need to get a ULE rail, ULE body, Intelliframe and X-Valve and you've got yourself a nice RT. Now, this means that about the only thing that's in your new RT that's from your classic RT is the sear, but I'm noticing that most people's guns are like this anyway.

$200 X-Valve + $145 ULE Body + $115 I-Frame + $80 ULE rail

That's $540 in upgrades to make it the latest and greatest.

Is it worth it, maybe to some people. Your limiting factor is the rail. If you can get an X-Valve, a standard RT-Pro rail and a std. grip frame, you can upgrade to the ULE body.

You aren't being left in the dark, but the simple fact is there aren't enough of them out on the market to justify making things just for them.

**cphilip** · 05-08-2003, 10:34 AM

Yes in fact this is another example of a Mag before its time. Tom made this thing with internal Air routing and ports you could hang guages and stuff off of or chose where your air came into the marker. And so it changed the package to something different than Mags before or after could be to accomidate that. And no one seemed to want to jump on it and relize what it was at the time so it never quite took off. However all the sudden now we have markers touting the fact that they run the air lines internaly! Like it's a new idea. Well by this time Tom has decided people do not seem to want that. In hind site Tom wishes he never had took a chance on that design. And there is little he can do but revert to the older style input which he has done. And you can see now why he strives to make everything retroactivly convertable. He learned the just because its a good plan its not allways accepted in its time...

If I had an old RT I would hang onto it. It's a clever design that was way ahead of its time. Upgrade? No not going to be possible. My idea would be to find one that is as close to stock as possible but with an intelliframe on it and with a center feed body. Then have BradAGD convert it to a no rise and keep it like that. It's still one heck of a shooting marker and design.

**AGD** · 05-08-2003, 10:48 AM

Acturally we are working on a package deal where you gan trade in your old body and valve and get a discount on a ULE body and Xvalve. Just like the go retro program but for RT owners.

This way you can jump right to the latest stuff and be in step with everyone eles. Problem is we can't do this until we get enough ULE bodies in stock.

Standby its coming.

AGD

**cphilip** · 05-08-2003, 10:59 AM

DAM! very kind gesture Tom...

I would keep my old skool RT if I had one though. Gonna be a collectors item some day. Maybe I can swing one of you other fella's trade ins when this happens.

**nerobro** · 05-08-2003, 11:15 AM

VEry cool tom. One of the two orphan mags get's it's orphan status removed ;-)

RT owners used to be in about the same boat as sydarm owners. A valve that isn't standard, a body that can't be easily swapped.....yaknow, fun stuff like that.

And you're talking upgrades. Most of whatyou mentioned is just cosmetic stuff.... and stuff for weight reasons. I remember seeing some seriously skeletonized mags on the tourny circut.. ..... So... Ifyou're willing to use a machine shop to do your custom work you can go a long way toward making your RT really freaking nifty.

The gun I remember most, was a highrise rt, with the back of the rail cut short so it was just long enoughto feed air to the banjo bolt. the front of the rail was trimmed so the foregrip only got 4 screws instead of 6. the body was trimmed in front to remove the swiss cheeze part. the gun must have lost half a pound in the process ;-)

**JEDI** · 05-08-2003, 11:19 AM

Originally posted by AGD
Acturally we are working on a package deal where you gan trade in your old body and valve and get a discount on a ULE body and Xvalve. Just like the go retro program but for RT owners.

This way you can jump right to the latest stuff and be in step with everyone eles. Problem is we can't do this until we get enough ULE bodies in stock.

Standby its coming.

AGD

Tom, thats very cool of you. The RT is what it is, but its an awesome gesture for you to help out any owners of one. I too often wondered how RT owners felt about owning a discontinued/non-supported gun. But again, this is a very commendable offer.

**dre1919** · 05-08-2003, 11:39 AM

Originally posted by AGD
Acturally we are working on a package deal where you gan trade in your old body and valve and get a discount on a ULE body and Xvalve. Just like the go retro program but for RT owners.

This way you can jump right to the latest stuff and be in step with everyone eles. Problem is we can't do this until we get enough ULE bodies in stock.

Standby its coming.

AGD

First of all, let me say thanks to Tom for this tidbit of info...that's very nice of you to offer something like this. I think it would really help those of us who have an old school RT that can't upgrade. My question is, since the big problem essentially is the rail, would that come with this program of new body/valve?

There are some good points in all the responses here. My thing was just when I bought the RT in 2000, it was the best AGD had at the time because I love AGD products. Then it just seemed it fell off the face of the Earth as far as plans for upgrades and things available to do to it. Of course, the things I mentioned above are purely cosmetic (with the exception of the X valve), but that's part of what paintball is...building and tricking out your marker. I knew at the time when I bought the RT it had less aftermarket accessories than the classic Automag, but I also thought it didn't matter because I wouldn't need them. I also thought new things would be forthcoming and instead I see AGD went to a new model of RT, the RTP.

I have no problem with that because that's just good business (expanding your line), but I would have liked to have seen a trade-in upgrade program of some kind. Apparently, Tom is gracious enough to have been thinking of doing this and that rewards older customers loyalty. Thanks Tom, I appreciate that. I think the classic RT was a good design, but had a few issues. I personally hate the banjo bolt, but that stems from the fact mine has gone seriously screwy in the past few months and makes me mad enough to chuck the gun into a river.

I like the idea of the internal gas routing, and I don't understand why this isn't done on the X-Mag instead of having to have a loop of steel braid, but the one on the classic RT is a bit of a pain when you want to reconfigure.

I haven't seen lately, but what came of the NPPL rule issue regarding reactive triggers? I mean, if the NPPL says triggers that push back into place are illegal, how does this not affect the use of the X Valve? I was under the impression it worked the same way as the RT valve. Would it be safe to take advantage of this new program once Tom starts it and upgrade my RT even though I play in NPPL ruled events?

**BlackVCG** · 05-08-2003, 11:44 AM

Tom, you also have the rail to deal with because it doesn't have the z-lock groove. The body had the z-lock groove and IIRC, the RT rails did not have the standard z-groove milled in the left side of the rail.

**Muzikman** · 05-08-2003, 01:07 PM

What's wrong with the old RT, they have style...they just arn't light

**cheetah256** · 05-08-2003, 02:04 PM

Originally posted by AGD
Acturally we are working on a package deal where you gan trade in your old body and valve and get a discount on a ULE body and Xvalve. Just like the go retro program but for RT owners.

This way you can jump right to the latest stuff and be in step with everyone eles. Problem is we can't do this until we get enough ULE bodies in stock.

Standby its coming.

AGD

you rock! : D

maybe my RT will end up with a ULE and xvalve...it looks pretty nifty right now though

**krafty** · 05-08-2003, 02:25 PM

I may be just me... but there was something unique about the original RT and the feel of the trigger. It's hard to explain, but no RTP, ReTro Valve or Xvalve feels like an RT when you shoot it. It's just 'different' - and I actually prefer it.

But that's just me, and I'm not known for being the sanest guy here.

**BlackVCG** · 05-08-2003, 02:54 PM

Well, they did have the sear with the precision ground carbide inserts and the roller bearing...

**Evil Bob** · 05-08-2003, 03:47 PM

Thanks Tom! I can't tell you how much I've felt like a red headed step child with the pair of classic RT's that have been sitting in my closet collecting dust. I know you'll be taking a loss in replacing these parts just like you did with the valve trade in programs, something we all know you don't have to do but did anyway to keep your customers happy, very few companies out there would go that far for their customer base, this is what sets AGD apart from the rest.

Actually, I've seen some pretty high numbers for serials in the classic RT series, I've got one that's in the 5,000's, there are quite a few of them out there, it was *the* Mag to own before the retro vavle was widely available.

Without any special parts, we're looking at a pretty much a complete replacement of the marker because of the banjo bolt.

1) Grip Frame has a larger hole to accomodate the banjo bolt.
2) Rail has a larger hole to accomodate the banjo bolt.
3) Body has different dimensions to accomodate the smaller classic RT valve.
4) RT valve due to its smaller size.

About the only stock items we would not need to replace is the gas through front grip and the sight rail.

That being said, it would be possible to manufacture a small sleeve that would fit the in the larger hole in the grip frame that the banjo bolt occupied that would allow the use of a standard Mag bolt, it would be substantially cheaper to produce the drop in part then replace the grip frame.

Not too sure about the difference in the rails, I'll pull my RT and Emag rails out and compare the two when I get home to see if it's possible to mount a ULE on it. If that works, the same sleeve that was created for the grip frame can be extended into the classic RT rail for a solid fit, which will save the cost of replacing the rail.

-Evil Bob

**AGD** · 05-08-2003, 04:36 PM

The plan is to use a sleeve in the rail/grip and put the z-lock pin outside the rail so it rests against the edge. Yes you will see it but thats the best we can do (its very small).

AGD

personman · 05-08-2003, 04:44 PM

Heck, if you guys dont like your RTs, just sell it and buy an RT pro.. I mean whats the point of having a classic rt with an xvalve and a ule?? then its almost an rt pro?
Just sell it and buy an rt pro or something.. or you could keep it, whichever, but I think the classic RTs look AWEsome and I would love to own one, except I dont have enough money to buy one. Plus I already own an E-mag..

**Jonesie** · 05-08-2003, 05:25 PM

I'm currently looking into replacing my ReTro Mag with an Old-Skool Z-Gripped RT. If you interested, I'll take that piece of history off your hands!

**Evil Bob** · 05-08-2003, 08:08 PM

Tom: Can the z lock pin be removed?

-Evil Bob

**jwren00** · 05-08-2003, 08:38 PM

Originally posted by krafty
I may be just me... but there was something unique about the original RT and the feel of the trigger. It's hard to explain, but no RTP, ReTro Valve or Xvalve feels like an RT when you shoot it. It's just 'different' - and I actually prefer it.

But that's just me, and I'm not known for being the sanest guy here.

I agree with you on this one. I bought mine way back in high school(serial number rt03440) and i've never shot a mag that feels the same. The trigger really is amazing.

I dont mind the weight at all, i just wish i had a no-rise centerfeed. who here makes those things?

**damageinc54** · 05-09-2003, 12:54 AM

Tom, you are not kidding us are you???? A ULE Body and X valve for the RT? You will get some more of my money!!! I just hope you make a blue one to match my baby.

**dre1919** · 05-09-2003, 03:48 PM

Tom, any way you might have even a rough estimate of when this trade in program will happen for us classic RT owners? Any info would be greatly appreciated.

**Grasshopper** · 05-09-2003, 10:41 PM

Originally posted by jwren00

I agree with you on this one. I bought mine way back in high school(serial number rt03440) and i've never shot a mag that feels the same. The trigger really is amazing.

I dont mind the weight at all, i just wish i had a no-rise centerfeed. who here makes those things?

Dude, that thing looks Sawaheet! I love that cool looking hardline. Wish I had that on my 'Mag

**jwren00** · 05-09-2003, 10:52 PM

grasshopper -

i live in Santa Barbara too, actually isla vista, i go to UCSB. where do you play? how old are you? I play at urban quest usually.

**Grasshopper** · 05-09-2003, 11:08 PM

Originally posted by jwren00
grasshopper -

i live in Santa Barbara too, actually isla vista, i go to UCSB. where do you play? how old are you? I play at urban quest usually.

Hey, cool! I usually go to the free field (a few miles from Battlefield Adventures), since I usually have friends that havn't played before going. When I have extra funds though, I head over to Urban Quest. I'm 14, by the way. Also, I have a few friends that go over to Urban Quest every weekend, so you may know a few of them. They all shoot 'Cockers though

**jwren00** · 05-10-2003, 01:14 AM

where is battlefield adventures. i've played at the free field here in goleta behind vons, is that the free field you are talking about?

**Grasshopper** · 05-10-2003, 10:48 AM

http://www.paintballxtreme.net/stores.asp
It's the third or fourth one down. The free field I go to I found in an advertisment they had at one of the other stores (Check Yourself Paintball, I think). It's just a few (5-10) miles away from battlefield adventures. Do you have AIM/MSN?

**Tunaman** · 05-10-2003, 05:01 PM

Long live the RT! Fastest gun on the planet with no shootdown!

I'm up for some Warp left RT Ule bodies with the holes in front! Woot!

**WARPED1** · 05-10-2003, 05:14 PM

Can someone explain to me what the hell a banjo bolt is?! Thanks.
Very cool of you BTW Tom, for the trade in dealio.

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