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Thread: AGD's Relply to the Wait on Xmags (long)

  1. #61
    ben_JD Guest
    Originally posted by Blennidae
    ...Who do you think complains the most?
    Type 1, without a doubt. They are the folks with the most invested (non-monetarily) in the marker.

  2. #62
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    Originally posted by dre1919
    My opinion is, if the X was too expensive to create and you knew the logistical support to create it en masse wasn't there, you never should have made it in the first place...
    Did you actually read Tom's post? The whole problem with the X-Mag is that AGD DIDN'T make it. AGD Europe created the Extreme and X-Mag, people spotted it, wanted it and then suddenly there's huge demand for X-Mags in the USA - however the people who actually produce the bodies do so only on a scale sufficient to supply demand in the UK/Europe.

    I believe AGD Europe is actually an entirely separate company (Powerpulse) to AGD 'proper' and that either they, or the company who designed the milled body, own the rights to the design.

    AGD-US have no way of producing the bodies themselves and no way of controlling who manufactures them for AGD Europe. They have to sit and wait for shipments from Europe and then colour, assemble and test the full markers.

    I'd be willing to bet that Tom wishes the X-Mag body had never seen the light of day - as AGD would have been far better off shipping standard E-Mags with ULE bodies/rails/grips and X-Valves - all components that they can control the production of.
    Last edited by Gadget; 05-13-2003 at 07:45 AM.

  3. #63
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    Originally posted by steveg
    Sam, I don't think Dirty is being unfair at all, If Tom is
    aware of dealers with "dead" products, on one hand and
    on the other hand has a bunch of (apparently ungratefull whiners)
    people clamouring for that same product,
    (and HIS product to boot) than it seems a dis-service to both his
    dealer, and his and her potential customer, to not introduce each to the other.
    I would agree that matching up dealers with buyers is a good thing. But that is not how I read DB’s post. It seemed like he as blaming DEALERS because they are not finding buyers for the products.
    What can I do if the dealers that do have them in the pipeline don't know how to get to the customers that want them?
    This is clearly putting the blame of the product not selling on the dealer not knowing how to “get to the customers that want them”, not talking about Tom finding out what dealers are not able to move his product because the buying public in their area simply don’t WANT them (for either price reasons, or other factors). And that is what I was saying is unfair.

    Again, it would be great if there was a database with all dealers and what markers they had, and AGD could direct folks to them… however, you run into problems such as:

    - The appearance of showing favoritism to one dealer over another.
    - Having to keep the actual sales of each dealer updated… living nightmare, and too much of a hassle for dealers.

    And I am sure there are other problems that would come up as well.

    Sure, the Auto Industry has a system similar to this, but for THEM it is worth it simply for the numbers of cars made and sold and the PRICE of each unit moved.

    But honestly, it is not really the job of the store to find buyers for each and every product on their shelves. It is their job to make sure folks know the store is THERE. If the product does not sell, that is not the fault of the store (unless they are purposely pushing other products). And I know that places such as Adventure Games have no shortage of customers. I have never been to their Manchester, NH Store where there was not at a minimum a steady influx of a handful of folks at a time. And their Park Location even on slow days sees sales of actual game related products (squeegees, packs, pods, etc.) and the customers see a wide range of other products as well.

    If DB knew Adventure Games had them, or had them on order and didn’t contact them because Tom suggested he wait, that was DB’s decision. I have no idea why Tom would tell him to wait, because I was not privy to their conversation, but that was still DB’s decision. If it was me, I would have probably at a minimum sent them off an e-mail and asked about the product anyways. But again, I was not privy to their conversation and don’t know the particulars…. nor really care to know. It is none of my business.

    Like I stated, Adventure Games did not hide the fact that they had the product. They even posted it on their online forums. So what I am saying is that aside from that, they should not be required, or even expected to do any more. It is up to the buyer to find the product they want to purchase. And like I said about the supplies for MY products, I spent MONTHS researching and contacting tens of companies to find the one that had exactly what I needed and at the price and availability I required.

    I am not slamming DB for his opinion, or post, I am just looking at it from another perspective and posting my views.

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  4. #64
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    Tom,
    In regard to X-Mags hanging on the wall of your dealers shops, until someone from AO finds them should have rang a bell. I don't remember you ever listing dealers that MAY still had them in stock. It seems to me, you could have relieved some pressure by simply listing the names and phone numbers of your dealers that could possibly still have them. (You still could )

  5. #65
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    Sam I didn't see your last post before I submitted what I did. So in response to " Again, it would be great if there was a database with all dealers and what markers they had, and AGD could direct folks to them? however, you run into problems such as:" This could be done by simply listing names and phone numbers. I don't think it would be necessary to list available inventory

  6. #66
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    Originally posted by luke
    Tom,
    In regard to X-Mags hanging on the wall of your dealers shops, until someone from AO finds them should have rang a bell. I don't remember you ever listing dealers that MAY still had them in stock. It seems to me, you could have relieved some pressure by simply listing the names and phone numbers of your dealers that could possibly still have them. (You still could )
    This would be great! But….

    http://www.automags.org/resource/lin...s_fields.shtml

    And that is on THIS site. And if you walked over to the AGD main site, you will see that they have a whole list of dealers with links to their actual sites.

    http://www.airgun.com/dealers.shtml

    And if someone really wanted to see if they HAD a specific product, they could take a couple minutes and look for themselves.

    Now, to expand on that… Tom posted this…

    Adventure Games NH had the first 9 to come off the assembly line with no preorders. She wanted to cut it back to two but I told her to come to the AO dealers section and sell them. She did and got no takers in the auction she set up, she only took two.

    This showed that not only did THIS dealer put on her own forum (as I have stated) that she had the product, but actually posted about it HERE on AO. What more do folks want?

    Now don’t get me wrong… there are other issues about this that buyers have valid issues on, but they don’t have one about not knowing what dealers are selling them. Sometimes the buyer has to step up and do a little leg work themselves. And by no means have the Dealers been kept a secret, or been unable to contact… all someone had to do is look... and then ask them.

  7. #67
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    Sam one of the things that I personally would not do is
    participate in an auction especially for a new retail
    product, given the lack of response, others might have
    thought on similar lines.

    As you mention cars, one of the neat things about buying
    cars in Canada is that dealers are not allowed to sell
    above MRSP. what this means is that when a new model comes
    out there is no price gouging. I bought my 92 MX-3 new
    within weeks of it's N.A. introduction at MRSP and not a penny more.

    The intent of an auction is to see how much people are
    willing to pay, My bet is that people didn't respond
    because of the uncertainty and disapointment of not
    winning and the possability of paying more that necessary
    for it (the marker)

    certainly a dedicated buyer should do some leg work
    but at the same time is not obliged to pay "Any" price

    I get the impression that Tom knows many of the dealers
    personally, that would suggest that keeping track of
    limited high-end marker sales a bit less odious and be
    consistant with the "personal touch" that AGD is reputed to have.

  8. #68
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    Originally posted by Gadget


    Did you actually read Tom's post? The whole problem with the X-Mag is that AGD DIDN'T make it. AGD Europe created the Extreme and X-Mag, people spotted it, wanted it and then suddenly there's huge demand for X-Mags in the USA - however the people who actually produce the bodies do so only on a scale sufficient to supply demand in the UK/Europe.

    I believe AGD Europe is actually an entirely separate company (Powerpulse) to AGD 'proper' and that either they, or the company who designed the milled body, own the rights to the design.

    AGD-US have no way of producing the bodies themselves and no way of controlling who manufactures them for AGD Europe. They have to sit and wait for shipments from Europe and then colour, assemble and test the full markers.

    I'd be willing to bet that Tom wishes the X-Mag body had never seen the light of day - as AGD would have been far better off shipping standard E-Mags with ULE bodies/rails/grips and X-Valves - all components that they can control the production of.
    Have you actually read your post? First of all, I doubt AGD Europe is an entirely seperate company and even if they are, fine, it only proves my point even more. If Tom Kaye saw the body and said "You know what? That's pretty cool but it's gonna be the hardest piece in paintball to mill properly and I don't really have the resources to make it happen", at that point he should have walked away from it. He should have came here and said "AGD Europe has this cool body you can get for your E-Mag, so talk to them if you want it." Or, he could have completely left it alone and never said anything...only directing people AGDE's way when they fielded him questions about it. However, this is all irrelevant since he didn't do this...what he did was come out with this hype about the gun as though it was their new "flagship" marker (see front page of airgun.com). We always want the newest, best thing so it became common belief that this marker was it and that made everyone want one.

    My point from above is, you can't come out with something more revolutionary than anything else your company offers, especially in front of your most loyal customers (AO Members) and not expect a heavy demand for it. Then, to make it worse, his post makes him sound as though he's complaining about us complaining about it. Gee, I'm sorry...I'd love to have a modern, technically superior AGD product that rivals the Angel because right now we (AGD customers) don't have one. So, in summation, if you're going to make a super product...make the damn thing and let's get on with it. If you're comfortable staying in the market share you already have, fine...stay there. But don't tease us with something many of us have been waiting for for years and then dangle it in front of us for six months. That's BS.

  9. #69
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    SAM,
    Shows what I know and how much I "surf"! To be honest I've never seen those two links, but I've never looked either.

    What I don't understand is there's X-Mags available, people are screaming for them, but, for what ever reason the link between buyer and seller is not being made. You can put the blame on what ever you like, but it still wont fix the problem. I'm merely trying to point out that perhaps some other approach should be made, regardless of who should be doing what. It may NOT be Toms responsibly to help advertise his dealers stores, but if it increases sells what could it hurt. By that, I mean names and numbers not inventory. I'm sure his dealers are greater in number than the links that you posted. There is a solution, it just needs to be found.

  10. #70
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    Originally posted by dre1919


    Have you actually read your post? First of all, I doubt AGD Europe is an entirely seperate company and even if they are, fine, it only proves my point even more. If Tom Kaye saw the body and said "You know what? That's pretty cool but it's gonna be the hardest piece in paintball to mill properly and I don't really have the resources to make it happen", at that point he should have walked away from it. He should have came here and said "AGD Europe has this cool body you can get for your E-Mag, so talk to them if you want it." Or, he could have completely left it alone and never said anything...only directing people AGDE's way when they fielded him questions about it. However, this is all irrelevant since he didn't do this...what he did was come out with this hype about the gun as though it was their new "flagship" marker (see front page of airgun.com). We always want the newest, best thing so it became common belief that this marker was it and that made everyone want one.

    My point from above is, you can't come out with something more revolutionary than anything else your company offers, especially in front of your most loyal customers (AO Members) and not expect a heavy demand for it. Then, to make it worse, his post makes him sound as though he's complaining about us complaining about it. Gee, I'm sorry...I'd love to have a modern, technically superior AGD product that rivals the Angel because right now we (AGD customers) don't have one. So, in summation, if you're going to make a super product...make the damn thing and let's get on with it. If you're comfortable staying in the market share you already have, fine...stay there. But don't tease us with something many of us have been waiting for for years and then dangle it in front of us for six months. That's BS.

    You doubt AGDE is a seprate company? well...you're wrong. It is. AGDUS has no holdings in what goes on at AGDE. Why did Tom have to start selling XMags from AGDUS? Because they have a non compete clause where AGDE is not allowed to sell to the US market, nor is AGDUS allowed to sell in europe. So If i called AGDE today asking for an XMag they would say, yup we have 7 in stock, but sorry, we cant ship to the states. I would have to know someone in Europe to buy it for me, then have them ship it over to the states...quite an expense once you add in the 17.8% VAT tax....

    The X-Mag is a HUGE hassle for AGD. But they have it where they want it. AGD does not WANT to have X-Mags sitting on the shelf (for better or worse). They dont WANT to have htem sitting in stock at AGD (although when it comes to complete markers, AGD goesnt keep much of anything in stock)

    The E-Mag (now with ULE Grip, ULE Body, ULE Valve) Doesnt compete with an angel? Get outta here. whats the difference in the E-Mag and the X-Mag...pretty body, ACE(although unneeded with Level 10--something the angels dont have)....um....um....about half a pound? The E-Mags can SURELY keep up with hte Angels. No doubt about it. I owned a PTP EMag and kept up with those angel owners just fine in my tournys...


    finally...do you know how much of a risk it is to preproduce the 1000 plus X-Mags it would take to have them readily available at its release? especially when AGDE can only give us 30 per month? It would have taken YEARS to make that supply, and they would have had to sit while more were being made. Its not fiscally sound to do that. When AGD can only get 30/month...they only get 30/month....

  11. #71
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    Originally posted by Kevmaster

    You doubt AGDE is a seprate company? well...you're wrong. It is.
    Hmmm...that's very interesting...I wasn't aware of that. As I stated before in my post, "correct me if I'm wrong" and someone did. Cool.


    The X-Mag is a HUGE hassle for AGD.
    That seems like a problem between AGD and AGDE then.


    The E-Mag (now with ULE Grip, ULE Body, ULE Valve) Doesnt compete with an angel? Get outta here. whats the difference in the E-Mag and the X-Mag...pretty body, ACE(although unneeded with Level 10--something the angels dont have)....um....um....about half a pound? The E-Mags can SURELY keep up with hte Angels. No doubt about it. I owned a PTP EMag and kept up with those angel owners just fine in my tournys...
    Yeah? That's great. I keep up just fine with my Classic RT with a Hyperframe on it too, but I'd like something newer and nicer. There are a few points I could make here, and in the interest of not starting a flaming war I won't, but the fact remains that the Angel is regarded as the top marker in paintball. Period. This is opinion and perception, I know, but what I'm saying is the X-Mag could challenge it's spot. The E-Mag hasn't and never will... If you're happy with you're E-Mag, yay for you...personally I think they're heavy and ugly. They look like an RT with a battery pack.


    finally...do you know how much of a risk it is to preproduce the 1000 plus X-Mags it would take to have them readily available at its release? especially when AGDE can only give us 30 per month? It would have taken YEARS to make that supply, and they would have had to sit while more were being made. Its not fiscally sound to do that. When AGD can only get 30/month...they only get 30/month....
    Not realizing AGDE is a seperate entity and AGDUS is at their mercy impact's this point a lot, as I stated above. I was under the impression AGDUS was creating these, so that explains a lot.

  12. #72
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    Business....

    I understand completely with the problems of business. I don't think the majority of the people complaining necessarily are complaining about the business practices of AGD, but the availability. I know personally I would love to see more AGD products in my local stores. I see none. When I go to my fields, people look at me like I am weird for using a MAG, and I am fine with that. Being a crazy car guy I can always compare car trends with many other things. I enjoy having a car that no one else has (or wants), even though it is a high performance car that is fun and great to drive. Does this mean I will call Ford and yell at them to make more and advertise, no. I would love it if more people knew about the car and appreciated it, but if not oh well. If AGD is content with the market they have then fine. If all of you expect Tom to make more X mags just so you can show off to the Angel owners out there, well, get realistic. If he wanted the market to be flooded with X magss I am sure he could do it. It seems he wants it to be a limited run, so fine. I persoanlly was upset at the unavailability of some of AGD products, but after reading Tom's post I understand more the mindset of the company. I owned a 1998 Z28 and really wanted an SS, but the availbility and waiting list made it a bit more expensive and unavailable than I could afford. I couldn't even imagine calling, emailing or posting to the President of the company and demanding they ramp up performance so I could have mine for a specific date. They would tell me exactly where to go! Tom is trying to be accomodating to us because he knows there is a demand, but be realistic people. If there was a REAL demand for these Xmags, the office would be getting phone calls from dealers and regular people all the time, probably like WDP does. Does this mean the WDP has better PR, maybe. Does this mean that Tom necessarily wants the same kind of market share as WDP, not necessarily. I kind of like the fact that the Xmag is a bit of an enigma, and may not be readily available. It makes it a bit more desirable. If it was as readily available as an Angel or Matrix, then it would just be another overpriced marker. Now we have a high end marker, and seeing as some of use enjoy owning High end stuff, this is a nice niche for AGD to be in. Sure there won't be dozens of them at the fields, but you will be different and some day soon, awed! It is the reason why people like me will wait until I can afford a high end stereo instead of the same old same old Sonys, Kenwoods, etc. Be proud of your AGD stuff, enjoy the smirks and gawks you get for owning them and have fun with it. Tom, roll with the punches that come with owning a business and hopefully the presense of a "high end" marker will spark business for you and keep you going strong.

    Just my $.04, post was long
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  13. #73
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    well put madmatt151
    "The Few Who Do Are The Envy Of The Many Who Only Stand And Watch"

    Alway Remember *343*

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  14. #74
    The Frymarker Guest
    Oh I forgot I can actually go on a larger scale than my grips.

    I know exactly where Tom is coming from.


    My husband and I designed a vest for scenario paintball players. It cost us $150,000 dollars to make 5000. We had a bunch of people from the start that wanted them, we called every where to sell them.

    Something that everyone told us was a great idea became the worst mistake we could ever make.

    We had advertising, sales, everything. The vest went no where. When I look back on what we invested to make this product work and what we got back was futile.

    It got to the point where we were actually just giving them away to family and friends.

    I know exactly where he is coming from.

    Think of it this way my husband said the mark up on markers isn't that high, producers maybe make a 1/3. So if a marker costs $1500, $1000 to make they make $500 off of it. Now think of it Tom made 300 to begin with cost $300,000.

    That is a heavty chunk of change to just go on will they buy them? Now he is making another 500..... 1/2 million invested on promises to buy.

    Now let's just say they go no where, he can only write of a percentage of that as a loss on his taxes.

    These are just examples not truths I have no idea what the exact percentage is, but having come from making products on our own and what you really make from them, I truly feel for Tom.

    I think Tom is just trying to let everyone know, hey this is where I'm coming from.

  15. #75
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    Originally posted by The Frymarker
    Oh I forgot I can actually go on a larger scale than my grips.

    I know exactly where Tom is coming from.


    My husband and I designed a vest for scenario paintball players. It cost us $150,000 dollars to make 5000. We had a bunch of people from the start that wanted them, we called every where to sell them.

    Something that everyone told us was a great idea became the worst mistake we could ever make.

    We had advertising, sales, everything. The vest went no where. When I look back on what we invested to make this product work and what we got back was futile.

    It got to the point where we were actually just giving them away to family and friends.

    I know exactly where he is coming from.

    Think of it this way my husband said the mark up on markers isn't that high, producers maybe make a 1/3. So if a marker costs $1500, $1000 to make they make $500 off of it. Now think of it Tom made 300 to begin with cost $300,000.

    That is a heavty chunk of change to just go on will they buy them? Now he is making another 500..... 1/2 million invested on promises to buy.

    Now let's just say they go no where, he can only write of a percentage of that as a loss on his taxes.

    These are just examples not truths I have no idea what the exact percentage is, but having come from making products on our own and what you really make from them, I truly feel for Tom.

    I think Tom is just trying to let everyone know, hey this is where I'm coming from.
    Nice post, but honestly… who cares?

    Now, before anyone bites my head off, let me explain…..

    EVERY company, person, or whatever, has a risk in making a product. EVERY company, person, or whatever has to decide for themselves if they are going to put in the investment to make the product, and hope it sells. THAT is business.

    I am sorry to hear your vests did not sell. They sound like a great idea. But it has nothing to do with Tom’s situation. Why? Because he is in a different situation. And he has already professed this product to be the Flagship of his line.

    As for how much Tom has to spend to MAKE the product…. That does not matter to the consumer, nor SHOULD it. What matters is if the final price for the product is what the product is worth to the consumer. What the manufacturer makes off of it is totally irrelevant. That is something the manufacturer needs to determine if they can live with, not the consumer. And if they can’t… don’t make the product. It is that simple.

    I don’t know a single company worth their salt that can say they never lost money. It is the overall track record of a company and its products that matter in the big picture, not just one product (unless that is all the company makes). Heck, I am a small business, but does anyone actually think I make money off of ALL the things I make? How about a set of wooden grips? Sure that is “small change” compared to the big numbers being tossed around here, but to someone NOT made of money, it is all relevant.

    Buy all the equipment needed. Buy a nice piece of Ebony (heck any wood), put in over 10 hours of hands on time in carving and finishing. Now do the math. Think I make money? LOL Even less so on standard domestic wood. 10 + hours of work for $45 (or so)? Oh yeah! I am going to get rich that way! WooHoo! (NOTE: This is NOT 10 + hours of product time from start to finish, like in casting products and cure times, it is HANDS ON time.)

    So, the answer is to diversify. Have some products that are able to offset the costs and income ratio. This is basic business here, nothing special.

    I agree with folks that people just need to wait for the product. But much of the other arguments being brought up are simply not relevant to the issue (IMHO). They are simply part of doing business and manufacturing, and can be applied to ANY product. Tom knows this, and anyone who makes and sells products do as well. But you can’t come back and say “But so much money is spent on the product… etc. etc. etc.” and expect people to care. Because they should not care. It is not their responsibility to care. It is the manufacturer that needs to care. Just like with any other product, be it cars, houses, plumbing, etc.

    While we can sit back and discuss all the intricacies and finer points of the process (of investment, manufacture, and sale of a product), they are simply not relevant argument points to be tossed at the consumer. Now, lags in production of parts by3 parties, R&D times and processes, and the like are good arguments to present for a delay in production… not how much it costs to make an item.

  16. #76
    The Frymarker Guest
    Nice post, but honestly… who cares?
    Sam, to be honest, I have had it with you. You are such a mindless blow hard.

    I guess everyone else can have their views and opinions on this forum but when it comes to me you seem to have a problem.

    I wish you the best with your products when and if they ever do come out.

  17. #77
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    Originally posted by The Frymarker


    Sam, to be honest, I have had it with you. You are such a mindless blow hard.

    I guess everyone else can have their views and opinions on this forum but when it comes to me you seem to have a problem.

    I wish you the best with your products when and if they ever do come out.
    You conveniently took one sentence that is CLEARLY not meant to be taken out of context (read the next line), and want to act all hurt by it. That was not my intent.

    Heather, I don’t think I was rude to you. If you thought so, I apologise.

    I thought I laid out a good argument that costs were not a relevant issue for delays… which was the main gripe by some folks on AO.

    As for what you think of me personally, if you feel I didn’t have a valid point state so and why. After all that is exactly what I did. I didn’t comment on you personally, nor ever have on AO. That would cause sides to be drawn because folks would feel the need to stick up for either party… and that is not needed.

    And as for my products ever coming out… strange thing to say since I already sell my products, online and in actual stores. I don’t know what your intent for that statement was, but whatever…..

  18. #78
    The Frymarker Guest
    blah blah blah

  19. #79
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    Originally posted by The Frymarker
    blah blah blah
    LOL

  20. #80
    The Frymarker Guest
    LOL
    Coming from the KIng of Last Words

  21. #81
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    For no dealers ordering them. I have been is stores and ask about them and they look at me like I have 3 heads. I have to tell them all about them. If there was advertising for AGD products there mite be some orders.

  22. #82
    Originally posted by The Frymarker


    Coming from the KIng of Last Words
    Think you could do a little better with the come back there.

    I rarely agree with Sam and usually have problems with his posts but I actually agree with him here. God forbid you have to many customers and they want to spend their money and buy your products... I remember you saying you got out of the grip business because you had to many customers and some "mean" ones. Then you complain you didn't have any customers for your vests. From the description it sounds like a normal business and maybe you just weren't cut out for it.

    -Tron

  23. #83
    Originally posted by rpm07
    For no dealers ordering them. I have been is stores and ask about them and they look at me like I have 3 heads. I have to tell them all about them. If there was advertising for AGD products there mite be some orders.
    Same here. I went into my local store asked about an AGD Flatline. Even asked if they could order it there and I would pick it up. They thought I was talking about some barrel system. I finally explained it to them and they said they would look into it.

    Then I bring my mag in there (RT Pro) and I still get the cockers are more accurate, they sound like nail guns, or they just suck with out a valid reason. Rogue gets the same treatment but probably more so because I have a Timmy and a cocker so I guess that gets me off the hook a little.

    When the LX came out, I was all happy and brought it in and they said cockers did the same thing with LP. I was like um stick ur tongue in the cocker see what happens.

    When the Xmag came out I talked with them about it and I get the deer in the headlight stare. Even if AGD can't get them out and will never have them reach more then 50-60 a month maybe a flyer will do them some good and will educate the stores. In return for ordering them AGD could post the phone number, location and web site of the store on a seperate Xmag dealer page. I am glad the info is on AO but I never saw the link with the info on Xmags for sale, or I would of picked one up instead of my Timmy.

    I would even be willing to get you flyers at cost...

    -Tron

  24. #84
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Long Island NY
    Posts
    1,872
    Originally posted by G-Rock
    [a Timmy (suck, just a souped up spyder
    Chris Geiger [/B]
    OMG ignorance! i am all for mags, heck i used to own one, but thats like saying a mag is just....

    a souped up blowgun lol
    Good Buyers: rhetor22

    "AHHH Yet another "long" time cocker user wakes up, and comes to his senses. What can I say, Welcome to the intelligent side of paintball." - Creative Mayhem
    E-Mag with lx for sale!!!!! HERE!!

  25. #85
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    SE Georgia
    Posts
    179
    I think there are many good points made here. I also think that the originator's plan was to explain the company's situation not his personal feelings. Its not the consumer that is at fault for the demand, its the manufactures for not meeting the supply. Why not just leave it at that. Its like a company saying, "hey we don’t want your money to pay our employees". As far as not making money on the X-Mags, wow, I really find that hard to believe. I am confused about just who "owns" the rights to AGD! If the UK will only ship 30 per month, then have them made in Japan. Ever hear of Makino, 5 axis milling machines, they make them. I bet they would be glad to pick up such a offer. My point is, its only good business to met the demand with supply, or people will go somewhere else to spend their money. That includes me. I look at things like this very hard when it comes to me shelling out 1500 bucks just for the marker. There is nothing that upsets me more than seeing "OUT OF STOCK" for MONTHS. You might call that smart business practice, I call it greed.

  26. #86

    I think its time to discontinue

    the X-mag. If the demand is not there and it causes such discord among customers and companies (AGDUSA/AGDE), remove it from the product line. To be frank, there isn't enough differentiation from a ULE mag to justify its price anyway. Its a great first effort, but it needs to go back to the drawing board. First, the battery MUST be redesigned; infact, the whole grip frame is incongruous with the beautifully sculpted body. Secondly, are removable breaches really worth the extra money and headache? I mean, there seems to be two types of people: those that hate the warp and those that love it. Those in the first camp FAR outnumber those in the second. If the warp doesn't sell that well (as stated by TK), then why go to all the trouble to design a body that meets the demand of both? The bottom line is the warp was an idea ahead of its time, but time has caught up with it. HALOs and others now meet or exceed the performance, and if AGD doesn't see fiscal incentive to redesign it (as stated by TK), then what's the point? Use the lessons learned in this fiasco to build a new, AGDUSA designed and approved X-mag--and don't tell us a thing until its in the stores! But until then, meet the demands for the ULE products, which clearly DO have a strong market; too many resources are being wasted on a product that doesn't sell at the cost of those that do.

  27. #87
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    IN -- USA
    Posts
    9,299
    To that I say

    BAH!

  28. #88
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    The dark side of Hell, FEAR THE "X", Rage Unchecked
    Posts
    829
    I read Tom's post and soime of the others, but not the whole thread. I don't care whether I know all about AGD stuff before it comes out or not. I also don't mind waiting for a gun that I think is the be-all-end-all of guns. I love the X-mag, with unrivaled passion. No, I am not kissing Tom's ***. I bought an original Superbolt. This forum is a special resource that flows both ways. Tom and AGD can get a feel for what the players want and we get to see spiffy new stuff before it comes out. If you don't like to wait or you don't think that the X-mag is worth it, go somewhere else. I think that it is. It is a beautiful no nonsense, no bells and whistles caning machine. If you complain about the gun then it is probably not what you are looking for. For the rest of us we can wait and get what, we feel, is a well thought out, well designed, well constructed gun.
    e·vis·cer·ate v. e·vis·cer·at·ed, e·vis·cer·at·ing, e·vis·cer·ates v. tr.
    To remove the entrails of; disembowel.

    "You'll still blame your failure on tiny little balls that don't functon properly." Captain kRYSYS of team plank walkers

    Harbingers of your dying breath

    Black to Red X-mag
    Black ULE-mag
    Evolved Ironman Matrix
    Tri fade E-class Orracle
    Black to Green Splashed Species
    Black to Blue AIM Jam Intimidator

  29. #89

    "go some where else"

    I love it. What do you think is going to happen when people start taking that advice? No X-mag, no Emag, and no AGD. Telling people to "go somewhere else" is a very bad idea, and I am dismayed that AGD would promote suggestion as a real option. "You have to wait for quality, everything else sucks". Sorry, but that lists right up there with cockers shoot farther and straighter; its AGD's own brand of hype. There are alot of quality markers on the market, and they get bettter every day. Keep telling people to go somewhere else, and you know what? They just might do that. And as far as quality is concered..."cough" first batch of ULE bodies "cough" superbolt "cough"

  30. #90
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    At the bar, having a beer eh?
    Posts
    3,634
    Tom, I for one don't have a problem waiting for a quality product, which by the way, AGD excells at. Once my Xmag is made I will have to wait yet again for it to clear customs and te border and then shipped.. all told about 2 weeks I applaude you on your willingness to look at everyone's complaints and try to wiegh the pros and cons of the situation, so what if people are *****ing about waiting. They KNOW the are getting the BEST the paintball community has to offer, so why worry? Like I said, I've been waiting for my Xmag, I don't have a prob with that, what i do have a prob with is poor quality and price. If you have an item for sale at some ridculous price for poor quality no one will buy again. Here you have the most advance piece of PB hardware ever made, it takes time to manufacture, if people can't understand that, then let them go buy another piece of equipment(we ALL know they WILL be back)

    My .02

    CM

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