ULE Trigger, Can You Shoot It Right?

[AGD]

Trigger Happy AO'ers,

A new issue has become apparent with the lightweight trigger. With lowered reactivity, it is much easier to short stroke the trigger and "chuff" a shot. Virtually everyone that picks the gun up for the first time does this.

The problem is that a chuff pushes a ball into the barrel where it sits there and the next shot blows the hell out of it. Now your barrel is dripping with paint. I am particularly worried about this because most people will think its a trigger problem or bystanders will see the guns suddenly breaking paint.

If we put more reactivity back in we can solve the problem but the gun will be illegal in many tournaments. Because the trigger is so light, turning down the pressure doesnt help.

I have no desire to go back to having a paint blending rep. Our chopping problems were caused by the exact same thing. So I ask you, can you learn to shoot this trigger?

AGD

[painball]

tom if it means I'd be able to have a near electro trigger on a mech gun then by all means yes

[Tunaman]

I need to test one out Tom...I will have to make a decision as to whether its worth it or not. Blenders we dont ever need again. I say scrap the project if this is gonna be an issue...but I need one to test with the boys around here please.

[Manuel_FZR]

I really like a verry light trigger - if this one is mechanical the better it is. But what I like much more is a gun that chops NO paint ... so I would prefer the no-chop-gun - then with a electro trigger.

just my 2 cents

[shartley]

This does not surprise me at all. I too would be worried about it.

I personally don’t see the need for a super light trigger UNLESS it can be without problems. The IntelliFrame is already an outstanding trigger/frame setup. The fact that it ISN’T super light helps me a lot. It allows me to really go to town and yet still FEEL I am shooting something.

If it was me…. I would scrap the idea or put it on back burner at the least. At least you have given it a try and found it to be problematic. This does not mean you can’t work on it at some later point, but with your solving the “chopping” problem (which I never had in the first place) with your latest upgrades the mere appearance of getting back into a paint blender (for any reason) is a step backward.

I am sure folks will come on and say how they will be willing to learn the new trigger and they WILL learn it, but I think we both know that what is SAID and what will HAPPEN are often far between. I envision SOME taking the time to learn the trigger, but most giving it a try and after making those around them THINK the marker is a total Paint Blender, will give it up and the damage is already done. I think the vast majority of consumers will not want to “learn” how to shoot it since they can pick up any number of other markers and shoot them just fine…. even if after learning how to shoot it they may shoot faster.

It is up to you… I am just giving one side of the issue. It isn’t my reputation on the line………….

[hitech]

Originally posted by AGD
Trigger Happy AO'ers,

A new issue has become apparent with the lightweight trigger...it is much easier to short stroke the trigger and "chuff" a shot... So I ask you, can you learn to shoot this trigger?

I could probably learn to shoot it. However, I WOULD short stroke it from time to time. Does it always load a ball when you short stroke or does the level 10 reset sometimes?

If it were me I would be very worried about a bad rep. with this issue.

[Thordic]

I want high reactivity and the super light trigger Down with the oppresive trigger police!!

[adam shannon]

if its adjustable...make it a kit. if you can handle it with less reactivity then set it up that way...if you dont care if its really reactive since you dont play tournies then you can have it short-stroke free.

i would buy 5 of what i shot at the megameet right now.

[maglover52]

i want one!!!!

[Evil Bob]

Originally posted by Manuel_FZR
I really like a verry light trigger - if this one is mechanical the better it is. But what I like much more is a gun that chops NO paint ... so I would prefer the no-chop-gun - then with a electro trigger.

just my 2 cents

It doesn't "chop", it is simply double feeding, the "chuff" doesn't have sufficient air to shoot the ball out of the barrel, but it has enough to push the bolt and move the ball beyond the chamber into the barrel, allowing a second ball to feed right behind it, the end result is you have one ball colliding with another, if you're lucky, they'll both shoot out (which is very rare), but it will usually obliterate both balls leaving you with a nasty mess to clean up. Lvl 10 will not prevent.

Tom, I'd prefer enough reactivity that the trigger will return, but not so much that you can easily sweet spot it, it should be equal between the force required to pull the trigger and the trigger return.

-Evil Bob

[Hexis]

I Vote for reliability over a slight performance gain.

Is there a way to limit trigger travel so it has to reset to an initial position before it will go backwards again? I thought about that back with my level 7 valve.

[gibby]

The thought of getting electro like performance out of mechanical guns was awesome and it excited a lot of us. One of the selling points about my mag today is the fact that it doesn't chop a ball. Before, I bought the level 10 mod, I had to try and explain to my friends or those who want to fire my gun the behavior of the trigger..what they should do or shouldn't do. For some, that didn't sit well with them.

Ever since the level 10, I just hand them my gun and let it speak for itself. With the Level 10, RT valve, and intelliframe, there were a lot of people who were impressed with how it fired, felt, and just the overall feeling of knowing you wouldn't chop as much as before.

It's great that TK is putting so much time and energy to try to produce quality upgrades for older and newer guns. Not only that, he tries to keep the price range reasonable. However, as mentioned above, if the upgrade is a step back...then I say put it aside.

[Miscue]

Is there any way to engineer an anti-chuffing ULE Trigger?

[Load SM5]

I had no issue emptying a hopper or 2 at the Megameet and I'm usually pretty stinky with mechanical triggers. If I can learn this trigger I'd think anyone could manage it.

[ntn4502]

I did short stroke once or twice when I tested it, but its something I would willing to learn for the lightness. That being said I know there will be many others that will be the opposite
I would keep it the same

[cphilip]

I would have to try it more than I have already. All I did was to dry fire it. And if its a problem then I realy have no real issues with the trigger like it is. I am used to Mag triggers so I assume at this point I could learn but I also do not think it may should be a stock item if this is going to be an issue for the unaware that just picks up a Mag for the first time. I agree that we do now want people back tracking on the Mags Chop myth now.

A couple of questions though...

Is it easily reversable to stock set up?

Is there anyway you can moderate the changes you made to achieve this so that it is about half way but doesn't do this double feed? (i.e. half the trigger pull we now have but more than what you so far developed. Still an improvement but that eliminates this new issue)


If its reversable and or can be moderated in some way those might be options.

[sarpadian]

My question would be how hard is it to learn how to shoot? I have always looked at it as learning the trigger mechanics of a performance paintball marker is just part of the game. I look at it this way, everyone knows that autococker chop paint if you short stroke them as well. However they don't have nearly the "paint blending" reputation as the automag. Perhaps a beta test on AO would be a good idea in order to gauge the amount of difficulty we have with the chuffing problem.

[Frank (the spank)]

Must be why in the video you are really letting your fingers forward before you pull again.

Tom... whenever there is a problem, you fix it in what seems like overnight and do such an awesome job with it (lvl X).

Can't you make.. some sort of anti short stroke? Such as, you cannot pull the trigger until it goes forward all the way, like it locks you from pulling the trigger again until it has been released all the way. Like the rod has small teeth on it and a lock thats released when the trigger goes forward, but if the trigger is not all the way forward the lock stays "clamped" and will catch on one of the teeth if you try and pull it without letting go forward.

Eh?

I bet it would be easy for you to do that. But... people need to learn how to pull a damn trigger, it's not that hard. And you NEED this new trigger.. a trigger that makes all mags have the pull of an electro? Damn.. I wanna buy stock in AGD, lol

[Jack & Coke]

Originally posted by shartley
...the mere appearance of getting back into a paint blender (for any reason) is a step backward...

I agree 100%

"chuff", "short stroke" etc. (which equals goo filled barrels) are things I hate most about the old skool mag trigger system. Something I never got on my M98 (sear tripper) -which by the way, is a great trigger for a low end mech!

The reactivity (legal/illegal) of the RT valve solves most of the "short-stroke" problem... I-Frame helps too.

[paintballbeaver]

I guess its one of those situations you should put out a beta model and let a select few (me please me) test it out and give a response on how it performed and then if it short strokes or chuffs alot after only a couple times of use dont make any more its your option but my advise would be to let about 100 be release and then do a survey or follow up on how they worked and see if people can shoot them and how long it takes to learn >>> I dont know if that made since but thats my input i would relaly like one of these

[TecnoRobo]

This is just me, but i had trouble with my mag before level 10 and short-stroking. A lighter trigger would be alot worse for me then.

For me i'll just stick with my classic valve, and when i get an x-valve, if the trigger kit does come out, i wont get it.

Its a guy like me who would soil the mags rep

[Cryer]

I'll learn. I'm good at that.


yeah... definatly good. definatly...

[Cryer]

But honestly what I think is best for your company (and I don't want to overstep my boundaries here), But like Sam said, put it on the back burner for a while until there is a way that you can make it truly (in your own words) "idiot Proof".
In this sense, its not who's behind the Mag, its who's watching him. Not everyone will learn this new trigger before taking it outside and potentially damaging your rep.
That would be a bad move, especially considering the recent release of all these new eye-catching products that are starting to change the way people look at AGD: Level 10, X Valve, ULE mods, Xmags, etc.

It hurts me to say this, as I was looking forward to this as much as anyone, but: It's not ready. If you need to ask a question like this, then it is not ready. Don't trash the project (PLEASE!!! ), just look for other ways to change the characteristics of the trigger.

[Fritzy]

Tom, I believe history has proven that a majority of players will not be able to "learn" to use the trigger properly. I was one of those RT owners who never chopped much paint. I did not run a particularly high pressure into the gun to keep it from being too reactive. I also did not fan the trigger (bad idea before LX). However, most people attempted both of these things on a regular basis, often in conjunction with each other, even though they knew the result was likely to be soup. The blame was then placed squarley on the equipment.

I believe the same thing would take place here. LX cannot account for double feeds. Players will be focused on the "near electro trigger" portion of the marketing and trying to make it a reality. If they can't use the trigger however they want (walking, fanning, short stroking...) or as fast as they want and effect a successful shot, they will consider it a failing of the product. After all, it doesn't matter how you activate an electronic trigger, the effect is the same...

If there is not a way to keep duff shots from causing double feeds you need to eliminate the duff shots. Sounds like this can only be accomplished through increased reactivity. I would not mind this approach, as I am mainly relegated to non-tournament ball at this point in my life (married with 2.5 kids :-). This could be a low cost alternative for acheiving high ROF, and I am not worried about tournament legality. For those who want to play in tournaments, buy an emag...I love mine...

I agree with Tunaman, the worst thing you could do is introduce a new way to chop with a mag. The old "salad-shooter" stigma is still there (LX is slowly chipping away at this, but not real fast) and the slightest bump in the road could erase all the gains you have made in this area.

[Aegis]

I just played in my first tournament using a level 7/intelliframed RT Pro that I bought the night before. Broke one ball all day, only because I forgot to turn my loader on. First game jitters. The classic mag was my first paintball gun and I never had a breakage problem. I think this was due to several years of competition using double action pistols - you can short stroke those as well.

Guess what I am trying to say is you should be able to learn to shoot it, but I appreciate your concern.

Question would be, if you do "chuff" and get off the trigger in time, what do you have to do to get back into the action?

[Cryer]

Is the "chuff" still a problem if you don't lower the reactivity? If not, then leave it as is for now. That was kind of a side project involved and not really the main point right? Allow for slight user adjustment to raise the reactivity if they're having a hard time getting used to it.

[rehme]

i think you should only sell about 10 or, the lucky ones would be a beta testers, and would report what they thought about it. if they were able to learn the trigger then just about anybody could then. even if this did take another month or so i think it would be beter to beta test than to take a step back and get a bad rep. again


just my .02 cents

[lamingo]

i agree with cryer

[tmnothing]

Alright I'm not real familiar with tournies but TK said if they raise the reactivity then it wont be allowed in most tournies. Reactivity isnt allowed in tournies? Or is there a way that it is measured and a limit is set? Would my x-valve be tournament illegal? I'm just starting to get into tournies and I dont wanna show up to my first one and find out my gun isnt legal.

[coolcatpete]

i never chop paint with my mag it only happends when my friends use my gun. i first had an brass egeal sameri (heavy trigger pull) that was what i was used to, then i got a spyder imagine (light trigger pull) i got used to barrly pulling the trigger and now i am used to my clasic mag, and i still dont chop paint so i have gone through lots of changes so i think i can learn. tom what you should do is make it a seperate upgrade kit not distribute them through stores(only from th site) then not give a descrition so only the people that know what it is will buy it. If they buy it they know it will be a blender if they dont get used to it. Tom k. i give you my total moral suport on this project. I dont care how long it takes you just get it out on the site and if it gets a bad rep take it off