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Thread: ?? What`s Fight Club..?

  1. #31
    shartley Guest

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    I know noone here knows me, but I have been visiting for some time. The thing about this string (and topic) that confuses me, is that everyone seems to miss one crucial fact….

    YOU HAVE RULES AND MODERATORS FOR A REASON!

    What does that mean? You can not use the excuse that the “Fight Club” is designed to be pure logic and great information, void of all off-topic posts, trollers, flamers, and general idiots. To an outside viewer, it IS an elitist group, no matter how nice you want to put it. And I am shocked that such intelligent people can’t see that.

    What a moderator does is MODERATE! Simply put, moderators need to do their job, or NOT BE moderators. Moderators are charged with controlling their Topics and modifying or deleting any posts not relevant to the topic or against your basic rules of posting.

    Am I the ONLY one who knows how to run a Message Board System? (Note: yes I moderate them as well. Heck I moderate some boards that I know NOTHING about the subject matter. Knowing the subject helps in adding TO a conversation, but is NOT needed to be a good MODERATOR.)

    In short, “fight club” was a good idea, but one not quite thought out from all angles. This also surprises me, being that Tom was the one to put it in action. Would you design a new marker and put it in production without doing studies (or at a minimum THINKING) on how it will be received by the populous and buying market? And not all “good ideas” need to be put into action, moreso one that has far many disadvantages to advantages.

    With that said, I have BEEN to your “fight club” and I must say that you can do as you please (it IS your board after all), but such fuss over THAT? LOL Let’s all take a deep breath…….

    Now… does anyone see anything there that is “better” or “more intelligent” than could be posted in the “general population”? LOL

    I don’t think Rooster is jealous, I think he is just a realist in a world of rose colored glasses. I urge Tom and his staff to SERIOUSLY reconsider their “club”. As a businessman, I know all too well about PR, and THIS is not a good PR move.

    (oh, and I keep reading “The road to hell is paved with good intentions.”… Why is that? Are there too few BAD intentions? LOL)

  2. #32
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    Big Red One; you have it right, the club will deal with in depth answers to in depth questions. The Main forum, while having some intelligent threads, becomes over-burdened with silly responses to serious inquires. (Yes, I am guilty of some of those silly answers too )

    No-one will abandon the other forums just because they are in the club, that's silly. We are too diverse in our thoughts and personal style to be so shallow.

    Lighten up Rooster, give it a chance before you call it a failure

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  3. #33
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    Rooster...aw come on why are you calling our pudding a cow pie :O( You havent even read the menu to see what we are serving. If I give in and say that - Fine - its an elitist forum - will it appease you?

    Shartley - wow - stealth attack under the radar?! Are our moderators doing such a bad job? I feel that we do know how to run a board. Some people opt to let thier members have a certain amount of freedom - as long as they act reasonable. When they fail to do so, is when we step in. There are other boards more militant about it - and thats fine.

    You post puzzles me because that really ISNT the issure. Fight Club is NOT a cure for OT, trolls, and flames of the general forum. Its more of a round table discussion between Tom and selected members.

    So when you attack my mods I get a bit defensive - especially since thier job performance has NOTHING to do with the existance of fight club.



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  4. #34
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    If the moderators are doing a bad job, then why would they leave a post like that hanging? Bad moderators would remove it immediately. Good moderators allow even ideas that are personally disagreeable to them to stay, so long as they are within the rules. Remember what it was like before AGD? The AO mods would delete whatever displeased them, and would attack the poster on top of it. Is this what you miss?

    -Miscue

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  5. #35
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    No, your right. I am the least capable one for sure of all those named. However it is my intent to also be the ordinary person to relay your comments. That's how I am approaching it. Outside of Chemicals and a few other safety areas my other contributory skills are weak. However my resources and investigative skills are as good as anyone out there. What I don't know I can find out about real quick. And a lot of my posts are observational and philosophical. If that adds something to the Fight Club great. If not then I will not post much and be off of there real quick.

    No offense taken at all. I fully agree with you. I have never claimed to be knowledgeable on all areas.

    [This message has been edited by cphilip (edited 07-18-2001).]

  6. #36
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    Thordic definitely has a point about the people selected to join this forum. If you want great paintball minds to collaborate/debate in a forum, I think you should have gone for the experts: Tom, Rob, JJ, John Sosta, manike, Bill Mills, etc. Choosing people who just happen to have 900 posts doesn't necessarily mean you will get the quality you expect. Since when did quantity ever equal quality?

    ~Fred

  7. #37
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    Good point Fred. It doesn't. But neither is the assumption that someone with 900 post was selected for those 900 posts either. Or that none of those 900 posts was worth anything. Most of them are not. But no one should be penalized for having fun here. Or not. I think Tom was clear that post count was not a selection criteria nor was knowledge of manufacturing PB equipment. I believe he is trying to create a stimulating group of people from a varied cross section of disiplines to spar around with. Not just PB guys. And in my case I have to think they wanted someone to make them all look a bit smarter and to ask them questions we all want to know but haven't been thouroghly discussed before.

  8. #38
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    I thought that that was the whole point of this forum. To let the unwashed masses ask the questions about things we don't understand. Why do we need you to be our go-between? I repect your opinions, but this all seems to be about seperating us from the people that we have been so excited to communicate with. All conversations about new products and tech tips and all of those things have been well recived, and have very few Joe "New Guy" Doe replies that say stupid things like "Mags suck anyways so why waste the time?" All of the replies made to our more esteamed members have always been for the most part insightful, and for the least part inquisitive.

    I'm not a power poster, or a tech, or even a guy with alot to contribute, and I'm sick of seeing posts go down the drain becuase of "How Old are you?" posts. This can't be the best solution.

    [This message has been edited by Rooster (edited 07-18-2001).]

  9. #39
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    Ok

    to Rooster and shartley -

    The only people that really seem to be having fits about this is you 2. There are people that have mentioned they didn't think it was the best idea and they left it at that.

    Rooster - you seem to have a particular burr up your bum about this. Let's put it this way, the people that show an insight into the working of paintball guns, air system or in general have good posts on a regular basis they get the chance to show what they know in a forum with peopel that do this for a living. If they in turn abuse this they will lose it.

    They idea is to have very deep discussions in a forum that wont get cluttered with fluff post.

    I WANTED an few extra forums to help clean up the main forum but some of what I had suggested was shot down. Tom wated to try this to see how it works if it causes too much of a problem with the users of AO then we will change it.

    We are looking at a few new forums, one for doing some archiving of good threads, FAQ's, and general knowledge stuff.

    A Tom ProtoType forum again I think this will be more of a Archive because the main post for that will be in main and then moved to the Archive.

    We try to let people have a basically free run of things. Hence we dont move a ton of post, dont typically have to edit many or delete many. I think I have killed less than 10 threads, and edited less than 20 post. I have moved a few.

    Now that post counts are up we need to start poking poeple to post to the correct forums. But as it looks now there is a TON of cross posting and we need to clean that up a bit.

    But we do what we are told, we talk and email back a forth and we over all try to make this a fun place.

    There always seems to be some people that can't see past thier nose for the betterment of thing for the group, because it dosent fit into thier precived roll of things.

    You have had you say, and we have noted it, move on to something else and stop harping on this. Use your energy for something other than this.

    -Robert

  10. #40
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    <font face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Rooster:
    Why do we need you to be our go-between? </font>
    You don't and if you chose to not take advange of my offer I won't. maybe I phrased it wrong. Sorry I got in now as a matter of fact. I never lobbied for the idea nor the position. Others put me up without my urging. But since I did I am trying to make Tom's idea work. For him. Go back on the original post for the idea and read my input. I don't expect you to to respect me and my experience that I can give to it. I expect to have to earn that. In the mean time I offered and you chose not to accept it. Enough said about it from me.


    [This message has been edited by cphilip (edited 07-18-2001).]

  11. #41
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    <font face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">Originally posted by Rooster:
    manike, unless im mistaken, and i often am, you are the guy who writes for warpig about European events. If writing regularly for the biggest paintball information site on the internet isn't being in the industry, i don't know what is.</font>
    Hi Rooster, You are not mistaken that is me.

    I do write articles and send them into warpig exactly the same as I write huge posts on lots of different boards. They are all submitted voluntarily and it's upto the webmasters of such boards if they allow my articles/posts to be read by all.

    The articles I write for warpig are done voluntarily in my free time. I do not get paid for them. I do not even get expenses for them. It actually costs me quite a lot sometimes to be able to write them. I write them to be part of paintball and to try and help improve paintball for all. Exactly the same reasons I post on boards like this. If we all here are posting our views and showing pictures we have taken does that make us all part of the industry? I use warpig like I use this board, as a means to share pictures and information with people.

    If you wrote an article and submitted it to a magazine voluntarily does that make you part of the industry? If you write a letter to APG and they print it?

    Maybe it does? I am looking to be part of the industry but so far paintball has not paid me a penny (well apart from marshalling a local site... )

    manike

    p.s. One great point to this thread Rooster is that yourself and others who feel your way, are debating and seriously thinking about their posts. That's all good and is food for thought. It's not in FC but who cares, FC is causing good debate even in the main forum. (It's doesn't even matter what the debate is about in my mind).


  12. #42
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    I thought that we weren't supposed to talk about fight club. Didn't Tyler make the first two rules very clear?

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  13. #43
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  14. #44
    shartley Guest

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    How did I know the responses I received would happen? LOL

    #1. I did not attack Moderators. I made the point that it was mentioned about cross-topic posts, off-topic posts, etc. being an excuse used FOR having the “fight club”. I then explained why that excuse did NOT work. If the shoe fits… if not, why take offense? If your moderators are doing a good job (and I did not say they were not) then why would you take offence? You like to pick and choose what you READ and HOW you read it.

    You are now using opposing arguments to prove why the “fight club” is such a good thing, and WHY it was started? Sorry, webby, you can’t have it both ways. I personally think the moderators were doing fine, it was YOUR posters who brought up the issues directly under moderator control as being a reason FOR the club. That makes YOUR posters the people insinuating that your moderators were not doing their jobs, not me. I simply pointed this out.

    #2. I could care less about the “fight club” and if you have it or not. It does not personally bother me (as some have stated). Remember? I have been coming here for some time, and NEVER posted. I don’t have the need for “recognition” or to be put on some “paintball pedestal”… it is JUST A GAME. Sure some people make money off the game, but for MOST here, it is just another aspect of their lives, NOT their lives. I enjoy reading the posts. It helps me learn more about the sport and its equipment.

    I just offered another view to the situation. And as for Rooster and myself being the ONLY people who have a problem with it… Being that I don’t really HAVE a problem with it, that just makes NO sense… and I highly doubt that Rooster is the ONLY person who feels the way he does. More times than not people don’t want to make waves or buck the majority (or what they perceive to be the majority, which often is actually a more vocal MINORITY).

    #3. This was not a stealth attack. Webby, I have seen on more than one occasion that you tend to take offense at simple offhand comments. I am no shrink, but that seems to indicate a bit of self-doubt? Why the over reactions? It may help to keep in mind that your are not THE source for paintball information or posting, but ONE of the sources. In fact, you are not even the one I personally would choose as my TOP PICK, as if that matters, but I do consider you ONE of the top. So, deflate that ego a bit, and join the rest of the world. You will come across more intelligent, less pompous, and more secure in your abilities.

    #4. How about this one for OFF TOPIC? Why is it that everyone is impressed with the Paintball tests (in rifling the barrels)? No offence Tom, but that test fails as an indicator. I could go on with all the reasons why, but the MAIN one is that it is NOT an accurate indication of anything.

    You don’t build a spinning barrel and then use THAT information as your reason for saying the opposite of what the rest of the industry has already proven. Yes rifling does increase the accuracy of a paintball, but NOT as much as the total marker, the barrel is only ONE part of the equation. And since you will never have a marker that spins the barrel at some fantastic speed, the test is not scientific proof of anything. But I must admit you do impress those who like to look at NUMBERS and “scientific” looking equations. Remember the saying, “Numbers will tell you anything you WANT them to..”?

    When you test a jet in a wind tunnel, do you make the jet do things it would not (or could not) do? “Okay boys, now talk the jet and turn it around backwards.” “But boss, it will never GO backwards!” “I know, but I want to prove a point about drag.”

    To test this accurately, you need a lab. You need high-speed photography equipment. You need lazar marking devices. You simply need more stuff than would be both economically and rationally feasible. There are so many variables that worrying about ONE aspect in itself is actually self-defeating. If the USER feels that his/her accuracy is increased by one modification or another, and that increases their enjoyment of the game and actually winning games…. Isn’t that what matters?

    When the day is over, “perception” is what manufactures are after with ANY product. Sure they want good quality, but most know that there are limits, and perception sells more products than quality does (sorry if I burst some bubble with that one). Take a look at Mini-Vans… “Our van scored the highest in all tests run!” But what they DON’T tell you is that Mini-Vans are STILL some of the most unsafe vehicles on the road. LOL ( I have a big family so I own one myself… LOL) And what about AOL? Everyone knows that it is one of the WORSE ISPs out there.. but they sure have a lot of customers. So people buy what the THINK is best for them, or because they simply need it, in spite of any shortcomings.

    But then again, you are the one with the WARP FEED right? Why would you want anyone to think that barrel rifling could increase their chances of winning? You sell MASS and SPEED over accuracy. This is NOT a bad thing, but let’s be honest about it.

    #5. Miscue: Good name. It describes what your post was. No offense is intended, but you were a bit off. You are correct, a good moderator would NOT delete my last post. It was not a FLAME, and it did not insult anyone. A moderator’s job is NOT to delete any post that they do not like or agree with. Their job is to keep things within guidelines. And my post was well within any guidelines for just about any message board. It was an opposing view, NOT something deemed as “deletion material”. So with that said, you only pointed out what I AM saying. The moderators ARE doing their jobs, THUS it can not be used as an excuse for “fight club”. And sorry Webby, you said that “fight club” was NOT designed to take care of these issues? Then why were these issue even brought up in its defense?

    #6. “Fight Club”! Like I said, I have read your “great” club posts. All the information is OLD NEWS (and I am VERY new to the industry). Again, you impressed people who didn’t know any better. Great posts on oils? That information is available on just about any major Paintball Tech or News Site…. Ever stop in at Paintball Times? They not only have an extensive section on THAT topic, but barrels, paint, markers, fields, you name it. Am I advertising their site? HECK NO. What I am doing is showing one more source for information. Let’s be a little more honest please. And what is so special about ANY of those posts that could not be posted in General Population? Haven’t I been reading your “fight club” folks keep saying that you can mirror these posts in the General Areas? Then what is the point of the “fight club”? LOL

    #7. I have GREAT respect for Tom. I have GREAT respect for all he has done for the industry. But I also know he is a businessman. HELLO! Don’t you all see that? You think he took over this board because he simply loved it and it needed a new owner? LOL Come on, it was a great business move. He acquired a ready-made target audience for his product. This was FANTASTIC, good job Tom!

    So with that in mind, as with all things, there is going to be some mind games played. He will use this forum to showcase his business and products (even if you don’t see it). This is not a bad thing, it is GREAT! But those of you who have not figured it out yet, you need to open your eyes… new owner… same posters for the most part.. but NOT the same board. The underlying REASON for the board has drastically changed. This happens every time ONE company takes over a previously private (not corporate owned as this one is now) message board, club, etc. The SPIN changes.

    #8. Please don’t let “clique” mentality take over. The comments made back to MY post did not even address any issues I brought up, they were a knee jerk reaction to “protect” others in the “in-crowd”. And isn’t that what some feared would happen with the “fight club’? You on one hand strut around bragging how open these boards are, and how you like discussion.. is that only for those in the “clique”? Is that only for those who bring up issues or opinions that don’t differ from yours?

    Just the facts ma’am, just the facts. And none of the issues I mentioned were actually addressed in a rational manner, but in a defensive mode only. It brings to mind what happens when people say things that others do not like, but are the truth.

    Example: Man walks up to rusted out Ford Pinto and says to the owner, “What a piece of ****.” And then he walks away. The owner of the Pinto then says, “What a jerk! He is just jealous.”

    Keep in mind that the “jerk” walked to HIS decked out brand new Suburban and drove away. And the Pinto owner was just trying to make himself feel better by NOT addressing the fact that his car IS a piece of ****.

    LOL I could go on all day (well actually I can’t, I have to get back to work), but please…. Don’t shoot the messenger. LOL My intent was NOT to attack anyone, but offer another person’s views. I like to think this is in keeping with the spirit of your boards.

    Note: When I received a client in the Paintball Industry about 4 years ago (they have been in the industry now for 15 years), I listed off a bunch of things I felt the Paintball Industry (and they) would have to do to keep active and increase player growth. My client argued with me and said that I did not know the Industry and that it was different than other Industries… several years later… need I say it? “I told you so.” Business is business. Some will take this a “horn tooting”, but it is NOT. When it comes to business, I leave all emotions out, and deal with FACTS. It seems that with the “fight club”, this is not being done.

  15. #45
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    For my closing argument (its going to take some serious willpower not to reply to any rebuttals, becuase I like to get the last word, but I will give it my best effort.)

    I'm not willing to just take it on faith that this is all good. There are as many people that have posted against fight club as there are members in it. Could the challenge make people post better stuff? Maybe. On the other hand, why should it take a dollar on a string to get people to do something? Could it bring our best minds together in a place where they can influance the future of paintball? Possibly. On the other hand, it could segregate our community into the upperclass and the pleabs. Could lay-people gleen infomation from the round table discussion? Sure, and I probably will. On the other hand some people that wanted in are already resentful of the club and will learn nothing.

    I see all the pros being tossed around and no one is considering the cons (or at least not letting us know that they are seriously considering the possible cons). I am sure that AGD understands the value of testing something before using it. Unfortunately, putting *Beta Test* on it and saying give it two weeks to grow on you doesn't really make it a test. Its here now so really the options are learn to like it or leave. I don't really like being put in that possition, and thats why this bothers me so much.

    There were enough negative posts when this idea first came out that the plan should have gotten at least a little re-tooling. Since alot of people are upset that I only complain and never offer solutions, this is what I would have done.

    1. Have an idea to get industry type people together to go over issues they think are important (and since they are in the industry, if they think the issues are important, they likely are.)

    2. Main forum is getting crowded. If they post there, posts will get lost, ignored, etc. Two options exist, clean up the main forum, or make a new one. [now here, clearly the easier thing to do is to create a new forum, no extra modding needed, no need to try to force everyone to change the way they post. Is it the best thing? Thats kind of moot, the forum is here now, and I'm fairly sure it will stay.]

    3. Who to gets to post there? Now heres where I fervently disagree with what has transpired in the last 24-36 hours. First of all, industry type people are great. Bill Mills, (im going to get some nicks wrong, bear with me) manike, RobAGD, JJBrookshire, JohnSousta, and Mahog (as a mag customizer). I even understand why you would want to toss the mods in there, Webby, Army, Miscue, and BlackVCG. That is a completely objective way of putting the club together. Either work for AGD or the site, or be a major paintball industry member (i know thats a tiny bit subjective, but im sure it could be worded so it wasn't).

    To open up the floor to nominations is to open this club up to what all the nay-sayers feel it will become, a good-old-boys club. Thats where the problem lies, sooner or later, like it or not, someday it will become us and them. Has anyone considered what will happen when the majority of the people try so hard to get in, that you can't really justify keeping them out? Is it going to work to have flight club be where the majority of the membership is? And if you want to trim he membership, who do you trim? What if people try so hard to get in they show themselves to be better members than the mods, or the techs, or the industry personnel? Do you boot the old people, do you not let the new people in? Look at all the possibilities for bad feelings.

    4. Ok, the board is up, people are posting, but there is some dissention in the ranks. People are expressing concerns, people are upset, people arn't sharing the vision. There are a couple options here. A, make people see the vision. B, the vision maybe isn't quite what we tought it was. If its B, you go to your pull-the-plug contingency. If its A, the most absolute wrong method of getting people to share your vision is to tell them that they are blind becuase they don't see it. You need to systematically rid them of their fears, and prove your vision to them. Its not good enough to say the RT can shoot an unheard of 26 bps per second without shootdown without getting the robot trigger puller out and proving it. So far the method of trying to settle everyone down has been to say "look, its good, even if you can't see it yet." Sure people are posting intellegent stuff right now, the forum is new, they want to prove why they were selected. Is it only working becuase the forum is new? Who can say with 100% certainty? You have to present it as something that is completely unselfish, and completely for the good of all members, even the occasional poster who mostly just reads to try to stay somewhat informed about his sport. Is that a very high bar? Sure it is. Families are very close knit organizations, and i think calling AO a family is appropriate. But, as most of us know, it takes just a few small waves to drive a family to dysfunction.

    I personally think the flight club thing could have been handled better. Good idea, poor exocution. The family has changed, and dropping a forum won't change it back. Has it changed for the better? Maybe. I'm a pesimist by nature. I plan for the worst and I'm surprised by the best. Unfortunately when someone is planning something, they don't want to hear from the nay-sayers, it ruins their momentum.

    Will I let this go and give it a try? Let me answer that with a question. Do I really have a choice? Its either like it or leave I guess. And in the grand sceme of things, compared to all the help I've recieved, this is a rather small thing to deal with. So yes I will be here and maybe someday I will become so used to the idea that I will accept it, and maybe a long time after that I will come to like it. Its human nature to adapt to something, and grow anxious when its changed.

    And becuase of my fervent opposition I might be viewed as some type of piriah for the rest of my time here becuase i had the audacity to challenge the ideas of the powers that be. And then again I might just fade into the background again. Another face amoung the faceless crowd. But at least I wouldn't allow my self to be steam-rolled into something i didn't beleive in, and for a short time and even though it might have been in a negative light, I had an opinion and I wouldn't let it go even though others thought i was wrong. I can live with being wrong, but I can't live with not being heard.

    I want to thank all of you for debating this intellegently, and without resorting to name calling or flames. I encourage those that still feel paasionatly about this issue to continue to debate it. The only way you will be heard is to speak up. I still have the upmost respect for the AO patriarchs, and I hope this works for them, becuase we are a family, and their failure is our failure. But their success is our success, and hope to continue to see many more in the future.

    Good luck AGD, in everything.

    ::fade to black::


    [This message has been edited by Rooster (edited 07-19-2001).]

  16. #46
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    Ease up, shartley. Everyone has an opinion and one's is not more important than another's. You don't help your cuase by being mean or sarcastic. You help it by dillegently proving your points without resorting to name calling.

    Lets keep it civil.

    I'm done, i know i promised not to post, but one got posted while i was posting.

  17. #47
    shartley Guest

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    Rooster,
    I agree. Thank you. But I must have missed something…

    1) I never called anyone a name. I DID call “Webmaster” Webby, but only because it is quicker to type and I saw someone else call him that. As for putting up the idea that he may be self-doubting… sorry, that was a low blow. Needed? That is up to him to reflect on. If not, I am sure he will be self-confident and let it pass.

    2) I never intended to be “mean spirited”. Ever look at court documents? Stating FACTS is never mean spirited. A bit dry, but never mean… LOL

    3) I was only attempting to open eyes to different views. I love my Wife, I love my kids, I love my Parents, etc.. Do I agree with everything they say or do? Heck no. Do I tell them MY opinion? Heck yes. LOL

    I am sorry if I contradicted AGD Dogma. I think they are a fantastic company with outstanding products. I also think they have great intentions. BUT, I am not naive about business.

    I will however apologize for coming across as sarcastic. I personally like this style and it DOES grab attention. One of my favorite people is Dennis Miller… LOL No, I am not in his league, but I love the way shaking a cage a bit can cause dialogue.

    I know that text does not show facial expressions (yah, I know I could use those silly faces that come with the board… but I feel it takes away from what is being said), so for everyone who reads my posts…. Unless I SAY I am upset, I am posting with a smile on my face, sitting back sipping on my cup of coffee. (You think this, or ANY board affects most of our lives? Does it pay your bills, feed your family, buy your paintball equipment, etc.? Look to who may actually pay their bills with it… if that is not YOU, why even get riled? LOL )

    I like the saying: “Don’t sweat the simple stuff….. EVERYTHING is simple stuff.”


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