!!!MOVE OVER X-MAG 45BPS ... but wait FROM A COCKER!!!

[Infection5]

Originally posted by Dayspring
Not even that, but don't forget that NO valve out there besides the RT valve can do a FULL charged shot after 20+bps. Sure, the Timmy or whatever can hit a nice ROF. But their shot to shot consistency and velocity will be all over the place.

RT valve is STILL king.

That was true up untill this year. The speed can shoot paint at 30bps with no drop off.

[Doc Nickel]

Originally posted by Dayspring
Not even that, but don't forget that NO valve out there besides the RT valve can do a FULL charged shot after 20+bps. Sure, the Timmy or whatever can hit a nice ROF. But their shot to shot consistency and velocity will be all over the place.

RT valve is STILL king.

No, you have that wrong.

When the RT came out, it was the only regulator that could recharge that fast.

However, as far as a 'Cocker is concerned, who says you need a reg? Plug a tank of CO2 in there, straight from the bottle, and the only restriction to "recharge" rates would be the physical size of the air passages- which, I don't need to say, are far larger than the passages through most regulators- including the RT.

That would mean that the real, physical limit to a 'Cocker valve would be how fast it can open and close. I'd guess- and it's only a guess- that with 800 psi behind it (normal unregged CO2) it can open and close in less than 5 ms.

The RT reg is still the documented king, but there are almost certainly faster valves.

Doc.

[Daroy99]

I don't see the reason in arguing over such high balls per second. I mean, seriously, a gun is a gun, and who really needs to fire that fast? I hold my own with 8bps....and its fine.

[rx2]

From the first clip, which claims 45 cycles without paint, I counted 37 cycles in one second. However, I accidentaly copied my Photoshop screen instead of pasting my Pro Tools screen-shot into Photoshop, so I don't have the image. However, I can say without a doubt that it was at 37 cycles in the first clip. There may have been a point in which it was a little higher, or lower, but the maximum number of cycles in one second was 37.

I should note that the sound quality is horrid. Please, do not record clips in warehouses, parking lots between buidlings, or in dumpsters! It creates an echo that makes it harder to find the real cycles. In fact, to the untrained ear, it is sort of like cheating, as it makes the marker sound faster (like a guitarist using delay).

[GT]

Originally posted by Doc Nickel


The RT reg is still the documented king, but there are almost certainly faster valves.

Doc.

[Jack & Coke]

45?

Where's the beef?



Sure 37 is FAST! But what's with the false claims of 45?

[lack of grace]

Originally posted by Dayspring
RT Valve has been out for over 3 years. Hasn't been bested yet.

This is coming from one that thinks i am a metal head cause i have tattoos.

You are likely the biggest moron ive ever met...

[Dayspring]

Um... I met you ONCE. And talked to you even less than that. Thought you were a nice guy. Liked your Eblade. But calling me a moron? Tsk tsk. That's poor form.

Originally posted by lack of grace


This is coming from one that thinks i am a metal head cause i have tattoos.

You are likely the biggest moron ive ever met...

[lack of grace]

Originally posted by Dayspring
Um... I met you ONCE. And talked to you even less than that. Thought you were a nice guy. Liked your Eblade. But calling me a moron? Tsk tsk. That's poor form.

speaking my mind is poor form on AO? Because I don't have 5000 posts????

Back to the point.....You're a moron for thinking nothing will ever be released that is faster than a retro valve. That is likely the most rediculous thing ive ever read on these forums.

Think about it in lines of computers. right now the fastest processor in the market is what, 4ghz? how long till that is exstinct????

plenty of markers can cycle just as fast now never mind later.

[GT]

Originally posted by lack of grace


speaking my mind is poor form on AO? Because I don't have 5000 posts????

Back to the point.....You're a moron for thinking nothing

No its yout lack of vocab. No need to call people names.

[adam shannon]

Originally posted by Infection5



That was true up untill this year. The speed can shoot paint at 30bps with no drop off.

maybe im just trying to pick a fight...but isnt that no drop off except the first shot? i know 2 guys with first run speeds that are starting a team called FSDO.

[Dayspring]

1) You apparently got some sort of REAL issue. I suggest you deal. I haven't said one harsh word towards you at all.

2) As of right now, other guns can cycle real fast. Fine and dandy. But as of now, none of them as far as anybody knows is a FULL recharged shot at their upper limits. When the RT gets beat, that's cool. But it hasn't happened yet.

Originally posted by lack of grace


speaking my mind is poor form on AO? Because I don't have 5000 posts????

Back to the point.....You're a moron for thinking nothing will ever be released that is faster than a retro valve. That is likely the most rediculous thing ive ever read on these forums.

Think about it in lines of computers. right now the fastest processor in the market is what, 4ghz? how long till that is exstinct????

plenty of markers can cycle just as fast now never mind later.

[lack of grace]

Originally posted by Dayspring
1) You apparently got some sort of REAL issue. I suggest you deal. I haven't said one harsh word towards you at all.

No, I really don't. The only reason i said anything harsh to you at all is because you have no clue what your talking about (ie - "Not even that, but don't forget that NO valve out there besides the RT valve can do a FULL charged shot after 20+bps. Sure, the Timmy or whatever can hit a nice ROF. But their shot to shot consistency and velocity will be all over the place.

RT valve is STILL king."

One of the most retarded things ive ever heard on this forum.

Originally posted by Dayspring

2) As of right now, other guns can cycle real fast. Fine and dandy. But as of now, none of them as far as anybody knows is a FULL recharged shot at their upper limits.

You like your $1500 spec bodied emag. But again false. for example - angel speed, aka viking, aka excalibur, well tuned race or eblade, timmy, impulse, matrix, TIPPMAN!

[nerobro]

keep in mind that the mag can only recharge when the gun is DONE cycling. A cocker or spyder is recharging constantly.

a mag can do 26 without recharging all the time. That leaves less than 20ms to recharge the AIR chamber. :-) that would mean a cocker could do 52 with the same reg.

the RT is the fastest REG on the market... not the fastest valve ;-) the actual gun finishes it's cycle in 20ms... or thereabouts. (bolt travel to reset) about the same as a spyder but the doesn't need time to refill the air chamber.

[*ArKfEaR*]

Sadly its only 37 CPS, but reguardless its a constant consistant string of 37. No shoot down, constant shots, thats still amazing reguardless of false claims.

[nerobro]

*pats his spyder* I have a gun right here that can do it too. ;-) (though 45 is about as far as I'd say we're really "controling" anything at. the gun naturally cycles at about 50) IIRC palmer said something about the max cycle rate of an autococking gun using his components is on the order of 60cps... so.. we're still well short of the theroetical max you might get form a cocker.

the 20bps they demoed wasn't THAT impressive. Racegun has demoed their cocker at more than 22.

IIRC we've seen emags at 25 as well.

[])arKNe$$]

if you watch the start of the 45 bps video the bolt is not moying all the way back but it is still makeing the 37 bps sound i think its fake

[Jack & Coke]

not necessarily... it depends on the frame rate of the video clip.

A clip at HIGH video compression / LOW quality is usually at 15 frames per second.

A clip at LOW video compression / HIGH quality is usually at 30 frames per second.

Remember, the bolt is moving faster (37) than both of these rates...

If the bolt is moving faster than the frame rate of the video, you are going to see strange things. Things are are out synch and you end up missing the whole story visually as far as complete bolt movement is concerned.

Since ther's less information to digest on the audio side as opposed to the video side, the audio is compressed differently. You still "hear" everything, just as long as the sampling rate is greater than the ROF of the gun.

[rx2]

Speaking of the audio, I did notice that there were a few bad events in the clip. That is to say, while the data showed about 37 cps, and while it sounded good, there were a few cycles whose waveforms were pretty messy and weak. I wonder if there weren't a few incomplete recharges.

[Jack & Coke]

Is it accurate to draw conclusions or assumptions about recharge rate based on audio clips?

Aren't there too many uncontrolled variables which can lead to false interpretations.

The accoutic environment was not really ideal.

Also, what you are hearing (or looking at) are many things all happening at very fast rate.

The events which contribute to the audio spike you're analyzing are many and are all bunched together (i.e. block impact, hammer impact, air expelled, etc.)

Even the angle of the barrel in relation to the mic. Were the camera and gun handheld or mounted in a fixed position? (tripod)

Without measuring the volume of air being expelled after each shot, I don't think it's really proper or fair to say anything about the recharge rate... But that's just my opinion.

[rx2]

I didn't say that is was definately an incomplete charge. However, there were a few cycles whose waveforms were quite different from the rest, which were relatively uniform.

I observed the video, and the angle of the camera doesn't change such that it errs for one cycle and returns. Unless they are using a boom mic, then that can be discounted as a factor.

Now, I know that the recording was a bit poor, and I know that the cheap mics on cameras can be a little off at times, but in past cheap recordings I have seen where markers were fully recharging, even with all of the other considerations factored in, the waveforms were uniform. I won't rule this out, though, as it is logically possible.

You mention the back block, but if it cycles the same each time, then the back block striking the body would have to either strike at a different velocity, at a different angle, or not at all, in order to produce a different sound. If it is cycling completely, and properly, this probably isn't happening. If the change is due to this, might that not suggest that something did not function uniformly?

Now, a marker that is fully recharging, and fully cycling, should produce a waveform of similar magnitude and behavior on each cycle. This is not only in theory, but something I have observed in practice, as mentioned above. Since there are certain events that are not concurrent with the rest, one can say that it may have been due to an err in the performance of the marker.

So, while I am not saying it is definite that the marker is not performing, I am saying it is entirely feasible to think that there may have been some sort of deviance in the marker itself. I have seen and processed thousands of audio tracks in the studio, and, to me, that sort of deviance seems as though it could easily be attributed to the sound source performing out of uniform.

[Doc Nickel]

Exactly.

Nowthen, to continue the RT hijack, keep in mind that when Tom tested it, he was feeding it from a large industrial tank of nitrogen, through a large industrial welding-gas type regulator.

We'll presume for the moment he was feeding it 800 to 900 psi- recharge, of course, would have been even faster at 1,000 or 1,100 psi.

Now, remember that nobody plays that way. Everyone uses one form or another of screw-in tank or self-contained tank.

So, since no other reg is supposedly as good as the RT reg, and every RT is fed by a non-RT regged airsystem, therefore your RT (or ReTro, or Emag or X-Mag) is only as good as your supply reg.

So it stands to reason that, in actual use, the RT and it's variants are no better than any other regged system, since the lowest flowing reg in any system will be the ultimate limit to recharge.

Doc.

[rx2]

I can see it now...
Teams shooting steroids in order to make them strong enough to carry around industrial tanks and regs, so as to supply their ultra-fast markers. Hey, maybe then they will make it an Olympic sport!

[Smokee_2_7]

Thank you, doc.

It's about time that someone said that.


Carl