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Thread: BlackVCG's ULT Thread

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  1. #1
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    BlackVCG's ULT Thread

    First of all, this is a thread dedicated to the installation, tuning and operation of the Ultra Light Trigger (ULT) for AGD products. This can be purchased at www.store.airgun.com

    This on/off assembly will fit and is recommended for the following:

    X-Valves
    Aluminum RT-Pro Valves

    This on/off assembly can fit but is NOT recommended for the following:

    E-Mags w/ double o-ring top
    Micro E-Mags
    MiniMag AIR Valves
    68Automag Valves
    Classic Automag Valves
    HyperMags
    SmartMags

    This on/off assembly will NOT fit the following:

    Stainless Steel RT-Pro Valves
    Retro Valves
    E-Mags w/ single o-ring top
    Original RTs w/ Banjo Bolt valve

    Here are some pictures of the on/off hole in various valves to show the difference between single o-ring and double o-ring.

    E-Mag Valve with double o-rings. (Note the black quad o-ring which is special to the E-Mag only)



    Retro Valve with single o-ring. This valve will NOT accept the ULT.



    X-Valve. All of these valves have double o-rings and they are now coming installed on new RT-Pros. Both o-rings are removed from the valve, but you can see that the bottom does not have a step in it like Retro Valve. The gray spot at the bottom is just an unanodized spot.



    Here is the Classic AIR valve. The same valve used in Automags, Minimags, etc. This valve has always and will always be a double o-ring valve and will accept the ULT, but it is not recommended for use in the this valve. It does not recharge fast enough and thus it is too easy to short stroke.



    Sorry about the valve picture quality. It's hard to get in close and get a sharp picture and get enough light on it to show the inside of the on/off without making too much glare.

    ULT Exploded Parts View



    From left to right:

    On/Off top o-ring (Same o-ring as on/off center o-ring for RT on/off assembly)

    On/Off top w/ o-ring. (O-ring is same as Level 7 PT o-ring and on/off top outer o-ring in double o-ring valves.)

    On/Off center o-ring. (New part for ULT. Rubber o-ring, not urethane. Very small, do not lose.)

    Shims for adjusting sealing point of on/off top o-ring. (Same dimensions as Level 10 shims, but .005" thick instead of .010")

    On/Off bottom w/ o-ring. (Same o-ring as on/off top outer o-ring)

    On/Off pin support. (Install after on/off assembly is screwed together. Place grease around outside before inserting into on/off bottom to keep from falling out.)

    On/Off Pin. (Very fragile. Take special care when installing. Install so larger diameter head is at top of on/off assembly.)

    Videos

    These are some videos of me shooting the ULT on my XRTP. This is pretty much the first time I got out and shot the thing, so I'm pretty slow. I am wearing safety glasses, if you can't tell. Sorry about the extra time in the video of me turning on and off the camera. I was the only one around when I took these videos. Also, sorry about the plane flying overhead in the first video. Didn't even notice it was there until after I filmed the clip. At least I can fan the trigger now...

    Right click on the links and save them to your computer.

    http://www.automags.org/~BlackVCG/DCP_0942.MOV

    http://www.automags.org/~BlackVCG/DCP_0006.MOV
    Last edited by Bunny; 05-30-2014 at 10:43 AM.

  2. #2

    Question If a SS retro valve is drilled out?

    Black,

    if the SS Retro valves get drilled out to accept two o-rings will it work? Since this was not stated in your original post. Thanks!

    BK

  3. #3
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    Any RT valve with single o-rings that is drilled for double o-rings will work perfectly fine as long as it's done PROPERLY.

    I will not be drilling any valves for anyone, so please don't ask. There will be other people offering this service, but AGD isn't going to warranty their work.

  4. #4

    Talking Thanks!

    Just wanted some clarification...better now that after the 20th time being asked about it

  5. #5
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    Anything else I need to add, guys? You name it and I'll try to do it. Installation video I'd like to do, but we'll see if that's possible... I just have a digital camera that can take video, so setting it up to take a video of me installing the ULT will pose a challenge...

  6. #6

    Thumbs up Installation Pics

    Of course Jeff aka PBDaddy has put some up there so maybe if you could do the same it would be helpful. Thanks!

    BK

  7. #7
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    on/off support

    Could someone please elaborate in detail how we should be connecting the on/off pin and the support and inserting them, step by step? I have seen posts referring to loc-tite and grease being used and that we have to connect them after the pin is inserted in the on/off assembly and general instructions . Does this mean that once you've inserted the pin, and sealed the pin support to it on the other side of the on/off bottom, the two can never be seperated or taken out of the on/off assembly? I get mine today and don't want to make a huge mistake and if I'm correct in that by sealing the support to the pin it doesn't let the pn be removed from that point on. what happenes if it does get bent taking it out later on (adjusting shims when gets a new grip, rail, etc)? Can't wait to do this, just don't want to goof it up and not be able to play Saturday

  8. #8
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    The pin support just needs to slide into the bottom of the on/off and stay in there when you insert it into the gun. Once it's all gassed up it's "locked" inbetween the pin and the sear.

    The reason loctiting it has been mentioned is to keep you from having to turn the valve upside down to keep the pin in place when you insert it into the gun. The problem with this is, you'll have to break the loctite loose if you need to disassemble it.

    The only purpose of loctiting it is to keep it from falling out and I figure you can accomplish the same thing by putting a bit of grease on the pin support. Even some oil should have enough viscosity to keep it from falling out. Loctiting it is a stupid idea and only going to cause people headaches because they don't know how to properly use loctite or because they won't know how to get it apart without breaking the thing.

  9. #9
    personman Guest
    I have a question.
    When I got my .750 pin in the mail for my regular on/off, it wouldnt work until I shaved it down (I dont know what its at right now, I dont have any calipers) but it works perfectly if I shaved it down just enough..
    I ordered the ULT, will it be true for this? Will I have to shave it down?
    Also, I have a quad oring in my XValve.. I dont know if that normal or not, or if brad just put it in when he was installing it because it was going to go on my micro e-mag.. but I sold that and kept my X-Valve..

  10. #10
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    thanks

    Thanks BlackVCG, exactly what I needed to know. So no loctite, cool. I'll try autolube and just take it real easy putting the valve on the rail so I don't bend the pin. I can't wait!

    Oh yeah, quick followup: how many shims worked for you, and is there any benefit to using lvl 10 shims, like that if they are closer to .11 they can get the hysteresis closer than just using ULE trigger shims? With too many it'll just go into mad runaway right?

  11. #11
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    Remember. Using the shims can have the same effect as shaving the pin or using a shorter/longer on/off pin.

    You are changing the point at which the pin will seat in the oring. The more shims you add, in effect, it makes the on/off pin "shorter."

    Taking shims out will in effect be like having a "longer" on/off pin in.

    And all this is accomplished with the pin staying the same length.

  12. #12
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    So basically put as many shims as possible into it while it still shoots and doesnt runaway right?

  13. #13
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    Originally posted by BlackVCG
    Any RT valve with single o-rings that is drilled for double o-rings will work perfectly fine as long as it's done PROPERLY.
    Good to know. What about this situation. Say I have a Retro valve drilled out for the 2 o-rings, try the ULT and don't like it. What o-rings would I use with this drilled-out, non-ULT Retro valve?


    Super Moderator at Pbreview.com

  14. #14
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    Dayspring explained the shims well.

    Keep installing the shims until it has too much bounce. If you don't have enough shims, it will be too easy to shortstroke. Add one shim at a time until you like how the trigger is. The maximum number of shims you can use is six. The kit comes with two installed and three extra.

    I don't think there will be any problems with bending the pin. The pin support is larger than the AIR valve on/off pin in diameter and even if it catches on the hole in the mainbody, it doesn't have enough play in it to bend the on/off pin. Just make sure it's all the way in the hole before you slide the valve into the mainbody.

    Halliday- You can use the o-ring that is on the outside of the on/off top or the on/off bottom of the ULT. It's also the same o-ring as the powertube o-ring for Level 7. That o-ring combined with the old on/off top smaller o-ring you removed before you put in the ULT is what you'll need.

    Personman- You will remove all parts from your valve, including the quad o-ring. Don't worry about what you have in there now. As Dayspring told you, the shims will compensate for having to shave the pin.

  15. #15
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    Thumbs up

    Black, some people have mentioned some extra play in the trigger now...what's your opinion on trigger stops(i won't mention anything about trigger rod length)
    just trying to get as much info as possible before my ult comes in tomarrow

    great thread btw
    you're always the one i think of when i have a tech question
    (other than than Tom himself of course)
    keep up the good work
    TheDuelist "The problem is that Tom has developed the VW Beetle of the paintball industry. It's almost too good to change and far too reliable."

  16. #16
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    is the black o-ring supposed to fit inside the other white one? mine doesnt and i'm confused, someone help....

  17. #17
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    Has anyone noticed if increased input pressure will result in any more reactivity at all? I was wondering because I have a preset at 750 psi and my normal on/off doesent give much reactivity at that pressure, so I am hoping I wont have *especially* low reactivity.
    Cobalt DM4
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  18. #18
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    ULE trigger

    I got my on/off sent to me all set up ready to go, I think that's how they're coming now. I just popped that badboy in my gun and it was pretty good, threw another shim on and it was better, then I ran out of air cause I was at 900psi to start and spent 200psi because I kept shooting once and getting the bolt sticking forward and venting. Too many Lvl 10 shims had an effect with this, I guess because of less push resetting the sear to start, I don't know. Anyone else had that issue? The pin comes bonded with the pin support and in the ULE bottom too, not sure how AGD connected them (loctite?) haven't tried pulling it out yet. Have any of you who got it after the beta test fiddled with this?

    Still can't walk it, and I am definitely starting to consider the idea again of drilling a hole a little higher up on the sear to angle the pin, cutting a little stroke distance off but increasing the reactivity. The pull is so light but without a little shorter pull it's definitely not walkable. Anyone know how AGD gets their sears made? Do they do them inhouse or do they outsource for them? I'd love it if I could pay AGD a little more and have them punch the hole a little higher on a sear before they coat it and set the trigger rod just right for the new angle, keeping it within AGD standards. I'd be happy to pay a little more for it and let them know how it goes if they set it up so I don't have to modify it and risk hurting my baby (All-AGD ULE mag). Beta-test it basically. Can this custom work be done? And before this becomes suitable for another forum....

    How many shims is everyone with a ULE body/XValve/Stock AGD rail/Intelliframe setup using? I'm at 3, one above what they send it to you with. Anyone finding the need to use Lvl 10 shims with the on/offs they're sending now?

    Frankart, I have not fiddled with input pressure because I use a Crossfire set nitro tank, but the reactivity isn't bad, I haven't shot much but it comes back pretty fast.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by QUINCYMASSGUY
    I got my on/off sent to me all set up ready to go, I think that's how they're coming now. I just popped that badboy in my gun and it was pretty good, threw another shim on and it was better, then I ran out of air cause I was at 900psi to start and spent 200psi because I kept shooting once and getting the bolt sticking forward and venting. Too many Lvl 10 shims had an effect with this, I guess because of less push resetting the sear to start, I don't know. Anyone else had that issue? The pin comes bonded with the pin support and in the ULE bottom too, not sure how AGD connected them (loctite?) haven't tried pulling it out yet. Have any of you who got it after the beta test fiddled with this?

    Still can't walk it, and I am definitely starting to consider the idea again of drilling a hole a little higher up on the sear to angle the pin, cutting a little stroke distance off but increasing the reactivity. The pull is so light but without a little shorter pull it's definitely not walkable. Anyone know how AGD gets their sears made? Do they do them inhouse or do they outsource for them? I'd love it if I could pay AGD a little more and have them punch the hole a little higher on a sear before they coat it and set the trigger rod just right for the new angle, keeping it within AGD standards. I'd be happy to pay a little more for it and let them know how it goes if they set it up so I don't have to modify it and risk hurting my baby (All-AGD ULE mag). Beta-test it basically. Can this custom work be done? And before this becomes suitable for another forum....

    How many shims is everyone with a ULE body/XValve/Stock AGD rail/Intelliframe setup using? I'm at 3, one above what they send it to you with. Anyone finding the need to use Lvl 10 shims with the on/offs they're sending now?

    Frankart, I have not fiddled with input pressure because I use a Crossfire set nitro tank, but the reactivity isn't bad, I haven't shot much but it comes back pretty fast.
    sorry i'm just a little late on this...... LOL

    Luke here on AO does the ULT sear mod.

  20. #20
    ive been trying to find an emag but its not orking out to well and i was thingin about getting the rt ule im just wondering wat the trigger pull will feel like as in comparsion to something and what a stock one would feel like compared to something

    thanks.

  21. #21
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    Chuff!

    setup:

    CF ULE body
    AM/MM Classic rail
    X valve
    Lv 10
    ULT
    Intelliframe
    68/3000 Crossfire HPO

    i can not fire this trigger rapidly.
    please help!
    when i try to walk or fan the trigger it chuffs every once in a while.
    i know that this is because the sear isn't resetting fully between trigger pulls.
    when firing with paint, the chuff puts the ball halfway down the barrel and the next successfull shot makes soup.
    what can i do to fix this problem?

    thanks.

  22. #22
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    Ok, Ive been fiddling with my leaking x valved and ult, and it goes full auto. I have four shims in the ult and none in the lvl 10(havent gotten around to tuning it, I'm trying to fix the leaks right now). I am using a minimag rail and stock frame for testing. Once I get it going its going to have a nice hyperframe

    Any way, my mag goes full auto. I would think I would need more push from the on/off to reset the bolt. Would more or less shims do that. I have lubed the crap out of everything.
    "Don't stoned i'm shoot" -someoneiforget

  23. #23
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    I have 4 ULT shims and 2 LX shims. If I had an x-valve I could walk my trigger right now, its that light. My LX does stick a lot too. I'm going to work on that tomorrow and see if i can figire it out. I let you know if I come up with anything.

  24. #24
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    Black oring fits on TOP of the on/off bottom assembly. There's a little recessed section that it goes in. And then the pin goes through that.

    Originally posted by silentdeath55
    is the black o-ring supposed to fit inside the other white one? mine doesnt and i'm confused, someone help....

  25. #25
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    wow

    Wow, that's some serious shims silentdeath, and it doesn't go into runaway? Impressive work man. I ran out of air before really finely tuning it but when I get more air I will throw a few more in and see what I can do. It hasn't gone into runaway, just had that stick issue.

    The strange thing about the stick issue is it starts if I am firing and using my finger to stop the bolt firing all the way (raining outside and gotta respect the roomies by not firing the thing much). I went out of my apartment, actually fired a shot, and it was fine. Weird. But that was when I noticed the issue of a little pull on the trigger letting it vent. I think it's because I can go so slow with the trigger that I was able to catch the leak, it was only a minor one. But I took out a shim and will test it next time, I had 4 in the LX so I'm sure that was it. So I think I'm all set with that but it definitely came up once the ULE on-off was put in.

    I gotta play with this badboy this weekend! Any other great tuning tips coming up?

  26. #26
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    silentdeath is running a classic i believe, so no worries about runaway there...

    hopefully ill have a whole rundown of what i did tomarrow night
    i have some special plans

  27. #27
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    Originally posted by Jerhew
    silentdeath is running a classic i believe, so no worries about runaway there...

    Silentdeath - Is that true? Are you running the ULT on a classic valve? I'm considering doing the same thing but wanted to wait to see if anyone would give it a shot. Are you having problems with the valve not recharging quick enough?

  28. #28
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    It is true. I do have some problem with recharge rate. you probably won't get anymore firepower with this upgrade if you run a classic valve, but once you get the pull down you will hardly ever short stroke. The pull is extremely light though. I love it, but I cant wait to try it in an x-valve.

  29. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by silentdeath55
    It is true. I do have some problem with recharge rate. you probably won't get anymore firepower with this upgrade if you run a classic valve, but once you get the pull down you will hardly ever short stroke. The pull is extremely light though. I love it, but I cant wait to try it in an x-valve.
    what is he talking about when he says pull down??

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobsbarricades
    what is he talking about when he says pull down??
    He means once you get comfortable with the feel of the trigger pull and it comes naturally to you without having to think about it.
    The arrogance of other people annoys me. My own doesn't bother me a bit.

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