SEAR MOD: CHUFF less with your ULT, still SAFE for your BOLT

[Jack & Coke]

Sup y'all

I'm sure I'm not the first to do this, but like the wheel, it was an idea born out of nessessity... and an enjoyment of tinkering with things.

Although I'm getting more used to my new ULT on/off assembly, I still chuff a lot if I try to shoot really fast (i.e. fanning, twitching, walking).

I've spent a lot of time trying to fine tune everything with all different shim combinations. It has helped a lot, but I can still make the ULT on/off setup short-stroke (chuff chuff). Gawd, you should see me shoot a cocker... OMG! Cocker triggers and me don't mix

Anyways, I started looking at the trigger pull relationship to chuffing the ULT.

My idea is to shorten the pull without changing or affecting the sear-to-bolt lock-up relationship.

What I have done is alter the moment arm of the trigger rod. I used a drill press and a carbide bit to drill a second hole into the sear. The metal of the sear is tempered and VERY tough! I almost gave up on drilling!

By shortening the distance of the moment arm (0.15" up the verticle arm), it shortens the trigger pull travel by approximately 18%. However, this is at the expense of a greater trigger pull force requirement.

The initial results after a little bit of testing this mod:

- the trigger pull is shorter
- the trigger pull is heavier than stock sear and ULT on/off assembly
- the trigger pull is lighter than stock sear and stock RT on/off assembly
- much less chuffing!
- still can chuff-but mucho less...
- no damage to sear/bolt lock up relationship!

I figure, that under frenetic rapid firing, I am not letting the trigger fully travel the required distance in order to avoid chuffing. By shorten the required trigger pulling distance a small bit, I am able to reduce (not eliminate) the amount of chuffing I end up with while trying to shoot fast. This is at the expense of a super light trigger.

comparative scale:

Configuration 1
ULT on/off
stock sear
long trigger travel distance
light pressure trigger return force

= lightest trigger pull force, greatest chance of chuffing during rapid fire

Configuraiton 2
ULT on/off
MOD sear
shorter trigger travel distance
light pressure trigger return force

= medium trigger pull force, less chance of chuffing during rapid fire

Configuraiton 3
stock RT on/off
stock sear
long trigger travel distance
high pressure trigger return force

= heaviest trigger pull, minimal chance of chuffing during rapid fire

My goal was to tinker with Configuration 2 to fit my flavor/style of shooting.

I want to go from:

long + light pull + lots of chuffing

to

short + med pull + reduced chuffing

Some people may not chuff at all... that's nice! Then this post is not for them.

I'm just sharing what I've been tinkering with.

I don't think anything will malfunction. But you never know... after a few thousand rounds I'll report back and resurect this thread to post my field test findings. Of course, now that I'll be rockin' my brand new TUNAMAX, it'll be a while before I finish testing this mod...

NOTE: All of the standard precations concerning the sear/bolt relationship have been adheared to (i.e. sear still has full movement, the bump on the top of the sear still hits the body, there's still a gap between the sear rod and the trigger, etc.)

[Jack & Coke]

pic 2

[Jack & Coke]

calcs

[powerofthegospel]

Nice work man! I was readin about somethin similar to this in the workshop forum (i think that's what it's called). Seems to be a very effective compromise, hopefully it'll work for ya. As for me, i gotta wait on an x-valve, then a ult before i can try any of this. Still great to see people tinkering with their guns, that's half the fun! I love to mess with stuff on my gun too, it just usually ends up with me posting what i've done and somebody telling me why you can't do what i did.

Peace,
J.J.

[Jack & Coke]

Thanks

Like I said, this is just an experiment... no conclusions yet..

So far so good! The true test will be after a few days of paintball play.

[abaez]

Awesome jack. I'm having the exact same problem you are (chuffing during a sequence of fast trigger pulling) and I am very interested in your findings. I was thinking of going back to the regular trigger and selling my ult but I think I'll hang on to it and see how things turn out with your tests.

[rpm07]

keep us informed on how it goes

[Jack & Coke]

Thanks for the positive feed-back guys...

I'm currently drooooooling over my brand new TUNAMAX, so it may be a couple weeks before I can test anything with this sear mod idea... sorry

I have 3 stock sears to play with.

The one I drilled has the hole 0.15" higher than normal.

On the next sear I drill, I'll put to hole a wee bit higher (maybe 0.25" off-set). I'll have to look at how the trigger rod lines up with the trigger.

After I have 3 different sears (stock, 0.15", 0.25"), it should be more apparent what the optimal balance would be.

Like Tunaman once told me...

AGD designs and ships you a product that they feel will work MOST of the time. The setup may not be pushing the limits of high performance, but it works when you pick it up!

Just like the Level 10 set-up...

You can set-up the Level 10 kit so that it's ultra-high performance (i.e. strongest spring, loosest carrier), but it then becomes super tempramental. The tolerance for error becomes so small that the tiniest of things can make the gun konk out on you (i.e. o-ring leaks, bolt-stick, etc.).

I'm sure there is a limit how high I can put the hole in the sear before it starts to degrade perforance. It's a point of diminishing returns.

But that's the fun part about tinkering and experimenting... pushing the limits

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

Hahaha, yeah this is very familiar...

https://www.automags.org/forums/showt...threadid=94876

I was working on this too a month or two back, check out page 3 and 4 of this thread, I was unable to produce it though because you're right, drilling that thing is a pain. And basically the thread got about as much attention as a CD titled "Rosanne Barre sings the blues" and got totally ignored by anyone who could provide input or possibly produce it (with some exceptions like classicmagplayer who was smart) which aggravated me so I gave up on it. I am very happy someone came through with it, feel free to use my thread as a reference, we troubleshot many issues and came up with pros and cons. I would love to get my hands on one of these, let me know if you can hammer me out one and I'll paypal you the cost of the sear. And if you wanted to compare notes, shoot me a PM. Look forward to hearing from you and seeing how certain people view this idea now that someone has made it a reality.

Great work man, let me know how it goes. Did you have to change the sear pin at all to compensate for the new angle?

[Jack & Coke]

Thanks for the reference!!!

I guess I totally missed the boat on that thread

Originally posted by classicmagplayer
Ummmm this is to everyone that is thinking of using belts/gears to change the force or distance of the trigger pull....look at your sear, it is a lever. If you change the point where the clevis is attached to the sear you change the lever arm. Which changes the amount of force and distance required to pull the trigger. If you want a smaller pull, drill another hole right above(toward the sear pin) the one that the clevis is attached in. This will shorten the pull, but make it stiffer. If you want a long soft pull drill a hole right below(away from the sear pin) There isn't really enough room below the clevis to drill another hole, but who wants a longer pull anyhow? The trigger pull can also be change by changing where the trigger rod hits the trigger, that is why the benchmark frame has a longer pull, I think, never seen one in person. Both of these methods also require messing with the trigger rod length, which isn’t difficult, but it's not recommended by AGD. I'm not telling you to try this, but it’s a lot easier than a bunch of gears and belts. Oh yeah, one other downfall of gears and belts is friction, each thing you add would increase friction and stiffen the trigger pull more. Changing the mounting point of the clevis on the sear won’t add any friction.

LOL!

I'm about a month behind your guy's discussions... I feel like the guy how comes to the party late and starts telling a joke that was already told earlier in the evening.

Great thread by the way! Thanks for the link. Of what I've read, you guys have some good thoughtful dialog going on there...

I think drilling holes is good.

I think this is NOT as good:



It messes up the intelliframe relationship (i.e. microswitch)

Great stuff... I'm going to crash now. I'll catch up more with your thread tomorrow. I'm going to tuck my new Tunamax under my pillow now and go to dreamy land... (don't tell the wife!)

[Jack & Coke]

Originally posted by QUINCYMASSGUY


Great work man, let me know how it goes. Did you have to change the sear pin at all to compensate for the new angle?

Sorry, I forgot to answer your question...

I did not have to change the sear pin to compensate for the new angle.

There's so much room in the frame that the angle didn't matter too much.

The location where the trigger rod contacts the trigger could be raised a little. However, this would in turn end up defeating the purpose of drilling the hole in the sear

[billybob_81067]

they make these drill bits that are like masonry bits, only instead of the carbide tip it's an even harder somethin or other... lol, sorry I'm not sure exactly what the material is. But anyways I saw these at the Colorado State fair and the guy at the booth was drilling through ceramic tiles and files, and all kinds of crazy crap... It was cool. The only downside is that the bits are a wee bit expensive.

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

Thanks for acknowledging my previous work J+C, and even though you started telling the joke after I did, you're the one who actually made it through to the punchline (completion) so you definitely deserve credit for that.

The image you showed was an earlier one that was shot down quickly. The ones mostly involving drilling a higher hole on a sear and putting a diagonal edge on the trigger so the pin sits perpendicular to the trigger like it does in a normal setup is the material more relevant to this.

I'll look into the drill thing. My whole intention of the post was to draw enough interest that one company (AGD, Tuna, etc) would take it up and produce them standardized and maybe through a little R+D find the optimal setup. My stuff was all theoretical, but it looks like J+C is handling the R+D. Having a machine shop do one is expensive, and I wasn't about to when I wasn't even sure if it would work. It does (to all the doubters.. HA HA!) and having an AO member like J+C involved can only push the project along that much quicker.

J+C, I need to draw up the image and I can't while in TX on business (which I am till Friday), but I have an idea on how it can get to a 30oz (less than 2lb) mouseclick and still follow all the principles of this idea. I'll keep you posted.

Again, excellent work J+C, have fun with your new Mag and now that we made it a reality let's see where it goes. People, you like the idea, post and say it! That's what will get this pushed to be mass-produced. It would be a very inexpensive replacement sear mod if it went into mass production by J+C or someone. Definitely plenty of bang for the buck so make it known you like it.

[Jack & Coke]

QUINCYMASSGUY ->

billybob_81067,

Well, since our fair isn't for a while (LA County), what kind of bit would you guys suggest I buy if I went to Home Depot?

[Jack & Coke]

What's the trigger pressure of:

1. stock sear + RT on/off

2. stock sear + ULT?

how many ounces or pounds?

thanks

[xrancid_milkx]

Heres a question that might have already been asked, but

What where to happen if you did this mod WITHOUT the ULT (with retro/xvalve)?

I assume a smaller trigger pull, but heavier pull?

[Jack & Coke]

Your assumption is correct!

The ULT is what makes this mod attractive... at least to me

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

OK, here's the lowdown on the effect of this mod, regardless of if you use the XValve, RT Valve, or the ULT'd XValve. Some variability might exist but this is the rough figure.

Old pull distance of the sear rod=OD
Old pull weight required to push the sear rod=OW
New pull distance of the sear rod=ND
New pull weight required to push the sear rod=NW

OD X OW = ND X NW

So...

XValve only
48oz OW X .3inch OD =20% mod= 57.6oz NW X 0.25inch NP
ULT
15oz OW X .3inch OD =20% mod= 18oz NW X 0.25inch NP

It has to be an even exchange, 20% distance reduction for 20% weight increase. So with the XValve only a .05 inch reduction would add 9.6oz, with the ULT it would only add 3oz.

J+C, the distance figure I included isn't accurate but illustrates the idea with the roughly accurate weight figures. I am not sure what weight/distance ratio is optimal but I'm thinking if it works, a 30% mod would work well. 19.5oz (1lb, 3.5oz) pull and a 30% pull reduction. The fun part... finding exactly where the new hole goes.

[personman]

I saw that thread a while ago about raising the whatsitscalled higher and it looked like a good idea to me. I chuff a little too much with my ULT, so if you guys need someone to test one, you know who to call
also I was wondering if you raised the thigny to the highest point it would go, how short and hard would the trigger pull be? (useless experiment )

[Jack & Coke]

Hey guys...

I stopped by my local paintball store to visit with a few cool guys there. One of the guys, Danny, is young, laid-back, open minded and really cool, can walk his cocker (mech). He pretty good on the trigger!

Since he's not so familiar with mags and the mag trigger, I wanted him to do a blind test of my sear mod. Kinda like a Coke vs Pepsi challenge.

Configuration #1

Stock RT on/off + stock sear

He could not walk the trigger.

But he could twitch/fan the trigger incredibly fast!

NO CHUFF.

I asked him to close his eyes and remember what the trigger feels like. ...to remember the pull length and weight and how fast he could shoot.

Configuration #2

ULT on/off + stock sear

Immediately noticed the softer trigger pull.

He could walk the trigger!

He could also twitch/fan the trigger very fast!

Lots of CHUFF!

He said he liked the soft trigger, but did not know why the gun was malfunctioning (chuff). I told him it was like short stroking his cocker. After that he made a more conscience effort to make complete trigger pull cycles. He chuffed less, but his ROF also went down big time.

Configuration #3

ULT on/off + MOD sear

He could not walk the trigger.

But he could twitch/fan the trigger incredibly fast!

NO CHUFF!!!

He said this set up felt somewhere in between the configuration #1 and #2.

He said he definately noticed the pull was shorter, and crispier.

He said he liked this setup the best.

Although he could not walk the trigger, he said he would give up a few BPS if it ment a greatly reduced chance of chuffing.

From my observation, he was twitching/fanning the trigger about as fast as configuration #1... but with MUCH LESS EFFORT.

He said configuration #3 felt: "just right... short and crisp".

For what it's worth... for those of us who are spoiled by e-triggers, mechanical trigger challenged, and very frustrated with all the chuffing associated with the ULT, maybe a sear MOD like this is the answer...

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

I think it's all about balance, I would LOVE to walk a Mag trigger reliably but with the ULT you can't without risking chuffing, still not light enough and distance is an issue. I frankly think it is the distance and lack of reactivity that drops my single-finger ROF the most and really risks chuffing. So since the amount of work (forceXdistance) required to cycle a Mag is not low enough to shoot alternating fingers, I would rather use a two-finger pull with a real short distance to shoot, even if it means it's not as light as it can be.

Now two reasons AGD might oppose this:

1.) It doesn't follow the Ultra-light engineering principle and marketing schtick but that would be a dumb reason to avoid this if no other reason existed.

2.) By increasing the weight I bet the retro effect strengthens which AGD is rumored to be trying to get away from. I am still convinced there is a way to use it as an advantage and lighten the pull but nothing yet in that arena of thought that has worked.

J+C, glad to hear your friend liked it, no chance you know how much you changed it by (new pull weight/distance compared to original)? I think this idea should definitely go Beta, see how people like it.

And on the pepsi/coke reference, just saw that new vanilla coke vs. pepsi truck ad on TV and just realized... the pepsi truck is bouncing and it's carrying carbonated soda... not smart Hate to be the first person to open one of those.

Anyways, sounds like we got the solution to minimize chuffing. I think the Mag would be more appealing to a first-time user if it had this mod since if they picked a mag up and on shot #2 sends a ball halfway down the barrel and shot #3 hits it and ends up with paint oozing out of the barrel, they would never buy it. Plus in rapid fire it would be much harder to "skip a beat" and chuff.

This allows a compromise between the two trigger pull components that are EQUALLY important: length and weight

[abaez]

Hey jack! Are you going to the socal mini meet this sat? I've got an extra sear lying around I'd pay you a few bux to drill it if you could and let me try this out? Sounds exciting!

Edit: Errr I just saw what you did.. what exactly would you use to measure 15" up the arm to drill the hole?

[Jack & Coke]

I'm not going to be able to make it to this meet... I'll be with the family in Palm Springs.

Regarding the hole... I did not pick 0.15" as a reference to drill. I just guessed where I should drill the hole. I had no idea it was going to be 0.15". After I drilled it, I measured it with my digital calipers and it was 0.15".

I'll try 0.20" on my next sear.

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

Hey J+C, just wondering is that 0.15" from the pivot point or making the hole .15" CLOSER to the center? I would definitely say closer is better so .1" from the center would be nasty. Still got my 50% mod in mind, got to work on it.

Everybody, here is a link, it relates to this somewhat:
https://www.automags.org/forums/showt...threadid=97625
The spring idea in this thread is shot for now, but the idea of a concave sear tip to allow less pull distance but due to the wider sear tip, still distribute the bolt pressure equally and actually reduce chipping. Check it out but please keep ideas related to it in the other thread if they don't apply to this one. J+C, you know I would value your input in that as well. If this can reduce the distance needed to be equal to that which the ULT on/off requires to cycle (as noted by it's ability to go into runaway with too many shims and catch the sear tip in the process) while distributing the pressure put on the bolt so chipping doesn't happen, we can reduce the pull without increasing the weight then use your idea J+C to reduce it even further. Let me know your thoughts and I look forward to hearing what happens with your next sear.

[Jack & Coke]

Originally posted by QUINCYMASSGUY


Hey J+C, just wondering is that 0.15" from the pivot point or making the hole .15" CLOSER to the center?

The 0.15" measurement is the distance between the new hole and the original hole.

[Fuji]

Not to be too nitpicky. I was wondering if you meant 0.15" from the center of the hole or from the edge of the hole? I don't have the tools at present to complete this mod, but it does have my attention.

[xrancid_milkx]

Originally posted by Jack & Coke
Your assumption is correct!

The ULT is what makes this mod attractive... at least to me

So without a ULT, this mod would make a shorter, heavier pull (xvlave/retro).

Heres my question, by making the trigger pull smaller, would it make it easier to get trigger bounce with an xvalve/retro if marker did not have ULT mod?

(Note I have very little knowledge about anything and everything when it comes to moding a marker)
I thought since the pull force was increased, so would the return force for the sear, allowing trigger bounce much easier. If this was the case, it would be a fun mod for rec-play. But knowing my knowledge on this subject, I couldn't farther from being right

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

Yes, you are right, pull weight/retro weight is roughly 1:3, so if the pull is 4lbs, the retro could be up to 12lbs and could open the door for bounce. That is why using it with the ULT would probably be the optimal setup for tourneys. It will still be exceptionally lower than the 9lb return of the former on/off but would be more than the 15oz pull's. If we did a 20% mod, it would probably add about 9oz of return force which could help reduce chuffing but not be so much that it'll cause issues.

[pbgunrunner]

one positive effect that you may have failed to consider is how your body reacts to the heavier trigger pull. One of the ways I get around newbies short-stroking cockers is to add a bit more sear/lug engagement, thus requiring more pressure to fire the gun, then, since it takes a bit for your body to respond and "stop pulling" the trigger as the sear breaks, your muscle contraction automatically finishes the stroke. The heavier the pull, the harder the contraction and the longer the delay in relaxing the muscles. Your making the lever less effective increases the bio-mechanical force needed to pull the trigger thus limiting your ability to short stroke. Great solution to a nagging problem, keep up the good work!

[MattG]

JACK AND COKE YOU ARE THE JESUS OF PAINTBALL!! BE MY FATHER PLEASE!!! NICE WORK MY BOY!!!!