Boltless markers. Wave of the future or just another fad?

[hitmanng]

I just wandered what people thought about boltless markers ie the Epic. I see advantages and disadvantages. What do all of you think about them??
Thanks
Hitmanng

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"I would rather hit once than miss 140 times."

[manike]

Lots to think about here... I think the current designs available are a fad. I don't see any advantages that really outweigh the disadvantages.

Ok starting with the epic. The trapdoor has to have a thickness which is above the breech diameter (i.e. the top of the ball where it sits) as compared to a bolt being the same diameter as the ball... This means any ball falling in starts from higher up (by the diameter of the trap door) this won't help feeding. but what may be worse is the effect as talked about in FC where the bolt comes forwards and bobbles balls up the tube. With the Epic the second ball will be stacked on the first, the trap door has to go between the two and so is forcing the second ball and the whole stack above it up the feed tube... possibly not a good thing.

With things like the nova... well I don't see any advantage to having a large reciprocating mass instead of a small one... moving a larger mass will take more energy and it has more momentum to impart on a ball were it to only part feed... *chop*

What do you as a customer see as the advantages to these systems?

manike

[hitmanng]

I must agree the 2 boltless markers on the market have issues but what about the idea. I like no bolt. No large moving part as it were. Just a puff (big puff) of air. It seem easier on the balls and almost chop resistant. I am not even sure why I like since I have neither of these issues very often with a bolt it just appeals.
Hitmanng

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"I would rather hit once than miss 140 times."

[Cha0tic]

i like the idea of no bolt too, but it is only a fad. take the epic. it is a great idea but the problem with the trap door is that it can't cycle very fast. i read somewhere that 6bps was its maximum cycling rate. the nova was a great gun too. it was easy to chop but that was fixed by the nova ET (electronic trigger)

[beam]

Where can one learn more about this Epic marker you all talk about?

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Intricate are you among the masses.... PAX217

[wyn1370]

anybody have a link to a picture or article about one of these?


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retro mini

And shepherds we shall be
For thee My Lord for thee
Power hath descended forth from thy hand
That our feet may swiftly carry out thy command
So we shall flow a river forth to thee
And teeming with souls shall it ever be
In nomine patre, at file, spiritus sancte.

- MacManus Family Prayer

[mykroft]

beam: check out the review in this months APG, it's the usual love-fest, but there's some good info in it. Personally I think boltless markers, as currently seen, are a fad. just look at the performance difference between the matrix and the epic, which both use the same valve design, the matrix using a bolt, and the epic using a trap-door. The bolt design is higher performing right now. The other problem being that the makers of the boltless designs have designed non-upgradeable markers, look at the epic, with the integrated bottom-line, no drop-forwards, aftermarket regs and all the other fun things that people expect to be able to add to a marker in that price-range.

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Mykroft Holmes IV
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My Mags:
CF11023, Classic Feed, 16" CP .689, 14" JnJ Stainless, Ring trigger, WGP Reg, Diamond Labs Ti Reg Adjuster.

VV00614(Valve)/VV00423(reg), Black Teflon HR Powerfeed, 16" SP AA, Benchy 1x Chrome, Benchy Crossfire cradle/on-off, black foregrip, Macroline.
PMI 48/3K Preset HPA


"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch" R.A.Heinlein - 'The Moon is a Harsh Mistress'

[hitmanng]

The web page is here for the Epic:

http://www.icepaintball.com/

Hitmanng

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"I would rather hit once than miss 140 times."

[automagkid]

actually its a good idea, you could prob get more rof with out a bolt having to recock and fire, less ball breakage too. its a good idea, but it probably needs to be perfected, prbably a gas hog too lol


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"AND THATS ALL I HAVE TO SAY ABOUT THAT." Forest Gump


"to have the edge is not to have the technology, but the experience"
automag classic s\f with polished boddy & 12 in j&j brass barrel, kapp forgrip & dz2 drop forward. www.geocities.com/automagkid1

[This message has been edited by automagkid (edited 07-21-2001).]

[mykroft]

automagkid: You need to replace the bolt with something that closes the breech, in order for the air to push the ball in the correct direction with consistent energy. The two solutions for this that have come up, ie: the Epic's trap door and the Nova's articulated barrel, are inherently slower than a bolt, as they both must move more mass than it takes to simply move a light bolt.

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Mykroft Holmes IV
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My Mags:
CF11023, Classic Feed, 16" CP .689, 14" JnJ Stainless, Ring trigger, WGP Reg, Diamond Labs Ti Reg Adjuster.

VV00614(Valve)/VV00423(reg), Black Teflon HR Powerfeed, 16" SP AA, Benchy 1x Chrome, Benchy Crossfire cradle/on-off, black foregrip, Macroline.
PMI 48/3K Preset HPA


"There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch" R.A.Heinlein - 'The Moon is a Harsh Mistress'

[paintballpark187]

in a way, the EPIC is like a cocker... The cocker never hits the ball (closed bolt) and neither does the epic, andthe epic has somewhat of a bolt (7 hole airflow)

[keebler]

i see a big disadvantage in the epic. the style of drop forward you have to have. at least that is a disadvantage for me, i dont like them.

[magman007]

ok but think of this barely any moving parts plut it takes cocker barrels. with no moving parts its gonna have better accuracy. it has alittle lower bps but so do regular mags. if you remember fron the tape tom said that the fastest trigger finger he ever saw (yes i know the tape if from 1991) was sandmans. he said that sandman could squeese out 9 bps. in the tae he olny did 7. so the gun baisivcally is a much more stable sniper gun. it is easy to fet a good shot with. my teemate has one and i love it. it is so light and it dosnt move what so ever!. its a great gun. i just think you guys need to try one before you all say that it is just a fad.

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automagverb)1to eliminate from a paintball game, 2to be better than a spray and prey player with a cocker or angel, 3to kick some major arse

[X-Plosive]

the gun may be great but we are commenting on bolt vs no-bolt. Isn't the whole "fewer moving parts give you better accuracy" a myth? Wasn't that just the advertising capmaign they used to sell pump guns?

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Taking mags apart is fun, its even more fun when you don't know what you're doing

Ohh yeah and Tunaman sorry for all the stress and all the things I've broken.

*If corn oil is made of corn, what is baby oil made of?*

[slayer]

I have a crazy idea. put the gas source, like in the warp and have gas blow the ball through the warp and out the barrel or something.
I told you it was crazy