My idea (or half idea) for a closed bolt automag

[The Creature]

alright magman, before you go shooting your mouth off with senseless crap why don't you first read what i wrote. i did mention that i used compressed air for all guns. each gun had a Nitro Duct tank 68ci/3000psi. and for each test I shot the gun, i did not shoot WITH my friend, i physically took his gun over a crono and shot it. at the beginning of the day he was having velocity spikes, he used it and wore in the o-rings until he was remaining consistant, then i did the test. so shut your mouth with this useless crap trying to flame my experiment.

[The Creature]

Originally posted by magman007
fourth off, you seem way to influenced by hype, and that you did not research your material. go look on warpig, they did a closebolt vs open bolt comparison and found no difference.

Also i ask you, why are some of the most popular markers open bolted? (Angel, timmy, mag, bushy, impy....) if it was so bad, do you think people would use them? do you think companies would spend thousands of dollars producing something that wasnt goping to satisy the consumer?

i am not influenced by the hype, i took the cocker and shot it and see how it did compared to my mag, tippmann, xtra, compact and flash. the cocker preformed the best.

and at no point did i say that angels, timmys, bushys, impys, or mags were bad...you are putting words in my mouth in a desperate attempt to make me look like an idiot. now i sit here defending myself against things i never said, thanks, i hope you feel special now.

[magman007]

Originally posted by The Creature


you are putting words in my mouth in a desperate attempt to make me look like an idiot.

Well, i didnt make you look like an idiot, you did it your self. And yes, i do feel special, because i know the truth.

First off, you have to bench test the markers. ANd some one already did that. And once he got the real results (the ones you didnt want to hear) you dismissed them. HAve Blue has been testing things in the paintball industry for some time, and has dispelled alot of the myths. Also, Mr. Bill Mills of warpig tested that closed bolt, vs open bolt didnt matter. ok? soyou look stupid here, trying to prove evidence wrong, this stuff may float over in PBC and PBN but not here, not where we have the cold hard evidence. It is physics my friend, look into them.

[MAGician]

Originally posted by Gambit22
Oh, Jesus. That's his proof.

Have you ever thought that perhaps the reason why the Cocker doesn't jump as much is because it uses a ram to recock rather than an unregulated burst of air?And that the blowback burst is normally around 800 psi, compared to 100 psi? Cockers DO have blowback, violent blowback if they are mistimed.

Exactly the operation is the same as a semiauto firearm
AND closed bolts are more accurate because it closes of the firing chamber. As for the 30 yd test between open and closed thats like pitting a rifle(semi auto) against a handgun and at that distance there aint much difference.( Both guns would have to be shooting the SAME exact ammo.)
At say 50 or 60 yds. there would be a massive difference

[Gambit22]

Open bolts seal off the breech before firing too, you know, if that's what you're implying. At any distance it will not make a difference.

[magman007]

ok, you people are incredibly thick headed. We told you that you are wrong and you reffuse to accept it. THen we tell you to test it correctly and you keep telling us but this and but that. well give up already. also look at this.


open bolt. open:closed: open:closed: open:closed: open:closed
closes bolt. Closed: open:closed: open:closed:


NOtice a difference? no, the bolts act the same in rapid firing. GIVE IT UP you are wrong. OK? tell me exactally why you are not wrong. tell me with correctly conducted experiments. tell me relating to physics how exactally a closed bolt marker can be more accurate. TELL me. there is no way. THank you. Deep Blue was created for intelligent threads, this one was, until you started crapping it up. If you wish to become respected members, learn your facts, then if you have something intelligent, and not ignorant, please post it for all to see


also, if you kknew your markers, you would know that mags use a return spring instead of unregulated air to recock

[Vegeta]

Lets look at the operations here:

Cocker:
Closed-Fire-Open-Repeat.

Mag:
Open-Closed-Fire-Repeat.

You misunderstand the operation of hte mag. The gun does not fire directly after pulling hte trigger. It fires at the END of the bolt stroke when the piston opens the powertube and gas exits. At the end of the bolt travel the bolt is sealed in the barrel. The only diffrence is the orded in which is it performed.


Cocker:
.......-Closed-Fire-Open-Closed-Fire-Open-Closed-Fire-Open

Mag:
Open-Closed-Fire-Open-Closed-Fire-Open-Closed-Fire-Open


Let's look at those side by side:

.......-Closed-Fire-Open-Closed-Fire-Open-Closed-Fire-Open
Open-Closed-Fire-Open-Closed-Fire-Open-Closed-Fire-Open


Same thing. The only diffrence is the time of the gas release. The cocker's is at the beginning, and hte mag's is at the end of the bolt stroke.

[The Creature]

ok, tell me exactly what you would have to do to a stock minimag to make it preform exactly like a stock vert 2002 autococker. and if any one of you fools dares to tell me that the stock mag will be as accurate as a stock cocker i will come to your house and slap you up side the head for being an idiot.

[Vegeta]

You.




Idiot.











.I don't think I am the thickheaded one here. it has been proven in tests that they shoot exactly the same. Equal distance and equal accuracy WHEN and ONLY WHEN the expiriment is performed under controlled conditions. that means same barrels same velocity same mounting same input pressure same tank same everything.

[The Creature]

alright, so tell me EXACTLY what to make each thing for the cocker and for the mag and i will go do it. if they work identicle i will be happy to have gotten my mag to work that way, and will come back and post my results proving myself wrong. if it doesn't work, then you can bite me

[MAGician]

Originally posted by magman007
ok, you people are incredibly thick headed. We told you that you are wrong and you reffuse to accept it. THen we tell you to test it correctly and you keep telling us but this and but that. well give up already. also look at this.


open bolt. open:closed: open:closed: open:closed: open:closed
closes bolt. Closed: open:closed: open:closed:


NOtice a difference? no, the bolts act the same in rapid firing. GIVE IT UP you are wrong. OK? tell me exactally why you are not wrong. tell me with correctly conducted experiments. tell me relating to physics how exactally a closed bolt marker can be more accurate. TELL me. there is no way. THank you. Deep Blue was created for intelligent threads, this one was, until you started crapping it up. If you wish to become respected members, learn your facts, then if you have something intelligent, and not ignorant, please post it for all to see


also, if you kknew your markers, you would know that mags use a return spring instead of unregulated air to recock

SO wut if i'm worng geez u make it sound like its the end of the world or somthin. lightin up a little magman. i doubt if you've never been worng before. SO FORGIVE ME FOR SPEAKIN MY MIND!!!!

[billmi]

Originally posted by Have Blue
I disagree that closed bolt offers no advantages - A closed bolt system should provide a more stable firing platfrom, as you have less mass being flung around before the ball is actually fired - compare the moving mass of a Viking (bolt and hammer) vs. an Excalibur (just the hammer).

That is a generalization that while often true, is not always true. It has to do with specific paintgun design, and not bolt position.

For example, the Delrin blow forward bolt in a Sidekick Semi weighs less than most metal Autococker hammers.

Moving mass (both speed and weight come into play here for total intertia) compared to still mass (i.e. movement generated by a heavy part can be off-set by a heavy receiver dampening it out) before firing can have a negative effect on accuracy for a single, handheld shot.

That doesn't apply much to a typical paintball situation though where players tend to shoot strings of multiple shots. In that situation, total moving mass vs. still mass will affect accuracy if it happens before or after the shot is fired, because when it happens after a shot, it is happening before the next shot.

See you on the field,
-Bill Mills

[billmi]

Originally posted by
Since the bolt is closed when the gas is released, your velocity will be more consistant from shot to shot in cockers and the like, unlike say, an angel or bushmaster.

The bolt is also closed in Bushmasters, Automags, Angels, Spyders, and other open bolt paintguns when the gas is released.

The terms "open bolt" and "closed bolt" refer to bolt position at rest between shots, not bolt position when the gas is released.

See you on the field,
-Bill Mills

[billmi]

Originally posted by
I agree, there is not much of difference in accuracy at 30 yds. But what about at 50 yds? Then that extra gas that doesn't go down the barrel might mean the difference between an elimination and a miss.

If that extra gas did go down the barrel, the velocity would be higher, and you'd have to adjust the paintgun to eliminate that "extra gas" (i.e. tune down the velocity).

See you on the field,
-Bill Mills

[billmi]

Originally posted by
Howdy. My theory is that the closed bolt design puts that gas that would normally exit through the elbow behind the ball, giving it better velocity. Thanks for giving you opinions! IB.

That makes perfect sense Bill.

If all paingun valves put out the exact same amount of gas when fired, you would have an advantage to having a bolt/recock system that is more gas efficient (not that open bolt is necessarily less efficient, but many blowback open bolt paintguns do waste gas up the feedneck as you have noticed). The better paintguns would have more velocity and thus better range.

The problem with that theory is two fold. First not all paintgun valves are the same. Secondly, on most paintguns the velocity is adjustable. Since paintball velocities, for safety reasons are limited to 300 fps, and most paintguns are capable or reaching and exceeding this limit, there is no "velocity advantage" to closed bolt paintguns.

See you on the field,
-Bill Mills