tournaments, bad for the sport?

**Potatoboy** · 09-28-2001, 07:53 PM

**OldSchoolMag** · 09-28-2001, 10:07 PM

I think that tournaments are either going to demolish the sport or build it up to the point where every man, woman and dog owns a marker.

Currently, I don't play tournaments. Why? Cheating. I refuse to PAY to play against a group of people who feel the only fun to be had in probably one of the most equalizing, exhillerating, adrenalin-pumping sports is by unequaling the planes, by wiping, shooting hot, and others.

I don't see how people can actually enjoy KNOWING you're going win? I mean, winning is important in some aspects of sports, but when was the last time you fell screaming to the ground throwing a fit when you lost a scrimmage? When I watch some of these videos, I see grown men (I'm 15, you see) cursing at refs, opposition, and at times, their own team members. I mean, when you start cursing at your OWN team members - friends, and at time, family - losing would have to be one of your smallest problems.

Something allowing this to grow is the rules and refs. Granted, I like refs - we need them. Problem is, not all of them enforce the rules, and rules vary from tourny to tourny, confusing ref, player, and spectator. We need A) a set of rules for all tournaments, B) Stricter punishments - for players AND refs. A ref is seldom in on a scam, but it happens. And as bad as player cheating is (and it is BAD), ref cheating out ranks this 10 to 1. It betrays the trust in a tournament, the sponsors, and overall, the sport. If I was playing a tourny, and there was a ref who was cheating, and it was exposed, I'd be pissed - and I'd want action. I'd want that ref disqualified from refing any major tourny, minor tourny, and even a birthday-party rec game. And for the players - if a player is caught cheating, ban the team. I know this will seem harsh, but think of it this way - team A cheats, player 1 is caught, replaced, cheating continues. Unless STRICT rules are enplaced, I only see paintball in a downward spiral. None of this "Please stop wiping, sir" - when a batter corks a bat, would you say "Please don't do that, it's cheating" and let him on his way? No - he'd be suspended, his character tarnished, and most likely, bring the demise to his career. What happens in our sport - you ask.

This doesn't just offend me, it sickens me. I see a sport full of possibility, able to grow to emmense proportions, and because some yahoo with a marker wipes and makes it to the big leagues, everyone thinks they can do the same, ruining the sport for those who invest effort, time, patience, and money. Problem is, people don't have standards or morals about it - if someone on your team is cheating, they're off - no questions, no arguing. I'd kick my star player if I caught him wiping. I want to play - that's my priority. If he wants to win, go enter some codes and play a video game. If I saw another team cheating in a tourny, I'd never play that tournament again until said team was banned or other adaquate measures were taken.

This is a touchy subject - most people aren't willing to enact such changes, kick their best friend off the team, correct the ref, stand up to the power - until it happens, nothing will change, and all our talk will be for naught. I forsee a big clash in the near future about this very subject, but you've gotta wonder - what side will win?

**FooTemps** · 09-28-2001, 10:42 PM

I read the first paragraph or so of all your posts to this and I've never been to a tourney but it seems like most people who play at tourneys aren't really paintball enthusiusts...
I play on my tennis team and I'm not that good. I have a teammate that swears at everyone and everything. He just can't deal with the thought of losing and it really bothers me. Just today he was stringing swear words right infront of 6 or 7 year old kids.
People need to realize that paintball or infact, any sport is not only about the glory of winning. Most of those troublemakers don't understand that and that really pisses me off.

**AkaEnder** · 09-29-2001, 12:09 AM

I too feel that tournament play will either make or break the sport on a competitive level.

Several things have got to happen for paintball to ever become a more recognized sport.

1) big name sponsers = big money
2) paintball referee union - paid individuals who maintain no relationship to any team or field.
3) player leagues that are governed by a board of directors. capable of banning, suspending and fining players for poor conduct.
4) teams forming by division and all following the same set of roster rules.

Until these things happen, I dont think we'll ever see paintball on ESPN Sports Center.
As it stands there are too many people who percieve paintball in a negative light - so until some sort of order comes around its up to US the players to set an example for others to follow and police the bad examples as best we can.

**slayer** · 09-29-2001, 01:19 AM

I think it is also very important for marker manufacturers to stick to certain restrictions after they make them. I don't think electro markers should come with any mode other than semi from the factory. I know that people will complain, but when there is a trigger that light, there is no legitimate reason to set a gun on full auto, or burst. Tournaments don't allow it, and playing in a rec game when you have your gun on full auto, against a bunch of people with rentals isn't exactly very fair .

PS: I didn't think everyone could post in deep blue. What is up with that?

**OldSchoolMag** · 09-29-2001, 09:23 AM

Originally posted by AkaEnder

1) big name sponsers = big money
2) paintball referee union - paid individuals who maintain no relationship to any team or field.
3) player leagues that are governed by a board of directors. capable of banning, suspending and fining players for poor conduct.
4) teams forming by division and all following the same set of roster rules.

I agree with these things, but the problem is, paintball is not a sport that can support its own rederee union - that's why I agree with 3 and 4 more than 2 - we need a stricter set of rules, which all aspects of paintball can follow, being goverened by one body able to amend rules, suspend/expell teams, etc. We're all on the right track - someone should send all this to the NPPL. I'd say they'd be the people to put this in action; organize all the tourny leaders, and have the major tournaments modify their rules to be one and the same, and set up a board to govern paintball. I don't see it happening tomorrow, but it's gotta happen sometime.

**ShinyGuy** · 09-29-2001, 06:14 PM

While it probably is too much to ask to have profesional refs at this point, some form of acreditation (sp?) process would help alot. It wouldn't be hard register refs and have some method for players and spectators to file a complaint against unfair refs. Good refs can be pretty fair even when they're friends with the players (and most of them are). The problem is that it's too hard to weed out the few bad ones.

Overall, I agree we need #3 and 4. Once we have that #1 and 2 will happen in due time.

**PsychoMag** · 10-02-2001, 06:53 AM

I regularly play local tournaments, working my way up to regional and national events next year.

I can say this. I have watched and observed major events such as NPPL, WPF, and APL leagues. Teams ride the penalty points to their advantage. For example, in NPPL, you have the oportunity to take 5 points and walk off the field if you are shooting hot. Well, if you are nailing the opponent from across the field, snag the flag and go on to win, what 5 points as compared to 60 or 100 depending on div.? I have regularly seen markers coming off the field shooting 325+. How do I as a captain of a team that practices good-sportsmanshiplike conduct compete with a cheating team? I have witnessed referees wiping paint for friends on an opposing team, and refs giving bad calls to see that "their" sister teams win. I have played for 10+ years, and until lately, I loved the tourney scene. Now with every plaqyer shooting Angels, being able to switch left to right ont the fly, and most of todays players can shoot from any position on the field, they resort to some form of cheating just to get the advantage. They hide behind these super markers and feel invincible.

When I goggled a girl on an opposing team, saw the hit clearly and she ducked, and reappeared clean. I knew times have changed. I called a ref and they saw nothing. whaddaya do? suck it up and get em harder next time which I did. Was getting my RT Pro to sweeten up on her right? no i dont think so, but when I was finished, I dumped 100 balls on her, and i would say 75% hit her full on. Do we have to resort to this? I didnt even realize I was still pulling when I was out of paint. I was so aggrivated and frustrated with the scene lately that I just totally saturated her with paint. I felt bad, her whole side of her body was bruised. Cant wipe that...

Hopefully good will prevail, or I will just go back to recball and scenarios because there is no chance I am going to continue to subject good players to these conditions. I may just be one man, with one team, but if enough teams form together, maybe something will happen, if not, the tourney scene will, in my opinion, suffer greatly.

**Mark Devine** · 10-03-2001, 05:34 PM

As a matter of fact

As we speak, a little know league in the State of Maine is doing exactly what you people speak of. The Maine Recreational Paintball League (MRPL) is in the process of putting together a circuit different from any other in paintball, at least as far as I know. The Maine Amateur Circuit is a series of 5 tournaments, all held at different MRPL fields. This circuit stresses fair play. There is no swearing, no cheating, no coaching, no unsportsmanlike conduct of any find. There is a 25 point penalty for swearing, 25 points for playing on plus minus one player, wiping is considered a forfeit of a match, a second wiping offense gets a team kicked from the tourney and if the MRPL deams necessary they are kicked from the circuit, crono penalties range from 1 to 50 points depending how hot the shot is- 30fps over gets you minus 50 points, the unsportsmanlike conduct penalty is issued at the Ultimate Judge's discrecion and can be as much as 100 points.

The penalties are stiff, but everyone knows they are only as good as the refs. If you have bad refs, penalties make no difference. For the first year, the entire circuit is reffereed by my team, Maine Thunder. We have reffereed numerous tournaments and have experience playing in national events. We know all about bad refs. We also have 12 members which means plenty of refs on the field. Players won't even have that split second to wipe. Thunder is not one of these big name teams either. We have no loyalty to anyone, which means no biassed calls. We only care about making a high quality, non-cheating circuit. In future years, the event is going to be reffereed by the MRPL's tournament trained refs. These refs pass extensive reffing and safety courses, including classroom and on field training.

At the end of the circuit, all MRPL teams, players, and families are invited to a banquet at which prizes are handed out, the years is reviewed, thanks are given, and everyone has a good time.

What is great about the Maine Amateur Circuit is that it is not about making money. It is about the players. The MRPL is a non-profit organization and doesn't care about money. They care about making paintball fun and safe. They want to "spread the word" about paintball.

I'm posting this to let you know that new tournament series are in the works. This is only a small circuit, meant for players in Maine and northern New England, but I think it is a big step. Hopefully when others see that this is the way it should be they will start to catch on. Hopefully in a few years all tournaments can be about fairplay, sportsmanship, and having fun, instead of about winning and money.

Want some info on the MRPL? Check out www.MRPL.org
Email me if you have questions or comments, I would love to hear them. [email protected]

**slayer** · 10-03-2001, 10:48 PM

Originally posted by PsychoMag

When I goggled a girl on an opposing team, saw the hit clearly and she ducked, and reappeared clean. I knew times have changed. I called a ref and they saw nothing. whaddaya do? suck it up and get em harder next time which I did. Was getting my RT Pro to sweeten up on her right? no i dont think so, but when I was finished, I dumped 100 balls on her, and i would say 75% hit her full on. Do we have to resort to this? I didnt even realize I was still pulling when I was out of paint. I was so aggrivated and frustrated with the scene lately that I just totally saturated her with paint. I felt bad, her whole side of her body was bruised. Cant wipe that...

Was it right...yes it was in my opinion. Its like this, your goal in the game was to eliminate that player at that time. IF you really hit her with 75 paintballs and she didn't call herself out she was either A. mentally retarded and should not have been allowed to even hold a paintball marker B. cheating, so you shot her till she was out(that is what I do, because some people don't like calling themselves out) or C. a masochist, and hey I am not going to get into that :)
If it was me, I would have painted my name on her for wiping(and my first name is 9 letters long), when prizes are up for grabs. It is OK to play hard, and it is ok to not know you got hit and play on, but it is entirely wrong and against the sport to wipe.

**DarkPhoenix** · 10-06-2001, 08:16 AM

I see tournaments as being good for our sport. The bad things about tournaments is the lack of good, unbiased marshalling/refereeing. If we as a sport demand a separate entity to judge the competitions fairly, the sport will be all the better for it. Another thing I would support would be a change in the format. I like woods ball and speedball, as well. I think that in order for a team to call itself the best, the team would have to excell at all types of paintball gaming. Since the sport is mostly played by recballers, the introduction of a woods field in the format would have a tendency to draw this crowd.

**z_mann_z** · 10-09-2001, 07:28 PM

A card system?

I think that every tourney player in a series like NPPL or something should have a running record of their performnce and actions on the field. Refs could be added into each game with a sheet for each team playing. As the teams compete, anything outstanding could be written down for that player on his teams sheet. The refs could use a card system to punish players. I.E. plaer x of team splatterwipe gets pissed at a ref and shoots him on purpose. That player recieves a card of a certain color that represents the severity of his actions. There could be a color code for different levels of actions. Minor rules broken could carry a light penalty, and for light penalties they get yellow cards. Extremely severe actions could warrant recieving a red card that cause the player to be removed from the game. Cards recieved would be recorded on the aforementioned sheet and teams that have so many yellow or red cards could be penalized for these cards by being restricted or removed from the series or tourney. This system would take a little mental work to get down, but once it was set into writing and enforced, I think players might watch themselves more closely for fear of being penalized later. At the field I ref at, I remove players from the game or possibly the field for causing trouble or being disrespectful to others and refs. It is sometimes hard to penalize fellow players for something like that because of fear of losing that player or other things, but I think it must be done. I too don't like tourneys because of the unsporting conduct, and I think everyone should work to stop it, not just officials. Thats all I have to say about that. You can the mike back on.

**jessica** · 10-10-2001, 05:52 AM

conduct

Paintball players who compete need to behave as if national television cameras were on them at all times. And those who conduct themselves in an unsportsmanlike manner need to be penalized, put on probation, or suspended. Every major set of rules in paintball has penalties that could be applied.

**AdrenalineMag** · 10-12-2001, 03:14 PM

Player Discipline

alright, i believe that bad sportsmanship and cheating are just wrong, they exist in all sports and theres nothing we can do to stop it. we can, however, penalize the player who commits the unsportsmanlike move.

first ill start with wiping, why would you?? whats the point of winning something like the world cup, or skyball, if everyone knows you cheated, including you. i am one of the people that is strongly against wiping, i once got a longball at a scenario game that broke on a metal part on my shoe, it was barely noticeble, but i knew it it was a hit. wiping it never even crossed my mind, i just put my plug in and left the field. another case was at the field i work at, i saw some guy with like 4 or 5 breaks sityting behind his bunker with his $2000 angel setup, and he wiped them all and continued firing, so i ran over and told him he was out, he tried to debate, but little 5'4" me really got on his 6'1" *** and let him know what i thought about what he was doing, i threatened to kick him out for the day (i dont know if my boss would let me, but hey he didnt know that) and i also mentioned he was no better than the renter who hit him, this got him particularily mad, and he decided to leave for the day. as a ref and a spectator i see many instances of wiping during games, the ones i catch i call out, and the ones that debate the call, i continue to yell at. a little favor i would like to ask, if you see someone wipe, talk to the refs about it and let them know to keep an eye on so-and-so you think hes cheating or something of that sort.

also, swearing is just something that happens, most people are introduced to it usually by the time their 8 or 9 at the latest, its just something that happens, a little "oh f-bomb, my gun is messed up" i dont mind, but if theyre yelling and swearing at someone i do mind that, hey its just a game, if you have something u want to discuss bring it up with a ref between games, otherwise you can wait to play next game.

speaking of yelling at people, yelling at refs should be handled seriously, if you have a point you want to make take it up with the head ref after the game, but this doesnt mean you should yell and swear at them. just like in football, if a player vulgarly or physically insults a refferee that player can be fined and ejected from the game. so if a player debates a call with a ref while yelling at them and shoving them, they should be suspended for a certain amount of games i believe.

thanks for reading my view on these topics, and i think its a great idea to have a forum to discuss certain angles of the game, not just guns and equipment, remember, if we want more people to join, kepp it a spectator friendly sport, because its not how many times you wiped that wins a tourney

tournaments, bad for the sport?

tournaments, bad for the sport?

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